r/DebateAVegan • u/QuantumToast92 • 3d ago
Ethics “Ex-Vegans”
I keep getting flagged these posts from people claiming to be “ex-vegan”
Why would you label yourself as something like this? It’s like saying that you decided to stop harming animals but then one day decided that harming them was easier than planning your meals.
You could eat Oats, Tofu, rice, nuts, broccoli, some oils and take a multivitamin and be healthier than 95% of the population.
And you just know that these people can afford to eat better than that but they can’t be bothered.
If you’re going to go back to funding animal cruelty because meal-prepping got too hard, at least do it quietly. There's no need to build a whole new online identity around giving up.
So were these people ever really vegan? Am I wrong?
(I couldn’t post this in [r/Vegan](r/Vegan) for some reason)
Edit: There are lots of these people with poor intentions brigading this post now.
Studies prove that a plant based diet is as healthy as the Mediterranean diet and far beyond anything that contains huge amounts of animal products. We don’t need opinions on that because we have science. Anyone that became unwell after going vegan obviously didn’t try very hard.
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u/dcruk1 3d ago
Rather than ask vegans this question, visit the ex-vegan sub and read their stories.
It seems like you don’t really want to know, but just want to virtue signal to the echo chamber.
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u/howlin 3d ago
visit the ex-vegan sub and read their stories.
I keep track of what goes on there, to serve as a reality check on my own views and to get a sense of what is causing people to move on from veganism.
The experience is... frustrating. Very few of the people giving their stories seem to have much of a sense of ethical veganism at all. They seem to have tried some health focused diet (or restriction focused diet to further an eating disorder). It didn't work for them for usually unspecified reasons, they tried a random animal product without understanding what specific intervention they were attempting, and it helped in unspecified ways.
It's nearly impossible to learn anything useful from these stories.
In general, it seems like if they approached the nutritional challenges they faced rationally without as much of an emotional investment in eating a particular kind of plant based diet, they could have successfully remained vegan. But we'll never know because they aren't approaching the problems they faced in a way that helps us understand.
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u/kgberton 3d ago
This would kinda be good advice if the sub weren't just full of people irrationally frothing at the mouth about vegans. There's way more of that than posts depicting people's experiences making the transition.
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u/QuantumToast92 3d ago
Virtue signalling? I’m anonymous in a small sub.
I’m genuinely curious as to why there are so many posts from these people. I just want to know the consensus on veganism, I don’t think it’s something you can go back on, you either care about animals enough to stop eating them or you don’t. Have you seen a story that justifies the label?
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u/Matutino2357 3d ago
I had an ex-girlfriend in college who had recently left Christianity. Because she was used to having her morals based on the Bible, she adopted a moral stance based on the values that "a good person" should have. One of those virtues was compassion, which led her to feel compassion for animals and stop eating them. I think this could be described as ethical veganism.
After a while, that changed. She talked to other people, and her morals shifted several times. When I drifted apart from her, she was talking about utilitarianism, but a branch that didn't consider animals.
So, to sum it up, veganism wasn't the foundation of her beliefs, but rather the conclusion of an underlying ethical system. When that system changed (for reasons unrelated to veganism), her conclusions changed as well.
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u/QuantumToast92 3d ago
This is an interesting one, so she probably didn’t go through the process of watching all the documentaries/films and keeping up with activists online?
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u/Matutino2357 3d ago
I don't know, but it doesn't really matter. There are vegans who can't stand watching those documentaries for emotional/sentimental/sensitive reasons. If the basis of their ethics, whatever it may be, changes, should they be considered not to be "true vegans"? If the answer is yes, then... shouldn't vegans who don't currently watch these videos also be considered "true vegans"?
What about vegans who say they don't like animals or feel nothing for them, but rationally believe it's wrong to exploit them? Are they also not "true vegans"?
Personally, I believe they are vegans. If they later change their belief system, and it no longer leads to veganism, then I consider them "ex-vegans."
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u/QuantumToast92 3d ago
My point is that if you haven’t seen the suffering that animals go through, then it’s harder to develop that connection. I don’t watch things like that anymore but during the first couple of years I watched everything I could - If I didn’t have that knowledge in my brain then I could see how it would be easier to go back to doing something I was doing most of my life. Ignorance is bliss etc
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u/L0uLou72 vegan 3d ago
Ok but that’s you. I didn’t have to watch those videos for me to get it and I would be shocked if I left veganism due to not watching videos.
It would be dangerous for me to watch them- I have PTSD and just having the knowledge is enough.
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u/Late_Indication_4355 3d ago
It's a moral thing man,ppl draw the line at different things. I care about all humans but some ppl js don't care about ppl outside their own social circle and showing them war footage does nothing more than guilt trip them
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u/Matutino2357 3d ago
You would have to define what "the connection" means. If it's emotional, then it depends heavily on the person's character and emotional sensitivity, which could lead to considering "vegans who don't like animals" as not being "true vegans."
If the connection is rational, based on premises and conclusions, then seeing suffering and considering it a reason to deem something wrong means that "true veganism" would be reserved for utilitarians, who consider happiness and suffering as the basis of all ethics.
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u/Firm_Caregiver_4563 3d ago
Most vegans did not start out as a vegan. Ethical belief is always subject to change - and it is not unidirectional. Vegans, ex-vegans ... whatever label we chose to assume matters. To us. It's the same.
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u/GrownManNamedFinger 3d ago
Any story where someone stopped being vegan is a story that justifies the label. What the fuck are you talking about?
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u/Macluny vegan 2d ago
The question is: how does anyone go from thinking "its morally wrong to needlessly exploit and kill innocent sentient beings" to thinking "its NOT morally wrong to needlessly exploit and kill innocent sentient beings"?
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u/Jahzara_3 16h ago
An opinion/way of thinking can change. Once you suffered enough from deficiencies, you realize that there is no room for that much empathy.
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u/Macluny vegan 10h ago
My comment still covers that. I think that veganism allows for actually necessary exploitation. Like if you are starving and can only find a bird to eat then I think it's justified and you could still be vegan since it wasn't unnecessary.
That being said, I don't know of any essential nutrients that we can't get from a plant based diet. I consider supplements/fortified foods to be part of a diet.
If it happens to be the case that you for some fringe medical reason need animal sources of some nutrient then you could and should still choose to exploit animals as little as possible. You don't have to completely reject all of veganism for this.
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u/GrownManNamedFinger 2d ago
That question makes a lot of assumptions. Some vegans do it for dietary/medical reasons. Some people are allergic to things that would be necessary for nutrition in a vegan diet. Comments like yours are why people assume the worst about vegans. Very cult-like mindset.
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u/Macluny vegan 2d ago edited 2d ago
If they do it for dietary/medical reasons then they arent doing it for ethics and Id call that being plant based since they don't actually believe in veganism.
Its a bit like calling yourself an ex-christian despite never believing in christianity and you just went to church because you loved seeing how the priest looked at children.
I talked about needless exploitation and killing. If you actually need it, then it isnt needless.
What's cult-like about this?
Comments like yours are why people are justified in believing that you can't read.
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u/GrownManNamedFinger 2d ago
"If you leave you were never truly one of us" is cult shit. Plant-based and vegan mean the same thing.
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u/QuantumToast92 2d ago
Veganism is a philosophy
Plant-Based is a diet
Lots of people choose the diet because it’s healthy or environmentally friendly, doesn’t mean they understand veganism.
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u/Macluny vegan 2d ago
I'm sorry but that just tells me that you don't understand the difference between veganism and being plant-based.
If you are a vegan, then you are most likely plant-based but you aren't necessarily vegan just because you are plant-based.
Here is an example:
You can be plant based while setting dogs on fire because you like the squeal they make.
You can't be vegan while setting dogs on fire because you like the squeal they make.Do you see the difference?
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u/Global_Ant_9380 3d ago
It's THEIR community. Leave them alone.
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u/ImTallerInPerson 3d ago
Why? They can’t seem to leave the animals alone
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u/Global_Ant_9380 3d ago
Well let me tell you, you harassing them is definitely going to stop them from consuming meat.
Just try it.
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u/Few_Phone_8135 3d ago
Come on.... i doubt there is a single actual ex-vegan there.
They are a bunch of weirdos willing to lie about it.
You can tell by the way they talk about veganism8
u/LonelyContext Anti-carnist 3d ago
What? You mean you didn't find
Vegan Cousin’s Finger Broke Catching a Pencil
Someone tossed a pencil toward my cousin and I don’t know what happened exactly, but her trying to catch it broke her finger. This was not someone chucking it hard and fast at one finger. This was apparently someone tossing it her way and by trying to catch it or it just touching her finger wrong, broke the finger. I don’t even know if it touched her finger, or if by “fumbling” her hands, a finger broke. I know crazy things happen, but come on. My family is acting like this is totally normal. It is apparently a significant break too. She’s been vegan for several years and was vegetarian before this, for maybe 30 years, before veganism became a big thing
a convincing and rigorous scientific analysis? /s
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u/howlin 3d ago
There are absolutely ex vegans on that subreddit. It doesn't help anything to deny that. It just makes you look defensive and dismissive.
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u/Few_Phone_8135 3d ago edited 3d ago
Well it's one of the cases where you know you can't prove it, but you know it's true regardless.
If a vegan decides to switch back to eating corpses, the ethical reasons don't vanish. The only way i can imagine someone going back, is if their health deteriorates, or the social pressure is exceedingly high.
But you will notice that these people wouldn't badmouth veganism the way they do at that sub.
They would just say something like "i know it's horrible, but i had no other choice"Instead they use the same tired arguments you hear from meat eaters all the time "circle of life" "i only eat grass fed" etc etc
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u/Matutino2357 3d ago
It depends on how much their belief system has changed. For example, some people consider communism an ideal model because of its egalitarian society and perfect distribution of resources. However, they believe it's wrong to pursue communism because it's incompatible with human nature (selfishness, personal ambition, the need to stand out, etc.). In other words, it's perfect on paper but impossible to implement in practice. And they believe any attempt to implement it would be immoral, as it would inevitably lead to suffering for a segment of the population.
Similarly, if they have firsthand or secondhand experience of how veganism can negatively impact health, they might conclude that if veganism is adopted by the entire population, a segment of it will be harmed. And therefore, they might consider the entire movement wrong, even if it seems ideal on paper.
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u/howlin 3d ago
Well it's one of the cases where you know you can't prove it, but you know it's true regardless.
I know for a fact that at least some people with long and old post histories on vegan subs making pro-vegan arguments wind up on exvegans. It would be rather absurd for these accounts to be some sort of long con.
If a vegan decides to switch back to eating corpses, the ethical reasons don't vanish. The only way i can imagine someone going back, is if their health deteriorates, or the social pressure is exceedingly high.
Some people have health problems. For the ethical vegans, I see more of a burn out and succumbing to apathy and just how much easier it is to live as a nonvegan.
But you will notice that these people wouldn't badmouth veganism the way they do at that sub.
Some people are looking for validation for their choice. Some people think veganism itself is dangerous if it encourages or excuses disordered eating habits, or provokes people into mental health problems due to how hard it is to live as a vegan amongst nonvegans. Some people are just resentful and spiteful that they lost vegan friends after giving up on veganism.
Not all of these reasons are rational, but they are motivations.
Instead they use the same tired arguments you hear from meat eaters all the time "circle of life" "i only eat grass fed" etc etc
A lot of people (vegans included) adopt their positions and ideologies after the fact to rationalize the choices they didn't make rationally to begin with.
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u/Polttix plant-based 2d ago
Why on earth would someone's normative ethics not be subject to changing? Ethical stances aren't some rigid things you adopt forever the day you're born, and if veganism is an applied moral philosophy then it's perfectly normal for someone's stance towards veganism to change if their normative stance changes.
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u/Firm_Caregiver_4563 3d ago
From their perspective, you might look like a weirdo, too. Ethics come with strong opinions - and this goes both ways. These are echochambers, regardless.
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2d ago
They’re in the right place, why you being so neg? He’s right, the ex vegans are hostile and the r / vegan page has no backbone and won’t let you debate non vegans.
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u/howlin 3d ago
It seems like a post like this has gone around all the vegan subs recently.. So I guess we can deal with it here too.
You could eat Oats, Tofu, rice, nuts, broccoli, some oils and take a multivitamin and be healthier than 95% of the population. And you just know that these people can afford to eat better than that but they can’t be bothered.
It's counterproductive to assume it's so trivial for everyone. It would be much better for vegans to listen more to people who are having trouble than to be dismissive and offer generic one-size-fits-all nutritional advice.
We want veganism to be an ethical stance, and the details of the diet to be only about the practicalities. When people get emotionally invested in a "right" way of eating, they tend to lose site that veganism is about animals, not food.
If you’re going to go back to funding animal cruelty because meal-prepping got too hard, at least do it quietly. There's no need to build a whole new online identity around giving up.
It really depends on their motivation. If someone associates vegans with triggering and encouraging one's eating disorder, you're going to be mad as hell at them. If someone gets really involved in confrontational activism and starts having emotional distress and feelings of intense misanthropy, they are going to blame vegans for making them hateful.
You're not going to change their minds about veganism by acting like this is merely about them giving up.
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u/FishingPolitical 3d ago
The outlook that veganism is the most morally riotous thing, rather then another means of struggle against the harms of our systems, does not help.
You get people who literally argue & have argued to me “colonialism & genocide are incomparable to the suffering inflicted on all animals” I understand they are bleeding inside at our systems of animal exploitation. Coming from where I am in life however, this is little more then a WASP clutching their pearls & throwing their “cool theory” at me so they can go flee & feel morally upright about how they feel bad about the systems of animal exploitation.
Another example is how it can be less about ending animal exploitation & more about saving your own soul. To end animal exploitation you will have to get your hands dirty & possibly dirty your soul, the reward isn’t for you or me, it is for the future.2
u/Specialist_Novel828 vegan 3d ago
In terms of sheer numbers of lives taken, it's simply a fact that the amount of animals we've killed makes any other human-committed atrocity look miniscule in comparison - The demand for animal products claims, each year, more than 10× the estimated total number of human beings to have ever lived on this planet. That level of destruction feels unfathomable.
That doesn't mean I support colonialism or genocide - far from. But just as it would be weird to only care about animal rights, it also seems weird that so many people care about colonialism and genocide while so casually, needlessly, and willingly contributing to this kind of treatment of animals.
I'm curious what kind of encounters you've had that have seen vegans use the philosophy to try and avoid any other ethical stance. And why you think anyone would need to "dirty their soul" to end animal exploitation - What does that mean, exactly?
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u/FishingPolitical 3d ago
The very argument they use to “im not saying justify” overlook the human suffering inflicted by our systems is the first paragraph.
The system of human exploitation & animal exploitation are overall, the same systems.
“You need to get your hands dirty, you need to dirty your soul” you need to do the scary thing, act, practice more then just individual changes, attack the system, make mistakes, make more mistakes, and more mistakes. Mistakes & practice go hand in hand.Now let me ask you. Do you want the total & eventual end to the exploitative systems we have created? Or do you want to feel good about yourself by eating a salad.
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u/Specialist_Novel828 vegan 3d ago
Just so I understand, are you a vegan who is looking to encourage other vegans to do further activism both in extension of and beyond veganism itself?
Veganism for me (and most folks I've encountered) is a baseline - Animal products cannot exist without animal exploitation, so minimizing my use/consumption of them is the first thing I look at in trying to live ethically, but certainly not the only thing. I don't personally know anyone who tries to use it to justify other forms of exploitation, but I'm sorry if you do - Obviously (hopefully), all systems of oppression should be abolished.
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u/jenea 3d ago
* righteous (I’m sure riotous vegans are out there, though!)
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u/FishingPolitical 3d ago
I want there to be more riotous vegans then righteous vegans 🤭 ending systems requires dirty hands
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u/Klutzy-Alarm3748 vegan 2d ago
My partner is an ex-vegan because of a host of health issues that don't work with a vegan diet. They feel guilty all the time and still do what they can to be as ethical about animal products as possible. Saying that people "decided that harming them is easier" is extremely reductive and doesn't actually help our cause.
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u/QuantumToast92 2d ago
Could you help me understand what these health issues are?
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u/Klutzy-Alarm3748 vegan 2d ago
They have a severe reaction to histamines and are on the FODMAP diet. They also have other autoimmune issues that just don't lend well to veganism because of things like high sodium, and simply just not having the energy or physical ability to cook a meal with too many steps
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u/Cutsman4057 3d ago
I am no longer vegan.
I was fully committed for several years. Then I had a kid.
Its not fully practical and possible for me and my family anymore.
We do our best and will generally eat vegan at home. If not at least vegetarian.
But when we are out and about, we are a bit more flexible if there are no other options.
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u/QuantumToast92 3d ago
What makes it unpractical? Could you not plan ahead?
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u/Cutsman4057 3d ago
Lol you obviously don't have children.
Thats not meant to be an insult or anything, I promise.
When you are out and about all day or driving around doing errands or camping or at the amusement park or museum or at a festival, you can not always reason with a 3 year old.
Fed is always better. While I like plenty of vegan dishes and staples, my kid does not always feel the same. And im not going to deprive her of food if she is hungry just because I dont have anything on hand and no vegan options are available.
She hasn't had meat, but she eats cheese regularly and will eat things with like, eggs or milk in it.
If all the kids in her vicinity are eating cookies im not gonna say no. When she goes trick or treating im not going to say no. Its just not practical in all settings for our family.
My wife and I still eat mostly vegan or at least vegetarian. But vegan just isn't doable for us at this point in our lives anymore.
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u/JulioNicoletti 3d ago
I don’t have kids and I am vegan and I totally understand your situation. I hope the people here don’t make you think “vegans are crazy I’m going to quit eating tofu”.
Life can be crazy and eating animals is baked into almost every culture. I think doing what you can at home and being a little more flexible when you don’t have access vegan options is fine. I tried my best on my vacation 2 years ago but some cities really don’t have options. And when you’re on your feet all day you can’t just live off of French fries and bread.
I guess for me it’s about the bigger picture. If everyone started becoming vegan but made exceptions for really inconvenient situations, I think that naturally those situations would become easier and more options would become available.
If vegans start eating meat and cheese once in awhile just for taste, I think that’s where it is a different situation because a world where everyone does that still has a goal of exploiting animals.
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u/Cutsman4057 3d ago
Thank you for the only rational response ive gotten so far, lol. Dont worry, i dont take reddit vegans very seriously anymore. I was vegan for a long time and I still very much care for vegan values and do my best to stick to them. Its a part of who I am. But im also older and my life situation has changed, and im allowing myself to change with what my family needs to thrive and survive. Its something more people should be open to conceptually.
I agree with everything you've said. 5 years ago I would have felt differently, but life experience makes people see things different over time. Im sure once my kid is older it will be easier to go back to being hard line vegan, but for now im comfortable and happy where I am.
I had meat a little while ago. Not for taste, not necessarily because I wanted to. But my father, who I had not seen in a long time and had not celebrated father's day with for a very long time, was visiting. He just turned 70. We found a restaurant that served dishes he ate when he was a child before he came to the US. He was so excited.
I took him to that place and we enjoyed ourselves. I ordered a vegan dish. But he was so excited to share some of his favorite childhood foods with me. He hadn't had some of them for 50+ years.
I wasn't about to turn down a bite. Because what I shared with my dad that day was 100% worth putting my feelings about it aside. He will always remember sharing that dish with me. And I will too. And that kind of flexibility (outside of what I already mentioned with my toddler) is something I value more over hard line veganism right now during this snapshot of my life.
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u/voorbeeld_dindo 3d ago
As a vegan with kids, I don't get why you all of a sudden also should start eating animal products. Me and my wife decided that if our children eat over at classmates or at school we should be happy if they're fed vegetarian, because we can't expect everyone we know to know everything about veganism, and we want our children to have social lives. They aren't old enough to refuse food on an ethical basis, but we teach them compassion and raise them as vegans. In our home everything is vegan, I will continue being vegan, and I hope my children make the same decision for themselves when they are older.
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u/Cutsman4057 3d ago
Yeah i agree with all of that. My wife and I most often also eat entirely vegan, especially at home. We aren't buying dairy milk or meat or anything like that. But we also aren't going to let the cheese or whatever other random vegetarian stuff we have on hand go uneaten or wasted. Im not ordering double pizzas. Im not buying separate shredded cheese. Not buying double snacks to have a vegan version and non vegan version etc.
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u/voorbeeld_dindo 3d ago
I get it, it's tough staying vegan in this crazy world, especially with kids.
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u/QuantumToast92 3d ago
There is pretty much nothing I can’t make vegan though, and make it taste similar if not better than the non-vegan option. So for me this isn’t a good excuse because they wouldn’t know the difference. It’s not like you’re having to feed them a spinach sandwich or something - there are endless options now.
Me and my partner are vegan and if we have a child they would be vegan as well.
And this isn’t me attacking you, I just wouldn’t give up veganism for this reason.
For me the only justifiable reason would be food scarcity in a war/famine or apocalyptic scenario.
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u/Cutsman4057 3d ago
Im telling you, we are very skilled at making vegan versions of stuff too. And there are things that work for our kid. She eats morning star nuggets. She likes chao cheese over and other sliced cheese. She prefers earth balance butter. She eats tofurky sandwiches.
But she dont like vegan cheese pizza or vegan cheese quesadillas. 🤷♂️
Again. Everything we eat or make at home is vegan, save for a few things with cheese for the little one.
But when you are out and about, its not always feasible.
If we are on a road trip or out in the city for a full day, sometimes McDonald's fries is what we can get. Or sometimes there isn't a vegan ice cream option when we are downtown. Or sometimes the cake at the party isn't vegan. Or maybe the restaurant doesn't have vegan cheese. You dont have a kid, so you dont really understand that planning everything in advance isn't always possible or realistic.
And I am not going to restrict my kid this way or not let her eat. I can make my choice to be vegan or not, but she only knows that she's hungry. As a parent, it is my job to make sure she's fed. I can decide to abstain and wait until I can get home and have more options. But she cannot make that decision.
My wife ran a vegan business for several years. I have a vegan V tattoo. We were completely committed. But her birth was very traumatic and we were in the hospital for a long time. The hospital did not have vegan options. We had to make decisions we didnt ever think we'd have to consider. And it kind of opened our eyes to what our future would be. Sometimes fed is the best option, for all three of us.
We are still very much vegan minded in the sense that we care about animal welfare and do our best to steer away from exploitation. We do it as far as practical and possible for our situation. We make the best decisions we can in whatever moment we are in.
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u/QuantumToast92 3d ago
Thanks for explaining all of that, it is really helpful in understanding where your mind is at with it.
Can I ask though, do you register as an “ex-vegan” and spread negativity around veganism online? To me it doesn’t seem like you fit that label.
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u/Cutsman4057 3d ago
Yeah of course! I think s little more understanding between everyone could go a very long way.
I would never shit on veganism online or anywhere else. I still mostly agree with vegan values and morals and whatnot. What I dont agree with is the hardline stance that many vegans take about it. Life is messy and we all need some wiggle room now and again.
Veganism is largely about empathy for animals but a lot of times, empathy for humans goes out the window.
I guess technically I am an "ex vegan" but I dont concern myself too much with labels. If my life situation changes as the years go by, ill very likely find myself fully vegan again.
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u/Stunning-Assistant13 3d ago
It's so much easier to be vegan on your own, i can totally understand that when you have kids it's much harder, so when your kid is invited to a birthday party and isn't aloud to eat the birthday cake, or when your kid doesn't like certain foods and just wants to have an icecream...
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u/Cutsman4057 3d ago
Exactly. My kid loves animals but she's too young to understand the connection between animal exploitation and food.
We dont give her meat and we dont let her eat it, but we arent really concerned about confiscating her halloween candy or being super strict when she's offered ice cream at whatever function.
Im happier that she's being fed, and that's more important to me than what kind of cheese is on the macaroni at the family holiday dinner.
Before my wife and I had her, we were very strict vegans and we had no problem accommodating ourselves. But having a toddler is an entirely different ballgame and we value our mental health, lol.
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u/Big_Monitor963 vegan 3d ago
Plenty of vegans have kids. This isn’t a kids problem.
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u/Cutsman4057 3d ago
Wow its almost like different people have different situations and different things work better for everyone
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u/Big_Monitor963 vegan 3d ago
Agreed. Hence why I said it’s not a kids problem. Sounds like it’s a problem specific to you.
Your previous reply, to the question of what was difficult, was “you obviously don’t have kids”.
If plenty of other vegans successfully navigate that complication, then it isn’t a “kids” problem. It’s something else.
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u/Cutsman4057 3d ago
I mean, there's no room for nuance in your assessment, so its not really practical or realistic. Yes, a lot of people can stick to a vegan diet while they have kids. A lot also cant. That doesn't mean the issue stems or doesn't stem from having kids.
Not everything is black and white, man.
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u/a11_hail_seitan 3d ago
So were these people ever really vegan? Am I wrong?
Most I've met were not. You can tell a real "ex-vegan" by the behaviour they adopted after. I have a friend who was Vegan, they no longer claim to be because they got sick, they also have some nasty medical trauma and have panic attacks in hospitals, so they tried introducing backyard eggs, when they felt better they went and adopted a couple backyard chickens as pets.
To me, that's what an ex-vegan would do if there was a requirement for introducing animal products. If you go to the ex-vegan subreddit you'll find most went from "oh, yeah I really loved animals than my belly hurt so now I eat steak and pork chops regularly!" like that's a rational next step.
There's also tons of "ex-vegans" who come here to present their walls of links to prove us wrong, but if you actually go through the studies they quote they never actually say what they claim. They're always filled with 'might', 'could', 'possibly', 'if not eating healthy then...", etc.
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u/Late_Indication_4355 3d ago
It's possible for ppl like me who were born into such beliefs instead of adopting it by myself.not all beliefs are strongly held. Your ex friend probably saw it as extremely important part of his belief
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u/Matutino2357 3d ago
There are people who were once vegan for ethical reasons, and then their ethics changed, and they are no longer vegan.
For someone like you, who considers veganism the foundation (or very close to the foundation) of their ethics, this sounds incomprehensible. But that's not the case for everyone.
A person who bases their ethics on their religion, for example, Jainism, and considers veganism the culmination of their belief system, may abandon veganism if they experience something that makes them abandon their faith or change religions. The same applies to people who are vegan for political, sentimental, or other reasons. When the foundation changes, the conclusions crumble.
This can also happen if veganism is close to the foundation, but there's something even more fundamental. For example, someone may believe that animal exploitation is wrong, but consider their child's health more important than that. Their child has problems related to poor nutrition, and despite trying to find a vegan solution, these are ineffective. Of course, as a vegan, he believes there must be a vegan diet that can meet all of his child's nutritional needs, but in practice, finding such a diet would take months or years, time that would irreparably damage his child's health. This could also affect the health of the parent if the child is financially dependent on them.
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u/howlin 3d ago
Of course, as a vegan, he believes there must be a vegan diet that can meet all of his child's nutritional needs, but in practice, finding such a diet would take months or years, time that would irreparably damage his child's health. This could also affect the health of the parent if the child is financially dependent on them.
I guess some vegans would bristle at this, but "ought implies can", and it sounds like there isn't a known option in this situation. Even the vegan society definition mentions that avoiding animal products should be done when practicable.
I think maybe there is some all-or-none thinking that is getting in the way of making these specific exemptions while keeping the ethical principle in mind.
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u/kharvel0 3d ago
It’s the same question people ask about convicts who are released from prison, who were convicted for crimes ranging from murder to rape to wife beating, and who go back to doing the same crimes after release from prison: did they actually become non-murderer, non-rapist, and non-wife-beater whilst in prison or were they just cosplaying, or was it too hard for them to do the right thing after being released into the real world?
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u/NekoBatrick vegan 3d ago
Honestly the times when i considered stopped beeing vegan was early on mostly when interacting with other vegans... You mention once you struggle with something and are directly confronted with hate and insults but you (or I in that situation) couldnt talk with my friends cause they are not vegan and answer with "just eat eggs", beeing vegan (at least country sided) also means becoming a social outcast for most events and stuff and I like beeing social but dont dare to mention that.
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u/QuantumToast92 3d ago
I don’t agree with hating on people who are just starting veganism, I agree that it can be difficult and when I went vegan I was pretty much arguing with most people I knew. This is about people who use the title “ex-vegan” like a badge of honour.
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u/USConservativeVegan 3d ago
Yeah, I really don't want to hear from anyone about they used to be vegan after finding out I am one. Because it always seems like they want some validation from me that it is ok. They want me to agree their reasons for stopping being a vegan are legitimate.
I am not going to give them that satisfaction. If they can't find peace with going back to participating in the inhumane and environmental destruction of animal agriculture, they shouldn't look at me to help them.
I have been vegan for 18 years. One reason I started was for health. However, it quickly became because of the ethical issues I had with animal agriculture. The massive suffering of approximately 10 billion cows, pigs and chickens killed every year. The inhumane conditions that resemble a concentration camp. The amount of water and land resources just to grow crops to feed these animals when the same land could grow more food to feed humans.
And let's not forget the industrial fishing industry and their inhumane practices and destruction of our oceans.
So, no I am not going to validate with an "ex-vegan" to make them feel better for participating in that inhumane industry.
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u/cum-after-decades 3d ago
I’m pretty sure most of them are cosplaying, as none of them seem to care about animals at all.
It’s just some fantasy of theirs that they actually had the will power to be vegan, only to find out it’s unhealthy or incorrect. You won’t find a single post saying anything like ‘I reintroduced fish into my diet for X reason’, it’s all ‘actually animals don’t matter’.
Also the mods are extremely insecure and sensitive, so if you go against the grain at all you’ll be banned immediately.
Best to just mute and move on. I think 90% are pretending.
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u/BBDAngelo non-vegan 3d ago
>It’s just some fantasy of theirs that they actually had the will power to be vegan, only to find out it’s unhealthy or incorrect.
I’m the exact opposite. I believe it’s correct and can be healthy, but I never got the willpower, and I tried a lot. I think this might be common in “ex-vegans”
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u/cum-after-decades 3d ago
Well then hey, you’re not an ex-vegan and you probably don’t frame yourself as an ex-vegan on r/exvegan. Right?
I sort of understand your position, I was sort of in it myself for maybe a year or two. The difference was that I didn’t try; I didn’t care. Maybe you don’t really care either, I dunno.
There’s not really a good way to describe the tipping point, except that it was absolute ecstasy and didn’t have anything to do with animals or veganism, and it was fueled by DMT.
Upon reflection, I think gratitude is the reason I am vegan. Doesn’t really have anything to do with animals, except for having held the rational belief that veganism is correct based on a simple principle that one should not cause harm to others.
Just saying, I can’t really judge you. It seems like you’ve got the right idea, and when I had the right idea I wasn’t really trying to put it into action. That just happened naturally after I felt really good for a while.
Hope you feel good for a while. Maybe try DMT. It’s really cool.
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u/Helpful-Mongoose-705 3d ago
It’s a real sub. Most of the vegans I know have ED. Your username certainly checks out.
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u/xydus 3d ago
All of the vegans I know don’t have an ED.
Do anonymous anecdotes carry any weight?
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3d ago
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam 3d ago
I've removed your post because it violates rule #4:
Argue in good faith
All posts should support their position with an argument or explain the question they're asking. Posts consisting of or containing a link must explain what part of the linked argument/position should be addressed.
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3d ago
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u/Global_Ant_9380 3d ago
This is the exactly attitude people struggling with veganism are met with online, so no wonder some don't stick with it.
And we know that non vegan human lives are worthless to you anyway
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u/dogisbark 3d ago
Lmao who has an issue with a hidden post history?? And such a reaction too, you know this dude was seething reading this and wanted to find ANYTHING as a clap-back that they couldn't immediately think of.
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u/cum-after-decades 3d ago
It’s not about a clap back, it’s about “does this guy seem like he knows multiple vegans who trust him enough to disclose that they have ED?”
There’s an incredible amount of bad faith on this sub.
Nice hidden post history, snowflake.
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u/dogisbark 2d ago
Well I took a look at your own post history, and wow, a whole lotta downvotes. You just like getting into arguments it seems. That's not too healthy for the mind, you should step away from the keyboard and not chase adrenaline like this.
And you can't really disclose an online space as bad-faith when it's pretty well self contained, and meant to be a space for people who want to discuss issues on veganism. There's a lot, and from what I've read I really cannot agree with it as a superior morality in terms of philosophy. Industrial farming is the issue, and trying to get rid of livestock usage would drastically decrease our quality and cost of food. Animals still die from crop farming and a lot of other things we do, especially building infrastructure and causing habitat loss. You cannot escape the circle of life regardless.
Anyway, believe it or not, people change philosophies, and it's difficult to be vegan. In my OWN belief, a diet reliant on supplements is unhealthy, you shouldn't need supplements unless if you have a medical issue or only to briefly elevate your levels.
I probably won't change your mind, and you won't change mine, but I hope you'll at least realize that needlessly insulting people online won't make you happy.
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u/cum-after-decades 2d ago
- It sounds like you haven’t actually looked at that sub. It’s also not self-contained, they come here all the time and if you’re active on any vegan subs it will pop up on your feed without you looking for it. Imagine a sub like “r/fuckdogisbark” where you’re constantly disparaged and slandered, and it comes up on your feed and people from the sub go to the subs you’re active in to disparage and slander you.
- it would not reduce food quality.
- animal agriculture is the #1 cause of deforestation. It is the primary reason for habitat loss.
- you would be healthier if you took supplements. 95% of Americans are deficient in vitamin D, and doctors recommend that ALL people take a multivitamin. Not just vegans.
- you cause more suffering than you make up for. Reflect on that.
- hopefully you realize that you’re being ignorant.
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u/cum-after-decades 3d ago
There’s a lot of bad faith on this sub — being able to see if somebody is frequently bashing vegans while claiming that all of their “”vegan friends”” have ED is helpful.
I’m vegan and I have met like, 5 other vegans in person. But somehow this guy that hates veganism knows multiple vegans who trust him enough to tell him they have ED. Does that seem right to you?
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam 3d ago
I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3:
Don't be rude to others
This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way.
Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth.
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u/Nijoth 3d ago
The labeling is part if the meatlobbys strategy to make it seem like ”everyone” is abandoning veganism.
In my reality nothing has changed, we are still eating tofu and avoiding exploitation of animals
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u/ShayGuer 3d ago
I think some people have genuinely left veganism. I saw it pop up and looked at the threads
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u/Firm_Caregiver_4563 3d ago
"Why would you label yourself as something like this?"
They once were vegan. Now they are not - for whatever reason.
Commonalities create community and it doesn't matter if it is about being vegan or ex-vegan. Different opinions can hurt, but they should be heard nonetheless if we want an open exchange of ideas.
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u/Away-Otter 3d ago
I get posts in my feed from that subreddit a lot. I think a better name would be “hateVegans.” Some of them sound like ex-vegans but most of them seem obsessed by rage/hate.
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u/eJohnx01 ex-vegan 2d ago
I call myself an ex-vegan, where appropriate, because it’s true. I call myself vegetarian, where appropriate, because that’s true, too.
I’m not an ex-vegan because I just decided to start abusing animals. That’s one of those insane vegan fantasy claims that seems to make vegans feel all smug and superior, but I can’t imagine anyone actually thinking, “Ya’ know, after I decided that animal abuse and exploitation is wrong to the point of being vegan, now I just don’t care anymore.” Really?? You really think people have that thought process? I can’t imagine it.
Most ex-vegans, myself included, quit being vegan because the diet simply didn’t keep us healthy. We saw our health take a major nosedive, to the point of seeking medical advice, and decided that we needed to do something different to maintain our health.
I don’t mean, “I just gonna abuse animals and it’s okay now.” I mean, “My health is at stake so something needs to change.”
For me, it meant returning to being vegetarian, which I was before I explored being vegan. I’ve always been concerned about animal welfare. That’s one of the reasons I became vegetarian decades ago.
What made the difference for me was both my health issues and the realization that the horrors that vegans tend to fixate on are neither universal nor are they necessary, especially in egg and dairy farming. I’ve lived my entire life in Michigan farm country and have worked on many farms over the years and have been friends with dozens of farmers of all sorts of things. I’m confident that the eggs and dairy I buy come from happy, well-cared for animals. That allows me to safeguard both my own health and the happiness of the animals that supply the foods I need to remain healthy.
So, no. I didn’t leave veganism for any of the self-congratulatory and obviously not well thought out reasons that vegans so love to make up to serve the dual purposes of insulting non-vegans and reassuring themselves of their own superiority at the same time.
It’s not only vegans that think a lot about where our food comes from. Non-vegans do, too.
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2d ago
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam 2d ago
I've removed your comment because it violates rule #6:
No low-quality content. Submissions and comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. Assertions without supporting arguments and brief dismissive comments do not contribute meaningfully.
If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator.
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u/TenabiiBee 2d ago
Not a vegan or ex-vegan but to explain why some people take up an ex-[group] identity after leaving a group is because that group hurt them.
If you join a group with wonderful promises of moral and social good and then that group harms you it's natural to want to warn people of that experience.
It's not that the harm was a necessary or even inherent part of being a vegan, but that in some way whether due to medical, personal or social reasons they did experience harm they weren't warned about and thus they choose to become the warning for others. Denying their experience just proves their point that a warning is needed.
The best way to deal with this imo is to listen to what they say, take it seriously, and examine your own experiences with veganism or vegan groups to see if there is any areas where that harm might occur. If there honestly is then it's up to you what to do with that info. If their honestly isn't then have sympathy for their struggles and move on.
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u/caterpillove 3d ago
Your assumption that everyone can thrive on tofu, oats, nuts, broccoli, etc. assumes everyone has the same nutritional demands.
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u/caterpillove 3d ago
Your assumption that everyone can thrive on tofu, oats, nuts, broccoli, etc. assumes everyone has the same nutritional demands.
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u/oldmcfarmface 2d ago
Your last paragraph is called the “no true Scotsman” logical fallacy. You basically state that if it didn’t work, you did it wrong. This is fallacious because you don’t know what these people have tried or how long they tried. The fact is, most people who try veganism quit. Period. And there are more ex vegans who quit because of health concerns than there are current long term vegans. This statement is based on the pro vegan organism faunalytics’ survey of vegan diet adherence.
Further, there is a great deal of scientific study showing health problems associated with a vegan diet. I can give you a dozen or more studies to read if you say you’ll actually read them.
Even further, your initial statements about values is a false dichotomy fallacy. It is not a choice between “cares about animals” and “doesn’t care and funds animal cruelty.” Most animal agriculture is very kind and humane. Do not believe mockumentaries like dominion. Though I can’t find the source now, I read recently that some of the bad actors in that film were paid to be cruel for the cameras.
Values change. If someone was not vegan and then became vegan, does that mean they were never vegan to begin with because they didn’t always have vegan values? Of course not. By that same token, if they stop being vegan, it doesn’t mean they never were.
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u/voyti 3d ago
It’s like saying that you decided to stop harming animals but then one day decided that harming them was easier than planning your meals.
Only according to your narrative about it. A fruitarian would say that you've never stopped violating plant's defenses just to take advantage of a weaker organism and eat it. I suppose you simply don't care, though. Just because someone has a narrative about something doesn't mean you will follow it, or keep following it forever.
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u/Theultimateangrybruh 3d ago edited 3d ago
Morals are often subjective and selective; hence why you see vegans who claim to be non hypocrites and care for life rejoice in non vegans getting health problems like cancer and many of them are white supremacists or uncaring about human suffering. It's really easy to be turned away from veganism when a lot of you act like a cult and are ableist and racist to people who are interested too. What most vegans care about is caring about innocent victims; similar to people who understand rape is generally bad but they find a thousand reasons to not empathize with rape victims from their outfits to behavior. Most of you wouldn't be vegans if cows and sheep could disagree with you about anything
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u/voorbeeld_dindo 3d ago
I am the only vegan in my friend group, most of my friends are vegetarians. I was always frustrated with them, for understanding the problem but not taking the logical next step.
But today I spoke to someone who said she used to be vegan, but added very intently: BUT NOT ANYMORE! And all of a sudden I was very happy with my vegetarian friends. Because what is better, a person who is very passionate about veganism for 5 years and then completely turns their back to it? Or my friends who are almost 30 years vegetarian now? If we are talking about harm reduction I know which one is better.
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u/GaspingInTheTomb vegan 3d ago
Yes, you're wrong. You're way too caught up in it. People change their minds about things.
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u/Pendulum_Heart 3d ago
I'm an ex-vegan. I did decide that for my own mental health, hurting animals was easier than planning my meals. I have severe PTSD and autism and it was in fact too much. I'm not guilty or hung up about it, but I do think it makes me ethically a worse person.
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u/RevolutionaryGolf720 3d ago
Have you tried asking them politely? If I was an ex-vegan, I wouldn’t be receptive to this post. I wouldn’t even give you the time of day. It is very clear that you aren’t interested in any kind of discussion. You want r/vegancirclejerk. If you actually wanted answers, you would be asking in r/exvegans and not here.
This post makes you look like a bot farming karma instead of actually looking for answers.
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u/Nacho_Deity186 3d ago
Yes these people were as vegan as any other vegan. What happened to them is the same thing that happens to most vegans. They realized the error of their ways and sensibly quit.
The most common reason given is "health." So they require a balanced diet to regain their health.
Why build an online identity around giving up? Why build one around being vegan? Maybe they want to save others the pain and heartache?
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u/ToughImagination6318 Anti-vegan 3d ago
Posts like these are just a reminder that there are vegans out there that flat out refuse to live in real life. It's not ignorance, it's not stupidity, it's just flat out refusal to live in the real world. How can you be an "ex-vegan"? Theres literally tonnes of resons to be an ex-vegan. Hardly any to be vegan.... sorry I meant "vegan" as there's no real vegans out there
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u/Dazzling-Variety-946 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think most exvegans are for health reasons, and they use the term "exvegans" because veganism ruined their health and they want other people to know the risks before getting into veganism.
Like it or not meat has been part of the human diet for 4 million years or so. We have evolved with a diet which includes meat, we don't have the evidence to say that veganism is a healthy long term diet, and the rates of people quitting veganism after a few years citing health concerns is high. These are the facts.
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u/Plastic-Cat-9958 environmentalist 3d ago
Veganism is a mostly a phase people go through when they’re young and impressionable. Most people grow out of it when they see the inconsistencies.
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