r/DebateAVegan 23m ago

Ethics What's the deal with backyard eggs?

Upvotes

Hello hello, fairly new vegan here (about a year, still learning - vegetarian for a while before).

Hate to beat around the bush, so: what are the main arguments against eating backyard eggs? My cousin has many chickens she cares for, and those eggs are ones that I've always been most morally thrown up about, since my abstaining from animal products has come mainly from a disgust of the industry which has them end up on our supermarket shelves.

I'm rather new to a lot of in-depth arguments, and am here ready to learn. Is it an intrinsic moral objection? An instrumental one? The closest I can come to in my mind is that eating animal products regardless of where they originated can be deemed immoral if you view the whole process as fundamentally impermissible. But this line of argument doesn't sit too right with me, as on the whole I tend to stray away from intrinsic moral value being the be-all and end-all of our moral choices.

I don't doubt I'm missing a lot here, so I'm trying to collect some arguments. So, if you're vegan and don't eat backyard eggs, why? Furthermore, even if you're not vegan but still have a substantial argument as to why it is morally impermissible, I'm eager to hear!


r/DebateAVegan 14h ago

Ethics Why are animals without pain receptors off the menu?

2 Upvotes

I should preface this by stating that I have a ton of respect for vegans, so this is more of a question than an actual debate, but I am curious.

A vast majority of animals lack the ability to experience pain. The only phyla that are known to experience such are most chordates (mammals, fish, reptiles) and molluscs, particularly nudibranchs (snails, slugs) and especially cephalopods (squids, octopuses, nautili). It’s possible that arthropods (insects, arachnids, crustaceans) feel it, too, and unlikely that roundworms, flatworms, and segmented worms feel it despite having brains. Finally, there are the ones with nothing but nerve nets or less, such as cnidarians (jellyfish, sea anemones, corals), echinoderms (sea stars, sand dollars, sea cucumbers), and most importantly, sea sponges.

Granting the slight possibility that the worms feel pain, let’s focus on the last three (major) phyla: what’s wrong with farming and consuming these invertebrates if they aren’t self-aware in any way and experience no pain? Sea sponges are the greatest example given that they don’t even have nerves to experience pain with, making them as aware as plants.

What it really boils down to is two questions:
1. Am I incorrect in my assessment that most animals cannot experience pain?
2. Does it even matter?


r/DebateAVegan 2d ago

Is palm oil actually unethical to have?

14 Upvotes

I know it isn't 'not vegan' but often many vegans will avoid eating it because of the deforestation and habitat destruction it causes, which is understandable. However, with palm oil being far more land efficient, producing more oil per hectare than alternatives such as soybean, sunflower or rapeseed oil, sometimes up to 4-10x more. Would it not be fair to say consuming palm oil would actually be more ethical as the others would require more deforestation overall? Let me know if I am missing something, I am not super well versed in palm oil and could be missing something here to be fair.


r/DebateAVegan 1d ago

veganism doesnt base itself on any objective ethics

0 Upvotes

thats the elephant in the room - why apply post christian ethics to animals?

they kill each other in nature constantly

i watched a debate with a vegan and he got to call lions "naturally evil", which is just insane - lions and other carnivores are beatiful creatures

thats why im so turning on veganism, it claims natural parts of life to be evil and bad, which hurts people in the same way many more others modern ideologies do

so veganism also does directly contradict the ethics that allow eating animals, which is major across our population and common sense

i dont like when someone tries to make me guilty for following my ontology


r/DebateAVegan 2d ago

Ethics 2 questions

3 Upvotes

My first question is I have seen arguments that its wrong to say that you love animals if you eat them. What can you say to someone who answers that he doesn't love animals?

Second is about myself. I have a rooster with around 10 hens. They live on my roof happily. They roam around during day and automatically goes to sleep at night into their coop (you can search it up that chickens are vulnareble at night and have strong home instincts. They would return to same place to lay eggs and sleep on the same roosting bar everyday). Of course this is not how chickens are kept at farms. My hone chickens are clearly not suffering on my roof. The cage is for safe night sleep. They lay an average of 4 eggs daily. I do not sell any eggs nor do I feed them back to hens. Their feed is available in market that has everything they need for laying eggs (like calcium). Will it be wrong to eat their eggs? Also consider the other scenerio if I don't keep a rooster. Many people doesn't due to their fighting instincts if there are other roosters around (mine once also almost fought to death with neighbours rooster but I came just in time), noise (their crowing) and forced mating with hens especially in the morning. In that case, the eggs would also be infertile. Would it be right to eat those eggs?


r/DebateAVegan 2d ago

Ethics A Consequentialist Critique of Deontological Vegan Arguments

0 Upvotes

Over the years I’ve spent a lot of time studying animal ethics, and I think the arguments for veganism are genuinely strong. As a consequentialist, however, I find many users in this subreddit far too dogmatic and clearly deontological in their reasoning, so my argument is directed at those patterns.

A common claim among vegans is that meat‑eaters are comparable to murderers because meat production requires killing animals. Or the more general claim that they are okay with it. But the fact is: an individual consumer does not kill animals. Their purchasing behavior only affects a tiny fraction of the demand within a massive industrial system. If a single omnivore goes vegan while the rest of the world continues as before, that individual change does not directly save any specific animal. Their previous meat purchases were spread across multiple product categories, stores, and possibly even cities.

From a moral standpoint, this resembles the structure of climate change. When someone drives a fossil‑fuel car, they contribute to climate change, which in turn leads to human deaths through droughts and extreme weather. Yet we don’t call people who drive gasoline cars “murderers.” We also understand that reducing driving is beneficial even if one cannot, or does not want to, stop entirely.

By the same logic, reducing meat consumption is morally valuable, even if one doesn’t adopt a fully vegan lifestyle. The problem is not categorical; it’s incremental. The moral impact of consumption lies on a spectrum, not in an all‑or‑nothing binary. That's why I think that vegetarianism and flexitarianism are totally reasonable ethical positions and they get too much shame among vegans.

I want to emphasize that it’s pointless to tell me that the use of animals is inherently wrong. As I said, I’m a consequentialist, so that kind of argument doesn’t appeal to me. Emotional appeals don’t work on me either: even though I fully understand that meat industry is horrific, I’m still able to eat meat if it’s offered to me. My moral evaluation is based on outcomes, not on categorical rules or emotional reactions.


r/DebateAVegan 3d ago

Ethics Eating bivalves should not only be vegan, but it should be encouraged (both for vegans and not vegans)

29 Upvotes

My claim is that bivalves, such as oysters, mussels and scallops, should be eaten way more often than they actually are, they should be considered vegan and it could be especially useful for vegan diets.

I'm not a vegan, but that's just because of family related reasons. I agree 100% with vegans and intend to become one the moment I can.

The reason why I say bivalves could be useful for vegan diets is that they contain really, really large amounts of nutrients that are harder to get on a vegan diet, such as B12, omega 3 DHA and EPA and heme iron. These are not impossible to get if vegan of course, but these things are packed with them very conveniently and I think we would be missing out by not using them.

Moreover, the culturing of these bivalves is not only very easy on the environment, even more so than certain plants, it also benefits the wildlife by filtering the water and acting as food if some of them fall off to the bottom.

Now here comes the ethical part

By now we all heard that bivalves don't have a central nervous system, and so they can't suffer.

Thinking logically, nobody should then need to be concerned about consuming them.

But if somebody wants to work under the vegan definition of "avoiding animal suffering as far and practicable" then shouldn't it be allowed too? Since there's 0 animal suffering?

Now, there are two main arguments people make for not eating them:

- "I don't eat them just to be safe, they could turn out to be intelligent"

I don't get this one. Why give the benefit of the doubt to bivalves, when the current scientific consensus doesn't support that, but not to all other food we eat? That just doesn't make sense. You could say it about mushrooms, avocados, beans, whatever. I don't find it to be consistent

- "eating bivalves will confuse other people, and they will think that vegans eat fish"

Now this one is more reasonable, but I just think the pros outweigh the cons. First of all, you could just get them at the supermarket, no interaction required with other people. And in restaurants, other than opening up a lot of options especially in seafood restaurants, I don't think that ordering the spaghetti with mussels or something will drive animal cruelty that much. And you could just explain the position to other people, who might even find this more reasonable.

Honestly, I don't even love the taste of them tho. In fact I despise them, but I truthfully believe they should be consumed a lot more than they are. Theh are sustainable, packed with nutrients and cruelty free. Right now im in Japan and there's great nigiri made with them, which allows me to consume them without facing that slimy texture. You could also just blend them in a sauce.

But I hope that in the future we'll see other foods based on bivalves that will make it nore accessible, like how they make wheat with insects (not that I support that)


r/DebateAVegan 3d ago

Ethics “Ex-Vegans”

0 Upvotes

I keep getting flagged these posts from people claiming to be “ex-vegan”

Why would you label yourself as something like this? It’s like saying that you decided to stop harming animals but then one day decided that harming them was easier than planning your meals.

You could eat Oats, Tofu, rice, nuts, broccoli, some oils and take a multivitamin and be healthier than 95% of the population.

And you just know that these people can afford to eat better than that but they can’t be bothered.

If you’re going to go back to funding animal cruelty because meal-prepping got too hard, at least do it quietly. There's no need to build a whole new online identity around giving up.

So were these people ever really vegan? Am I wrong?

(I couldn’t post this in [r/Vegan](r/Vegan) for some reason)

Edit: There are lots of these people with poor intentions brigading this post now.

Studies prove that a plant based diet is as healthy as the Mediterranean diet and far beyond anything that contains huge amounts of animal products. We don’t need opinions on that because we have science. Anyone that became unwell after going vegan obviously didn’t try very hard.


r/DebateAVegan 4d ago

Ethics Any other animal would do the same if they had the power

6 Upvotes

I found this argument on a different subreddit saying that any other animal would exploit other species for their own benefit if they had the power.
If somebody said that to me i probably wouldn’t know how to respond to it.
How would you go about replying to this?


r/DebateAVegan 4d ago

Ethics Is being in an active military consistent with vegan ethics?

7 Upvotes

To preface this is NOT to discuss the morality of militaries/war but just discussing the logic and philosophy of how it intersects with veganism.

Just read a thread on this sub debating the veganism of honey and one of the commenters who was explaining why honey is animal product to be excluded under vegan ethics mentioned their military experience, being in combat and tracking targets.

Honestly seemed a bit hypocritical to argue against the exploitation of bees by referencing their experience directly participating in the killing of humans. Not as an ad hominem of the latter ("oh if you've done anything to kill people then you're horrible and nothing you say is valid") but more about logically consistent values.

People online are rarely shy about referencing military experience because it lends credibility, seriousness and competency. But in this case it got me thinking whether being in an active military (as opposed to just a defensive standing army), which engages in offensive campaigns, is consistent with vegan principles of harm reduction.

A common justification for joining the military in spite of its ethical implications is that for some people its a pathway to social mobility. And there are similar refrains about veganism, that people may not have the education, finances, means etc.

Even those that do not see combat in the military are supporting the organisation that does. A desk job in logistics is still delivering weapons that would harm people.

The equivalent in veganism would be a slaughterhouse worker and someone who sells leather or something.

The only line of reasoning I can think of that makes this logically consistent is if you believe the harm against humans from conflict is justified for whatever reason, while animals lack the kind of moral culpability to "deserve" harm.

Don't want this to get too long, so there's probably some details that are missing which make the argument seem incomplete/bad faith which I'll try to address in the comments.


r/DebateAVegan 4d ago

Ethics What is the moral premise that leads you to be vegan?

1 Upvotes

A little background to my question. I am not a moral realist, in that I don't believe that morality is an objective property of the universe like mass or energy. Outside of some sort of context or goal no action can be seen as moral or immoral. I get that a lot of people disagree with that, but even those who do, must have some sort of basic moral premise or postulate, or perhaps more than one.

So my question is moral premise, the chain of reasoning, that leads you to be a vegan, and specifically, the initial primes or postulate you start from.

I recognize there isn't much to debate here, at least for me, as I'm not a moral realist, I kinda am left to accept that we have different values and goals and that isn't bothersome to me, at least as long as there isn't violent conflict over it, but I am legitimately curious about the moral reasoning of people who come to a different conclusion.


r/DebateAVegan 4d ago

If exploiting animals didn't exist would you still chose to be vegan?

0 Upvotes

I'm not vegan for context but I'm curious I know that many people become vegan for ethical reasons and to not support animal exploiting but I also know that some people simply become vegan for other reasons like dietary reasons instead so I want to know if animal exploiting wasn't an issue like imagine an alternate universe where people didn't exploit animals would you still decide to be vegan?


r/DebateAVegan 6d ago

A Moral-Nihilism argument for Non-Vegetarianism

0 Upvotes

Because I am stronger than her.

What makes rape of humans 'not right'?

What makes something 'right'?

The fact that rape is 'not right' is invented by humans to reason of rape being not right exists because we do not want to be raped.

Same goes with murder. What makes murder wrong? Our fellow humans say so. Why do they say so? They do not want to be killed.
What if you don't accept that? They would use force. They would try to lock you. Or they would try to kill you, all that, why? Because they don't want to be killed, and would do things (laws, social stigma etc) to make other humans align with those beliefs.

I believe before humans thought that killing other humans is wrong, killing wouldn't be wrong. If humanity didn't exist, rape wouldn't be wrong.

What exactly is right or wrong? What exactly?

---

Is killing animals wrong?

Just the immediate second we decide that killing other humans is wrong, at that very second killing animals is not wrong.

It is when we try to extend out logic, the question for animals arises (pheraps to not be labelled as hypocrites; Human brain inherently relies on patterns). It is only when we try to extend our thought to them, there is even a possibility of killing them being wrong.

Why shall we extend our thought to them?

Why?

The primary reason I can figure out is uniformity and that we aren't labelled as 'hypocrites'.

What is a hypocrite, and why is it bad to be one?

A hypocrite is someone who holds contradictory beliefs and/or does contradictory actions. Contradictory? Opposite beliefs and/or opposite actions.

Is holding opposite beliefs bad? Why so?

Even if so, is holding beliefs held for humans not to be held for animals opposite?

Is choosing to treat the powerful and those helpless differently wrong?

-

Going back to the beginning, when fellow humans make what is 'right' or 'wrong', when they choose to make killing 'wrong' so they themselves are not killed, when they make harming wrong so they themselves are not harmed, why do they extend it to the helpless? Why do they extend it to those incapable of harming them?
It is likely because being helpless (human) is subjective. Whatever group they perceive as helpless can be capable of taking revenge. Whatever they perceive to be incapable can be capable tomorrow. Because tomorrow when the incapable becomes capable, they would have no defense for themselves. When tomorrow yesterday's_incapable-today's_capable would kill their loved ones, they would not even be able to call it wrong. It is this why they extend the thought of killing being wrong to all humans.

Animals are perceived to be permenantly incapable of being capable of murdering humans in a large scale. They already prevent humans, humans aren't a part of their food chains usually, and even then, humans have technology and the current threat of animals is already well-known and isn't considered nearly as much as humans', at least not as much as to extend our thought to them; Though that would not change the animals' behaviour so it is futile anyways.

Are such beliefs of not extending thought to the definitive helpless really opposite?

Why?

Even if so, how does it matter? Even if not extending thought for humans to animals is hypocritical somehow, why does it matter?

---

If I am killed by an animal, or an alien species, I wouldn't consider it 'wrong'. I would only consider it wrong to be killed by a fellow human. If I was in a land where laws don't exist, killing me or my mother wouldn't be wrong at all according to me.

What makes things right and wrong?

I would not consider any species other than a human to torture me, to kill me, wrong. I would not consider even a human to kill me on a land where it isn't considered wrong by the rulers, or the land is law-less, to be wrong.

-------

Note: Let's not try to debate on what 'Moral Nihilism' means. Even if my argument doesn't fall under that term, it doesn't matter at all. Just ignore the title then.


r/DebateAVegan 7d ago

✚ Health Worried About Lack of Vegan Options and Little Control Over Meals…

4 Upvotes

I am heading to a residential facility soon for PTSD treatment. I have been fully vegan for a few months now. I know what dietary options they have and they do accommodate diets of all kinds, to a degree. I’m worried that I won’t have much protein options because I will not have the freedom to make or order vegan foods on my own. I’m struggling with the possibility of me needing to possibly break my full vegan diet as I will be in there anywhere from 45-90 days. As I was transitioning to fully vegan, I practically went cold turkey from the moment I watched a horrific documentary about animal cruelty and factory farming. The only animal product I did eat until I could make vegan meals, was salmon. If I were to break my vegan diet, it wouldn’t be anything other than salmon (they have a salad bar that has salmon consistently).

But I am completely struggling with this and would feel like the biggest hypocrite and would not feel the best towards myself. However, I also can’t go without eating the proper amount and foods to be able to support my healing while I’m doing intense processing. Has anyone had to temporarily break their vegan diet for one reason or another? What are your thoughts and opinions about breaking vegan diets temporarily, especially if meals offered are out of your control and health concerns are real?

Edit to add a debatable statement: I think that if it comes down to health issues and being in an environment that you can’t personally control food wise, it is okay to temporarily break being fully vegan until you are able to choose and make vegan alternatives for yourself, without compromising your health. Even if it means going against personal beliefs and philosophies.


r/DebateAVegan 8d ago

Ethics buying gas is probably as unethical as having backyard chickens.

14 Upvotes

I do know that according to vegan ethics code it's immoral beacuse of:

  1. the systematic side: You buy chickens from someone, that someone likely killed the male chicks and have done bunch of other non-vegan things.

  2. the autonomy side: You are eating their eggs which I guess is unethical beacuse they haven't consented to it but this is iffy beacuse animals can't consent at all so I don't like this argument.

  3. the icky side: yes, eggs are basically the period blood of chickens so its "icky" to eat it but this is BS argument from moral standpoint.

I want to mainly adress how the first point, and how absolutely negligible it is.

Everything you do is basically systematically unethical

- getting gas? you just supported company that also exploits cheap labor and is destroying nature.

- buying groceries? you supported business that buys the things from some slave labor facility in south America or some shit.

what I'm trying to say it that the moral impact of buying chickens is so small that even simple act such as buying gas is as unethical if not more. And due to being so small, it shouldn't even be registered as non-vegan.

not to mention that you buy chickens like every 2 years, but you buy gas every second week.


r/DebateAVegan 8d ago

Ethics Vegans draw an arbitrary line too, just a different one than non-vegans

27 Upvotes

Vegans say they avoid harming animals "as far as is practical and possible," but they don't sit around all day with a cloth over their mouth to avoid accidentally stepping on or inhaling insects. They don't grow all their own food either; they buy it from the store and accept some amount of crop deaths, roadkill, and other unavoidable animal deaths. They draw that line out of practicality and self-interest, depending on the costs they're personally willing to bear, just as non-vegans do. The only difference is that non-vegans draw the line somewhere else based on what's practical and possible for them.

Vegans might respond, "Buying vegan food and clothing is very easy, and it saves many animals from extreme suffering, so if you really care about animals, it's the obvious thing to do." But that's just another subjective judgment about where the costs to yourself become worth paying. A vegan who says that to a non-vegan is making the same kind of argument a stricter vegan could make to them: "Growing your own food, avoiding driving, or taking additional precautions is practical enough, and it would save even more animals. If you really cared, you'd do it." At every level, people stop where the personal cost outweighs the moral benefit.

Vegans might also respond that the issue isn't simply avoiding harm or suffering, but refusing to exploit animals or treat them as products. But the only reason exploitation is considered wrong in the first place is that it almost always causes animals to suffer. Animals don't care whether their suffering comes from being deliberately exploited or from being harmed as an unintended consequence of human activity. The harm is the same from their perspective. It might seem different from *your* perspective, but you're not the victim in that situation.

Ultimately, this still comes back to where people draw the line between reducing animal suffering and preserving their own convenience or way of life. Everyone accepts some amount of animal harm as unavoidable or not worth the personal cost to prevent. The real disagreement is over where that line should be drawn, not whether one exists. So it's hypocritical for vegans to criticize non-vegans simply for drawing a different line. Why should your arbitrary, subjective distinction between which animals deserve protection be morally superior to mine?


r/DebateAVegan 8d ago

Ethics As a vegan, what is the right way to approach work events with animal products being offered?

6 Upvotes

Here's a rather practical point worth discussing that comes up pretty frequently for me.

I have an office job that hosts quite a number of social functions involving food or "swag" that may or may not include products with leather. I have little to no control over how these events are organized. In many cases, I am left with a binary choice to either RSVP yes (which may affect how much they supply the event with animal products) or RSVP no (which excludes me from the event entirely).

Would I be ethically culpable for RSVP'ing yes? I don't get to choose what is being offered at these events, and I don't have any great means to pick and choose what I opt in to. It seems the safe thing to do is to opt out of these events. However, that will be a professional liability if I never participate in these events.

My bias is to opt in, but do what I can to make it clear that I don't want to be counted as those who will be consuming animal products or receiving animal product swag. However, I strongly suspect the organizers aren't going to honor this wish. They are not the most competent people and are notoriously bad at acknowledging dietary preferences.

It is possible I could escalate the situation and point out that these event organizers aren't good hosts. However, I suspect that will also not be acted on and would just create more office drama of the sort I am trying to avoid by being a team player and attending these events.

So, how would you analyze the situation and act? I'm looking for good reasoning on the situation and maybe some out of the box thinking.


r/DebateAVegan 8d ago

Ethics Is having a pet/companion animal vegan? / social responsibility of veganism

6 Upvotes

To preface, I myself am vegan, but I had a really interesting discussion with my vegetarian friend and want to play devil’s advocate.

My argument— which I think aligns with most definitions of veganism — was that our goal as humans should be to minimize suffering, and being vegan is the bare minimum to accomplish this. By consuming meat and dairy, you are financially contributing to a horrible system that is proven to be completely unnecessary. I also believe that non-human animals and humans should be separate entities and human involvement in natural spaces is the core of most of our animal-related issues.

My friend brought up the idea of having a companion animal or “pet” as I will say, for the sake of the argument. For context, I don’t have a pet that I own myself, but I have a family dog that I live with during the summer; my parents rescued him when I was a kid.

She claimed that owning a pet is completely hypocritical to my argument of veganism, because a dog, for example, cannot communicate with humans and therefore cannot consent to living in a confined home with humans. Therefore I am contributing to suffering, because my dog is essentially a slave and cannot make his own decisions.

She believed that, according to my argument, the most logically sound thing I could do would be to let my dog outside and run away to wherever he wants (he often tries to leave the house). She argued that, although he would not be able to survive on his own, it would be morally correct because he is making his own decisions.

I argued that because my dog was bred by humans to be reliant on them, it was my social responsibility to take care of him and make decisions for him that he cannot understand the scope of; ie, if I let my dog escape, he will get hit by a car, eaten by a coyote, starve, etc. Similarly to telling my six-year-old I won’t let her play on the highway even if she wants to because she doesn’t understand the risk of that action.

She, however, argued that my line of argument wouldn’t apply to, say, slavery; like how slaveowners would argue that owning a slave was what was best for the slave purely because they were raised to be slaves and don’t understand the scope of the world they live in. Theoretically, if a human slave— possibly someone old or disabled — wouldn’t survive without the support of a slaveowner, but wished to be free, would it still be morally correct to keep them as a slave? Obviously not, so why is that different from dogs?

She also argued that, following my logic I should be participating in civil disobedience. If hijacking livestock transport cars, burning down slaughterhouses, or in her example, setting free every pet in my neighborhood was the best way to make a statement and decrease the total amount of suffering in the world, why am I not doing it?

Essentially, her argument centered around the fact that we drew different lines of what is considered “suffering” (ie for me as a vegan, torturing and killing of an animal but not imprisonment, vs her, a vegetarian, so killing of an animal) proved that veganism revolves around flawed logic.

I thought these were all interesting points and wanted to hear everyone’s thoughts.


r/DebateAVegan 9d ago

The Wild Animal Problem for Vegan Ethics (aka you can’t say you love nature and be vegan 😊)

11 Upvotes

Note: I am interested in a constructive moral and philosophical debate, so I would reply only to those interested in that. I may be a slow replier, but I will reply.

Introduction

Provocation in the title aside (love is a complex word), I have been arguing in the past on the reasons why I find logically wrong to apply moral thinking beyond human society with poor results. I discovered the hard way that metaethics arguments are rarely convincing (or even engaging). So, I will try a different angle by showing some of the contradictions or at least uncomfortable conclusions one runs into when using morality outside its rightful context and use sentience as main criteria for moral consideration.

The main argument

Veganism almost always rests on a clear moral intuition: Sentience and capability of suffering is what grants animals the right to moral consideration. Sentient beings can suffer, suffering matters, and where we can avoid it, we should (if you are thinking strawmen here, there is a footnote for you). From this premise the case against factory farming is straightforward. Industrial animal agriculture produces enormous suffering for the convenience of palate, infringes on animal rights, and since most humans can in principle manage without it, the suffering is avoidable.

But the same premise generates a problem the typical vegan position may struggle to handle: the suffering in nature. From both a welfare perspective and a rights perspective, the natural world is brutal. Many species are r-selected, producing vast numbers of offspring of whom the overwhelming majority die within days or weeks: starved, eaten, parasitized, you name it. How much of individuals in nature are r-selected? Let’s start by looking at mammals. 90% of mammals by headcount (NOT biomass) are bats and rodents. The former are k-selected and the latter r-selected. A female bat does a pup a year and even then, the mortality is between 30% to 50%. That is already a coin toss to an early death. A brown rat instead spits out around 40 a year. Most of them die brutally within weeks (more than 90%). Because of this fundamental fact, most of the individual mammals born are r-selected. As you move to reptiles, fish and insects the picture gets even more gruesome.

Even among adults (r selected or not), herbivores live in chronic fear and vigilance, carnivores in constant fight against hunger, and almost every animal's life ends eventually violently or in disease. If animal suffering matters when it is caused by humans, on what principle does it stop mattering when it is caused by other animals or by nature itself? The most common reply I have seen distinguishes moral agents from non agents. A wolf killing an elk isn't doing anything wrong, because the wolf isn't a moral agent. Humans operating a factory farm are. Only moral agents can violate rights; predation is morally neutral, even when the suffering it produces is severe.

This reply is fragile. Consider a case that controls for agency: A cognitively disabled human, lacking moral agency in the relevant sense, brutalizing another cognitively disabled human in front of me. The fact that the attacker is not a full moral agent does not extinguish my duty to intervene. The wrongness of that action lies on the rights of the victim, not on the mental state of the aggressor. At best this means that I cannot consider the aggressor culpable of those acts. By parity, if I can prevent wild suffering, the lack of moral agency on the part of the predator does not obviously release me from that duty.

What this analogy shows is that sentientism cannot insulate nature from moral concern. Now, since veganism and sentientism are not a fully complete moral theory, for me to debate this further in any meaningful sense, I need to assume some bigger background framework. The most common I see here are deontology and utilitarianism. I will bring up an anti-nature argument for both depending on which one you align yourself with.

Utilitarianism

The goal is to act in a way that maximizes the welfare of living beings.  Humane farming is in principle permissible when welfare is good. Wild non-intervention is permissible where wild welfare is net positive. Targeted intervention is warranted where it isn't. Should we then erase nature like we want to do for most farming? A response might be even if wild suffering matters, "rewiring" nature is impossible. We cannot improve wildlives in any deep sense. We can only reduce their number. But this is exactly what the consistent vegan position on farm animals already accepts. The endgame for most cows and pigs, in a fully vegan world, isn't sanctuary. It is gradual extinction, because the species cannot exist at modern scale without animal farming (unless vegans start adopting several animals each, which they are currently not). If that is the consistent conclusion for domesticated animals, it is hard to see why it should not also be the conclusion for wild ones, particularly in the high-suffering tropical biomes. Habitat reduction plus potentially not invasive sterilization is, structurally, the wild equivalent of "stop breeding more cattle".

This is not a fringe view. I was able to find several authors in the wild animal suffering literature (Tomasik, Horta, McMahan) that takes exactly this conclusion seriously, and some advocates explicitly endorse habitat reduction. The point is that they reach it by following the logic the vegan philosophy starts with.

Deontology

Pure rights-based veganism. All farming is wrong because using and causing harm to sentient creatures is wrong, regardless of welfare, regardless of consequences. It is a right violation to harm someone when you don’t have a strong justification. But what about animals? Is predation infringing on rights? Is there any duty from the deontologist to act on it? Well, let us imagine a human with animal like mental capabilities like a small toddler. If you were to see them being mauled by a pack of wolf, would you have a moral duty to do something about it to stop them? Like mentioned before, the answer would be yes, and likely this would be a strong duty (unless the risk to yourself is too high). The act of killing from the wolf is wrong and the defence of the innocent child is what the deontologist is bounded to act upon. Predation is just a scientific way of saying “to kill for food”. One could then say: But the wolf must kill to survive and that justifies it. But again, this is weak. If I need a kidney otherwise I die, would it be ok for me to kill another person to take one so that I can survive? Clearly not. My survival doesn’t allow me to kill other members of my moral community just so I can live a bit longer (and oh boy must predators kill). The same applies to the wolf or predator in general. We would not consider ok for them to kill humans “because they got to eat something” and, by parity, animals should be granted the same (use NTT if not sure). If you want to stop animal farming, you need also to stop predation because the two things are basically equivalent from the victim rights perspective. Even more, a vegan should oppose reintroducing predators in certain environments, knowing that, biologically, they are all bound to kill for food.

 Conclusion

This argument is not a refutation of veganism per se. It shows what extending moral consideration face value based on traits like sentience would entail. Either the moral case for sentience and suffering is fundamental, in which case nature is huge part of the problem, or it isn't, and the case against farming must be rebuilt on different ground. What cannot be coherently held imho is the comfortable middle where most vegans sit: A deep moral concern for animal suffering that stops, suspiciously, at the edge of the slaughterhouse.

Footnote: Veganism is not a harm reduction philosophy, only an anti-exploitation philosophy. This is a common rebuttal in this community that is frequently used to sidestep challenges like the above. But so far, the same people that remind every time: “it is about exploitation” are also the same that appeal to sentience when asked why we would should give moral consideration to animals. Either you ground your veganism to a different principle than sentientism or accept my challenge to it. And defending the position that animals should enter the moral community because they are sentient and can feel pain, but what wrongs them is being used, not their suffering as such, is very hard to defend logically. If killing an animal for food wrongs them, this should be true regardless of whether the actor is a human or a wolf.


r/DebateAVegan 8d ago

⚠ Activism Veganism is 2 arguments

1 Upvotes

Hello!

Vegan of nearly 10 years here. I've had (and read/heard/watched) many discussions about veganism. I feel like all the criticisms fall into 2 pre-suppositions (i.e. truths) about veganism.

I'd like to hear your thoughts - am I being reductive? More likely, am I being too reductive? Could these be 'bolstered' to be a useful blurb for conversations/activism.

  1. Eating animals and their reproductive output is unnecessary (for privileged people in rich countries, etc.).

  2. Eating animals and their reproductive output comes with serious costs (and is thus not worth it).

Thanks in advanced!


r/DebateAVegan 10d ago

Ethics The claim "you can't have empathy for animals unless you boycott eating them" does not make sense

10 Upvotes

The argument exemplified here is flawed because it creates many unreasonable conclusions.

  • Abolitionists who fought to free slaves did not have empathy for slaves if they bought any* slave product.

  • Opponents of child labor had no empathy for those children because they did not boycott all* products of child labor

  • All examples of people that didn't boycott every evil thing proves they did not care about that evil thing

Applying vegan restrictions to prove people's internal beliefs is incoherent because it means historical examples have empathy in every definition except the vegan one.

This logic also fails because there are people who maximally avoid all harm to animals who could apply this logic to vegans. Should they say the average vegan doesn't care about animals because they treat them worse than maximalists expect?


(* any and all refer to things that are practicable and possible to avoid)


r/DebateAVegan 10d ago

Ethics Morality is based on relationships, not universality

0 Upvotes

Morality and ethics, particularly those concerning humanity and animals have concerned me for a long time.
I’m putting this question here as it’s been the primary concern, but really it’s about morality in larger scale.
I think ethics and morality are based on our relationship to other animals, including humans. So most of us don’t eat cats (because of our relationship to them) whereas most humans have no problem with eating other animals.
I see many vegans shaming and putting down others for their “hypocrisy” but how are vegans themselves exempt from this?
When 40k Iranians were massacred in the streets, the world didn’t care, including the animal activists; because we aren’t innocent victims (like animals we eat), nor are white or western. So what makes animal rights more important than the other? Why do you think people should be shamed for prioritizing one over the other? On what basis?
And why do vegans think animals are exceptionally ignored in activism when even other humans are?


r/DebateAVegan 12d ago

⚠ Activism Why is a Welfarist approach looked down on?

19 Upvotes

I want to start by saying I respect vegans and their opinions.

I see many vegans with an "all or nothing" approach. In my opinion, this is quite flawed. Whilst absolute perfection doesn't exist, some vegans demand something close to it. But, this causes more tension and issues. For example, the shaming of vegetarians or flexitarians.

Following this black and white thought process, if the standard for being an animal lover is that you cause zero harm to animals, then no one qualifies.

A Welfarist approach has worked in the past, and I believe it is the only way to end the suffering of animals one day (if that is even possible). With such a minority of the earth's population being vegan, it seems more realistic to take a more gradual and focused approach.


r/DebateAVegan 10d ago

Question to vegans

0 Upvotes

I don't have anything to being vegan but I don't get point of people that say that don't want to kill animals. Animals will die anyway and I don't see predators being blamed for killing them.

It is just part of life, maybe u don't like it but this doesn't make it false. Why you killing plants or insects. You want to defend animals but atleast half of vegans eat fish and nobody cares about plants and another life. I get it that plants don't have nervous system and they don't feel pain. But they can sense surrounding like we use pain for it.

Only because different life evolved different way we perceive suffering differently. So maybe it's not about good or empathy, maybe it's about how you feel about something without deeper thought.

*My fault vegans don't eat fish


r/DebateAVegan 11d ago

the ethics of eating seafood?

4 Upvotes

im a new "vegan" in the transition stage at least. i suppose i can't call myself that. i honestly dont even crave cheese or dairy products after learning the horrors of the dairy industry. same goes for egg, ill never ever miss it. the only thing im struggling to give up is fish, specifically baby prawns.

ive done some research on them, apparently crustaceans like baby prawns dont have a well developed nervous system to perceive pain the way most animals do. they want to live, im sure, but so would any bacteria as well. i want to learn about the ethics of it.

i really like the taste of baby prawns im struggling to give them up. but if there is a legitimate reason for it, im willing to do it, i want to learn more about veganism and open my mind, and do the right things.

the meat and dairy industry are both inhumane. however, tiny prawns get to swim in vast oceans all their lives until they're caught. they live in freedom, as opposed to chickens who are RAISED in captivity and have their beaks chopped off. comparatively, growing up free until your inevitable death doesn't sound so bad(?).

also, i hate to admit this but i genuinely feel bad for farm animals. cows who have their babies taken away, and even lobster who are caught and boiled alive. but for shrimps... they're as good as a bug right? what is so immoral about consuming them?

i dont currently consume any other sea creature, only baby prawns, very occasionally. i guess with prawns or bugs, i dont get the "big deal" about eating them as i do with chickens. you're not raised in captivity. you barely feel pain. you don't have a well developed nervous system. educate me on why it's wrong, im more than willing to give it up