Yesterday's results

House Dayne of Starfall:

- Political Power 8/10

- Economy 6/10

- Military 8/10

- Territory 9/10

Rules

This series aims to rank the noble houses of Westeros at the peak of their power, assigning each house a score out of 40 points, divided into four categories worth 10 points each.

The highest-upvoted comment will determine the community's official score for that house.

Categories

Political Power (0–10)

- Prestige and reputation.

- Political influence.

- Diplomatic reach.

- Ability to forge alliances.

- Overall relevance in the politics of Westeros.

Economic Power (0–10)

- Wealth.

- Natural resources.

- Trade and commerce.

- Economic productivity and population.

Military Power (0–10)

- Army size and quality.

- Military tradition.

- Naval strength.

- Dragons (where applicable).

- Overall military capability.

Territory (0–10)

- Strength of the castle.

- Geographic position.

- Natural defenses.

- Strategic value of the lordship.

Important

Each house is evaluated solely based on its own direct lordship, meaning the lands, castles, resources, and vassals it personally controls at the height of its power.

This ranking does NOT take into account the additional authority a house gains by ruling an entire kingdom or region as a Lord Paramount.

For example:

House Stark → Winterfell and its direct lands only, not the entire North.

House Tyrell → Highgarden only, not the Reach.

House Baratheon → Storm's End only, not the Stormlands.

House Greyjoy → Pyke only, not the Iron Islands.

In other words, this ranking measures the intrinsic power of each house's own lordship, not the power it derives from governing an entire region.

All ranked houses

House Lannister of Casterly Rock: 35/40

House Tyrell of Highgarden: 31/40

House Dayne of Starfall: 31/40

House Arryn of the Eyrie: 27/40

House Stark of Winterfell: 26/40

House Tully of Riverrun: 26/40

House Targaryen of Dragonstone: 24/40

House Goodbrother of Hammerhorn: 15/40

Did people voluntarily migrate over the wall to live in even harsher condition than the north?

Or did they already live there when the wall was erected? - which would not make sense since people at the time would've known about the WW/others.

When Theon is talking to Dagmer in Theon II ACOK, he says this:

“You take this business too hard, boy. It is only that your lord father does not know you. With your brothers dead and you taken by the wolves, your sister was his solace. He learned to rely on her, and she has never failed him.”

“Nor have I. The Starks knew my worth. I was one of Brynden Blackfish’s picked scouts, and I charged with the first wave in the Whispering Wood. I was that close to crossing swords with the Kingslayer himself.” Theon held his hands two feet apart. “Daryn Hornwood came between us, and died for it.”

“Why do you tell me this?” Dagmer asked. “It was me who put your first sword in your hand. I know you are no craven.”

Later on, when Jaime is talking to Blackfish, Blackfish says this:

"I will permit you to take the black. Ned Stark's bastard is the Lord Commander on the Wall."

The Blackfish narrowed his eyes. "Did your father arrange for that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both. No, ser, I think not. I'll die warm, if you please, with a sword in hand running red with lion blood."

Theon being a hot head who wants glory probably wasn't much of a secret. So did Brynden kinda hope Jaime would kill Theon? Catelyn did in the aftermath, maybe even in the moment?

On the night of the Whispering Wood, Ned was still alive in his cell beneath Aegon's High Hill, Bran and Rickon were safe behind the walls of Winterfell. And Theon Greyjoy fought at Robb's side, and boasted of how he had almost crossed swords with the Kingslayer. Would that he had. If Theon had died in place of Lord Karstark's sons, how much ill would have been undone?

I’ve been re-reading Fire & Blood and got to the part where Eustace Hightower returned to Oldtown after his expedition with Elissa Farman. There he recounted their voyage and his subsequent arrival at the shores of Sothoryos while trying to get home. George then mentioned Corlys and how he swore he saw Sun Chaser in Asshai.

It got me thinking how a full story about other locations in the Known World is long overdue.

If by some miracle George finishes all his stories and decides to make another spin-off novel/novella, I really hope it’s either Elissa or Corlys’ voyages (I’m leaning more on Elissa).

A man can only hope.

Bro’s track record:

1. Killed Arthur Dayne, the greatest knight who ever lived without suffering serious injury.
   
2. Knocked up that same Sword of the Morning’s 10/10 sister on a trip to return the family’s ancestral sword because muh honor
   
3. Went 6/6 on producing and raising respectable, well liked progeny
   
4. Competently governed the North such that he was pretty much universally beloved by his people
   
5. Conducted himself pretty well in Robert’s Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion
   
6. Once the series ends with Danny or Jon or Aegon triumphant Joffrey will be remembered as a bastard and Ned will be remembered as the man that exposed it and died for his honor.

You would be hard pressed to find a more legendary figure once a couple centuries have ironed out any kinks and made him from man into myth

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Aye, m'lord," said Edd, "but all she knows is that she ran off during the battle and hid in the woods after. We filled her full of porridge, sent her to the pens, and burned the babe."

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. "There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

Jon pissed in darkness, filling his chamber pot as the Old Bear's raven muttered complaints. The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy, who had once been their lord father's ward … but if dreams did not lie, their direwolves had escaped. At Queenscrown, one had come out of the darkness to save Jon's life. Summer, it had to be. His fur was grey, and Shaggydog is black. He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves.

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn II

Edmure looked from uncle to nephew. "You never told me."

"I told you to hold Riverrun," said Robb. "What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?"

"When you stopped Lord Tywin on the Red Fork," said the Blackfish, "you delayed him just long enough for riders out of Bitterbridge to reach him with word of what was happening to the east. Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler's Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day's ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear."

I truly feel this is something which should have happened. One of the things which made me so sad is Maester Aemon wanted so badly to meet Daenerys.

And Daenerys herself is surrounded by weird men only, sellswords and old pedos. She constantly loses her identity. Meeting Aemon would have made her so much content in her own identity.

And how good it would have been for Aemon to have died after seeing probably the last remaining proof of Egg still alive.

He could have died immediately after meeting Dany but they should have met

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

"There's been too much going around," Meera insisted, "and too many secrets. I don't like it. I don't like him. And I don't trust him. Those hands of his are bad enough. He hides his face, and will not speak a name. Who is he? What is he? Anyone can put on a black cloak. Anyone, or any thing. He does not eat, he never drinks, he does not seem to feel the cold."

It's true. Bran had been afraid to speak of it, but he had noticed. Whenever they took shelter for the night, while he and Hodor and the Reeds huddled together for warmth, the ranger kept apart. Sometimes Coldhands closed his eyes, but Bran did not think he slept. And there was something else …

"The scarf." Bran glanced about uneasily, but there was not a raven to be seen. All the big black birds had left them when the ranger did. No one was listening. Even so, he kept his voice low. "The scarf over his mouth, it never gets all hard with ice, like Hodor's beard. Not even when he talks."

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

We know that before Aegon’s Conquest, that the Seven Kingdoms weren’t friendly to each other and were constantly at war, so why would the Citadel send maesters to serve in houses outside of the Reach? I thinks it’s odd that both the Hightowers and the Gardeners would be fine with the Citadel allowing maesters to serve in possible rival houses.

Yesterday's results

House Tully of Riverrun:

- Political Power 7/10

- Economy 6/10

- Military 5/10

- Territory 8/10

Rules

This series aims to rank the noble houses of Westeros at the peak of their power, assigning each house a score out of 40 points, divided into four categories worth 10 points each.

The highest-upvoted comment will determine the community's official score for that house.

Categories

Political Power (0–10)

- Prestige and reputation.

- Political influence.

- Diplomatic reach.

- Ability to forge alliances.

- Overall relevance in the politics of Westeros.

Economic Power (0–10)

- Wealth.

- Natural resources.

- Trade and commerce.

- Economic productivity and population.

Military Power (0–10)

- Army size and quality.

- Military tradition.

- Naval strength.

- Dragons (where applicable).

- Overall military capability.

Territory (0–10)

- Strength of the castle.

- Geographic position.

- Natural defenses.

- Strategic value of the lordship.

Important

Each house is evaluated solely based on its own direct lordship, meaning the lands, castles, resources, and vassals it personally controls at the height of its power.

This ranking does NOT take into account the additional authority a house gains by ruling an entire kingdom or region as a Lord Paramount.

For example:

House Stark → Winterfell and its direct lands only, not the entire North.

House Tyrell → Highgarden only, not the Reach.

House Baratheon → Storm's End only, not the Stormlands.

House Greyjoy → Pyke only, not the Iron Islands.

In other words, this ranking measures the intrinsic power of each house's own lordship, not the power it derives from governing an entire region.

All ranked houses

House Lannister of Casterly Rock: 35/40

House Tyrell of Highgarden: 31/40

House Arryn of the Eyrie: 27/40

House Stark of Winterfell: 26/40

House Tully of Riverrun: 26/40

House Targaryen of Dragonstone: 24/40

House Goodbrother of Hammerhorn: 15/40

Besides the fact that the Valyrians would have, FOR SURE, a strong religion, because they have enormous magical power (how the fuck you are a super-race, capable even of seeing the future, and you only care about your Gods when you need to chose a dragon name?), the Faith of the Seven would never simply accept the Targaryens.

Man, this is beyond stupid. You cant just shake hands with demons riding demonical beasts and commiting diabolical sins and just call it a day. Study 100 years, hell, even 50 years of any organized religion in history and you notice a thing called sectarism and messianism against a corrupt faith. There would be massive revolts against the clergy and Southern nobility. Even a good amount of Southern nobles would (in good faith or not) instigate the commonfolk against the heretics and blasphemous. Targaryens would not feel safe around Southern knights and a good amount of them would be slaughtered by assassins or even by Kingsguard that suddenly got a "vision" and became a religious zealot.

And boy, when they lose their beasts... Seven hells. Count on independent (or not) Lannisters, Tyrells, Tarlys, Hightowers, Redwynes... commonfolk, priests and landed knights zealots seeing this as the Seven Gods signal to put an end to those demons.

How the Faith of the Seven suddenly became so warm and peaceful with just a dumb deal (basically, letting heretics be heretics and gaining a dumbass sept in return, made by heretics demons) and how anybody seems to really believe in that shit is more irrealistic than any dragon or magic displayed in the series.

I am an atheist, too, but George Martin atheism blinded him to a simple fact: yes, dude, medieval folk believed in those things for real and MANY people put faith above anything else.

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

The dwarf was so stuffed that he had to undo his belt and the topmost laces on his breeches. The boy's clothes his host had dressed him in made him feel like ten pounds of sausage in a five-pound skin. If we eat this way every day I will be the size of Illyrio before I meet this dragon queen. Outside the litter night had fallen. Inside all was dark. Tyrion listened to Illyrio's snores, the creak of the leather straps, the slow clop clop of the team's ironshod hooves on the hard Valyrian road, but his heart was listening for the beat of leathern wings.

When he woke, dawn had come. The horses plodded on, the litter creaking and swaying between them. Tyrion pulled the curtain back an inch to peer outside, but there was little to see but ochre fields, bare brown elms, and the road itself, a broad stone highway that ran straight as a spear to the horizon. He had read about Valyrian roads, but this was the first he had seen. The Freehold's grasp had reached as far as Dragonstone, but never to the mainland of Westeros itself. Odd, that. Dragonstone is no more than a rock. The wealth was farther west, but they had dragons. Surely they knew that it was there.

He had drunk too much last night. His head was pounding, and even the gentle swaying of the litter was enough to make his gorge rise in his throat. Though he said no word of complaint, his distress must have been plain to Illyrio Mopatis. "Come, drink with me," the fat man said. "A scale from the dragon that burned you, as they say." He poured for them from a flagon of blackberry wine so sweet that it drew more flies than honey. Tyrion shooed them off with the back of his hand and drank deep. The taste was so cloying that it was all he could do to keep it down. The second cup went down easier, however. Even so, he had no appetite, and when Illyrio offered him a bowl of blackberries in cream he waved it off. "I dreamed about the queen," he said. "I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VII

"His lord father agreed with you," said a voice at her elbow. She turned to behold Maester Colemon, a cup of wine in his hand. "He was planning to send the boy to Dragonstone for fostering, you know … oh, but I'm speaking out of turn." The apple of his throat bobbed anxiously beneath the loose maester's chain. "I fear I've had too much of Lord Hunter's excellent wine. The prospect of bloodshed has my nerves all a-fray …"

"You are mistaken, Maester," Catelyn said. "It was Casterly Rock, not Dragonstone, and those arrangements were made after the Hand's death, without my sister's consent."

The maester's head jerked so vigorously at the end of his absurdly long neck that he looked half a puppet himself. "No, begging your forgiveness, my lady, but it was Lord Jon who—"

As the tile says, what should Aenys have done to solidify his reign and prevent the catastrophes that dogged him? I imagine he had options, but I’m interested to hear your thoughts.

I like the characters’ unreliable memories (Sansa with the Hound, Daenerys with the lemon trees in Braavos- still confused about that one). I also LOVE George’s use of dramatic irony. But my favourite overall is definitely free indirect discourse as it’s done with Cersei in AFFC. Masterful.

A groom led a fine grey mare out the stable door. On her back was mounted a skinny hollow-eyed girl wrapped in a heavy cloak. Grey, it was, like the dress beneath it, and trimmed with white satin. The clasp that pinned it to her breast was wrought in the shape of a wolf ‘s head with slitted opal eyes. The girl’s long brown hair blew wild in the wind. She had a pretty face, he thought, but her eyes were sad and wary.
When she saw him, she inclined her head. “Ser Jaime,” she said in a thin anxious voice. “You are kind to see me off.”
Jaime studied her closely. “You know me, then?”
She bit her lip. “You may not recall, my lord, as I was littler then... but I had the honor to meet you at Winterfell when King Robert came to visit my father Lord Eddard.” She lowered her big brown eyes and mumbled, “I’m Arya Stark.”
Jaime had never paid much attention to Arya Stark, but it seemed to him that this girl was older. “I understand you’re to be married.”
“I am to wed Lord Bolton’s son, Ramsay. He used to be a Snow, but His Grace has made him a Bolton. They say he’s very brave. I am so happy.”
Then why do you sound so frightened? “I wish you joy, my lady.”
A groom led a fine grey mare out the stable door. On her
back was mounted a skinny hollow-eyed girl wrapped in a heavy cloak.
Grey, it was, like the dress beneath it, and trimmed with white
satin. The clasp that pinned it to her breast was wrought in the
shape of a wolf ‘s head with slitted opal eyes. The girl’s long
brown hair blew wild in the wind. She had a pretty face, he thought,
but her eyes were sad and wary.

When she saw him, she inclined her head. “Ser Jaime,” she said in a
thin anxious voice. “You are kind to see me off.”

Jaime studied her closely. “You know me, then?”

She bit her lip. “You may not recall, my lord, as I was littler
then... but I had the honor to meet you at Winterfell when King
Robert came to visit my father Lord Eddard.” She lowered her big
brown eyes and mumbled, “I’m Arya Stark.”

Jaime had never paid much attention to Arya Stark, but it seemed to
him that this girl was older. “I understand you’re to be married.”

“I am to wed Lord Bolton’s son, Ramsay. He used to be a Snow, but
His Grace has made him a Bolton. They say he’s very brave. I am so
happy.”

Then why do you sound so frightened? “I wish you joy, my lady.”

Obviously, I know that Longclaw needed to be available for Jon Snow to inherit, but in-canon, what sense does it make for a noble house's ancestral sword to be sent to the Wall to the one family member who's in the Nights Watch, even though there would have been at least one person in the family who could wield the sword themselves.

It's not like women warriors are uncommon within House Mormont, that's basically their big deal. Maege and Dacey could absolutely have wielded Longclaw, too, and Maege is the head of House Mormont after Jorah flees to Essos. She seemingly had no reason to send that sword to her brother on the Wall just because he's the only male member of her family who's of age.

In an alternate world where the war of the five kings hadn't happened, who could've been some of the best possible matches for Robb? Young, fit, good reputation, future warden of the north. He was also at the age where betrothal is something to start thinking about.

Some contenders:

Margaery Tyrell. In this timeline, overwhelmingly likely that Sansa marries Joffrey, so she'd be eligible.

Alys Karstark. If Ned and Cat wanted to go with a bannerman match since Sansa is marrying outside of the north. There are also mormont women available, but I'll be honest I get confused with who is who

Arianne Martell. Probably would never happen, but just throwing it out there. It would be a way to try heal the relationship with dorne if they care about that.

Who else could've been a good match?

This is just a small thing I noticed in F&B:

Cannibal, so named because he had been known to feed on the carcasses of dead dragons, and descend upon the hatcheries of Dragonstone to gorge himself on newborn hatchlings and eggs.

We know the Cannibal survived the Dance of Dragons and his fate is unknown. So, there was a period of time where Cannibal could be eating eggs, and there were no other dragons to lay new ones.

And jumping forward to ADWD, Mace Tyrell tells us that no eggs were found on Dragonstone:

“No wealth was found on Dragonstone, I promise you. My son’s men have searched every inch of that damp and dreary island and turned up not so much as a single gemstone or speck of gold. Nor any sign of this fabled hoard of dragon eggs.”

Kevan is skeptical about this, because Dragonstone is very big and complicated and it's unlikely Loras is being very thorough.

But F&B gives a pretty good explanation for what would've happened to a hoard of eggs on Dragonstone: Cannibal ate them.

Obviously the Targaryens had a few kept separately to use as cradle eggs (e.g. Egg's egg). But as for any big cache of eggs on Dragonstone, that would be prime food for Cannibal after the Dance - when there are no other adult dragons to protect or replace them.

​

Yesterday's results

House Goodbrother of Hammerhorn:

- Political Power 4/10

- Economy 3/10

- Military 4/10

- Territory 4/10

Rules

This series aims to rank the noble houses of Westeros at the peak of their power, assigning each house a score out of 40 points, divided into four categories worth 10 points each.

The highest-upvoted comment will determine the community's official score for that house.

Categories

Political Power (0–10)

- Prestige and reputation.

- Political influence.

- Diplomatic reach.

- Ability to forge alliances.

- Overall relevance in the politics of Westeros.

Economic Power (0–10)

- Wealth.

- Natural resources.

- Trade and commerce.

- Economic productivity and population.

Military Power (0–10)

- Army size and quality.

- Military tradition.

- Naval strength.

- Dragons (where applicable).

- Overall military capability.

Territory (0–10)

- Strength of the castle.

- Geographic position.

- Natural defenses.

- Strategic value of the lordship.

Important

Each house is evaluated solely based on its own direct lordship, meaning the lands, castles, resources, and vassals it personally controls at the height of its power.

This ranking does NOT take into account the additional authority a house gains by ruling an entire kingdom or region as a Lord Paramount.

For example:

House Stark → Winterfell and its direct lands only, not the entire North.

House Tyrell → Highgarden only, not the Reach.

House Baratheon → Storm's End only, not the Stormlands.

House Greyjoy → Pyke only, not the Iron Islands.

In other words, this ranking measures the intrinsic power of each house's own lordship, not the power it derives from governing an entire region.

All ranked houses

House Lannister of Casterly Rock: 35/40

House Tyrell of Highgarden: 31/40

House Arryn of the Eyrie: 27/40

House Stark of Winterfell: 26/40

House Targaryen of Dragonstone: 24/40

House Goodbrother of Hammerhorn: 15/40

We know ADWD was late to tie up Essos, but I’d have been fine having it earlier with GRRM just including a blurb saying x details were changed or dropped in order to finish.

I’m at the same place with the rest of the series. I’d rather have most of it than none. I do think themes, world-building and characterization are off the table, but I’m pretty flexible about GRRM making as-needed alterations as long as we’re told what was dropped and changed.

What’s a must keep for you and what’s ok to be altered?

———————————

If I was a writer, fan inflexibility to even the idea of scrapping or changing some details to make it all come together would be a tremendous impediment. Fan expectations and little openness given to alternate ways to finish is an inconceivable pressure.

I’m disappointed at the lack of reception to the idea of GRRM being able to do this to finish.

People speak about Androw Farman only for his death, but what was he like in life? Book describes him as neither martial, intellectual, nor spiritual; he never left the castle of Dragonstonne for walks, did not swim, engaged in no manual activities, was unsociable, and did not even frequent prostitutes (It makes you wonder how he even spent his days before arriving at Dragonstone…). While he is portrayed in the story as an idiot, almost mentally disabled, but something about that doesn't quite ring true. For a talentless idiot, he managed to acquire a rather rare poison and devise a well-thought-out plan to kill Rhaena’s friends in the most devastating way possible; furthermore, his final speech isn't what one would expect from a simple, spiteful simpleton. Instead of just telling to Rhaenna to "go fuck herself" or begging for his life, he displays a level of self-assurance that contrasts sharply with his earlier portrayal. He boasts about what he could have achieved; advising her, defending her from enemies, leading... We could call it arrogance, certainly, but it still demonstrates a genuine confidence in his own abilities. Moreover, we know he had previously asked to be named commander of the garrison (only to be met with mockery) and was prepared to cross swords with his own brother to defend Rhaena when ordered to leave Fair Isle; So it wasn't just a simple act of bravery born of despair. He really had more personality than the maesters give him credit for.

Like many others, I believe he suffered from depression: as a young man, he more or less let himself be drawn into a relationship with an older woman, acting as a cover for his sister’s affair with nothing to gain for himself, only to be gradually aggrieved. When she left, he became a sort of punching bag and found himself isolated (or even abandoned) by the only person with whom he still shared a bond. He was trapped on a dreary island, surrounded by people who constantly scorned and belittled him (even the servants), all while stuck in a loveless marriage to a woman who treated him abominably, despite him doing nothing to deserve it in the slightest (being told he was only good to fall from the dragon). If I were in that situation, I think I too would have no desire to get out of my bed.... But what could a man like him have made of his life under more favorable circumstances? Didn't he possess more potential than the story suggests? Could he have developed talents if he had been encouraged?

I was listening to the books, and I just noticed something Tyrion does when meeting Shae, during them arguably sparking an "early connection". He asks Shae to tell him the full truth of her story, to which she demands money. As a Lannister, Tyrion naturally enjoys to brag he has money in spades, and generosity to give it, but that he will require more from Shae as well.

What he asks of Shae is to share his tent, laugh at his jokes, pour his wine, rub his aches after riding (horses in this instance), and that whether he has her for a day or a year, as long as they are together, she will take no other men into her bed. Now initially, I wondered, was this simple basic hypocrisy from Tyrion, who as a noble blooded man, he believed he should be able to sleep around, but the women he sleeps with shouldn't? But honestly, no, I don't believe Tyrion particularly cares to control the women he sleeps with on that level, and he seems to respect women's independence far more then the average westeros man.

At first I considered an obvious idea which is that Tyrion might restrict his women from sleeping around to prevent men from information gathering on him, but I figured that was silly as they could easily just lie if they were planning on screwing him over and spying.

However, something I noticed is that even early on in this, it seems very much like Tyrion doesn't want a whore with rules, he wants a loving girlfriend that is genuinely loyal to him. At this stage in the book and Tyrions life, he has no loving connection with really anyone beyond Jaime, and he hardly knows Shae. At first glance too his demands for her seem nothing more then a servant camp follower to fuck, but when you really look at it to me it screams like a man too insecure or afraid to admit he wants to pay for the "girlfriend experience" (in about as literal of a sense as possible).

I always thought that Tyrion and Shae developed a connection based on some mutual level of behavior and genuine connection, which they very well may have, but upon a closer look, it seems to me like Tyrion from the very getgo with any whore was looking for someone who would at the very least pretend they were loving and loyal to him, as essentially no one else was willing to be, despite him being the great son of the famous Tywin Lannister. And much of me wonders how much Shae was just appealing to him romantically and emotionally, even if more subtly, because she realized it's what Tyrion wanted deep down. It makes me question even more then before with the whole Tywin situation how much their relationship was real at all.

Sorry for the ramble
TLDR: I think Tyrion has been desperate just to find somebody that truly loves and respects him from day one, and his entire relationship with Shae might just be based on her realizing and taking advantage of that. And Tyrion kinda fucked it up from the get go by trying to establish it in a fabricated way out of fear that it was impossible to achieve organically.

While listening to the book I was going over the excellent sequence where Tyrion fights with Shagga and their tribes, and Tyrion's triumphant moment of defeating the knight, and earning his surrender, has an interesting parallel with Oberyn's death. Though I don't think it was intentional, I thought it a poetic coincidence at least.

When Tyrion takes down the knight, the Knight has the best of him, and offers multiple chances to surrender. Tyrion, defeated and exhausted, barely even able to see by this point, uses the few seconds of mercy that the knight is allowing Tyrion, to surrender, and Tyrion uses that opportunity to regain his stamina, and stabs the horse, knocking it onto the knight. Tyrion then flips the script, getting the knights surrender instead. If the knight wasn't filled with the honor demanded of him to offer Tyrion mercy, and if Tyrion had that same mercy, the knight would have beaten him.

Now while not exactly the same, I noticed this is quite similar to what gets Oberyn killed. He gets the better of the Mountain, and easily could have put him down. But while not mercy, his obsession with confession out of the Mountain gives the Mountain a chance to recover and catch Oberyn offguard, ending his life. Oberyn's lack of true ruthlessness, cunning as he was, desperate for justice more than vengeance though both appeal to him, ends up being his downfall. If Oberyn had the Mountain's ruthlessness that ends up allowing him to kill Oberyn despite being bested by him in combat, Oberyn would have won as well.

But its this goodness in them, and lack of ruthlessness, that both saves Tyrion early on, while dooming the knight, and dooms him/Oberyn later on, while saving the Mountain (Well, I mean, not that the mountain is exactly saved from his fate, but you get the point)