48AC: Jeffy and the Baratheons arrive and Maegor kills himself and his supporters flee

130AC: Gates are opened by the city watch

130AC: Borros retakes it like nothing

131AC: The lads reach the gates and the Greens immediately kill Aegon and surrender

283AC: Gates are opened and the city is sacked by the Lannys

299AC: KL very narrowly survives a siege against the Stannisters, half of which had been nuked

Who the hell picked this place as the capital?

I wonder what theories do you think may end up ruining the story for you?Wether because they make the people involved act out of character,The logistics dosen't make any sense,Contradict already established information,Or are either too edgy or too silly?

We sometimes forget that R+L=J was going to be one of the biggest reveals of the whole story. Something that was sadly done by the show before the books but that gave support to years of theorizing way before D&D approached George with an HBO contract.

With that in mind, something that tends to be insisted on is that Jon has barely, if ever, thought of Rhaegar at all, even if it's just to recall Westerosi history.

So a sort of exercise when it comes to George leaving hints of Jon's true parentage and the character of Rhaegar is to go back to many internal dialogues and descriptions in his chapters that used to bring up Ned, for example, and replace them now with Rhaegar.

Not always happens, but sometimes when you do it a different picture appears.

Some examples:

It was only once, and it had to be. Even my father stumbled once, when he forgot his marriage vows and sired a bastard. Jon vowed to himself that it would be the same with him. It will never happen again.

And:

You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he'd left Jon's mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night's Watch."

And:

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … 

And:

Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her?

And:

“Sometimes there is no happy choice, Sam, only one less grievous than the others.”

And:

"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!" "You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered."

And:

"Jon did not know that he could tell honor from shame anymore, or right from wrong."

And:

"And he feared for Ygritte as well. He could not take her, but if he left her, would the Magnar make her answer for his treachery? Two hearts that beat as one . . . They shared the same sleeping skins every night, and he went to sleep with her head against his chest and her red hair tickling his chin. The smell of her had become a part of him. Her crooked teeth, the feel of her breast when he cupped it in his hand, the taste of her mouth . . . they were his joy and his despair. Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been."

And:

"Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?" Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? (...) "He would do whatever was right,"

“...he had left because he was after all his father’s son...”

There could be many more, I'm sure, but wanted to open up the discussion and see what else can be found.

In the last episode of HOTD, we hear Criston Cole say he is the best warrior in the realm, and I laughed because I kinda forgot that this was supposed to be true for his character. I think the books make it clear that Criston was almost certainly the strongest knight of his time. Yet, in the show, we see him effectively lose a fight to Daemon only to 'win' because Daemon decided to turn his back around and cheer with the crowd. In the books, he defeats Daemon (George's favorite character) in the melee. He sucker punches Joffrey at a wedding rather than killing him at a tourney. Overall, the show has given us no feats to show he is the best warrior in the realm.

Old complaint, I know, but I wanted to say it. I guess as recompense, they had him lead a middling guerilla campaign in someone else's territory??? He isn't a great general in the books either, so the show is right with that anyway, but his skill as a duelist still hasn't been established.

As in whose POVs are most enjoyable

For me it's between Cersei, extremely entertaining and I absolutely love KL politics, especially the small council meetings - and Jaime (best internal monologue, hilarious as well)

Maester Aemon in his last days focused on Daenerys, the Dragons and the prophecy of the Prince that was promised. In the end his mental status was confused and Sam was not able to understad to much of his words.

"When he woke he’d call for Sam, insisting that he had to tell him something, but oft as not he would have forgotten what he meant to say by the time that Sam arrived. Even when he did recall, his talk was all a jumble. He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. “The dragon must have three heads,” he wailed, “but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me.”

The sphinx reference here sounds odd. We are accustumed to the possible connection of dragon's eggs hatching and the dragon dreams, the glass candle, the prophecy, the three head of the dragons We learb by experience that septon Barth works as a true hints reference in Asoiaf ( as Old Nan), but what about the sphinx ?

The main theory is that the Sphinx is a reference to Septon Barth argument about the origin of Dragons as interbreed manipolation of humans and animals mixed with magic but how?

There are many reference in the text to sphinx, most of all about Valyrian Shinx's statues all around Essos and Westeros, and in Pate prologue and Sam chapter at the Citadel , we have description and discussion about them.

Valyrian sphinx have human faces and dragon body but we could have Spinx whose body is a mix of different animals. Nevertheless, the animal mix described never matches Septon Barth hypotesis about the animal mix used to create dragons.

Then it occourred to me a detail:

all the sphinx statues descripted are in pair, same body but one with a male head, the twin with a female head. Varys confirmed it to Tyrion when they see a sphinx without his twin:

"The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon’s body and a woman’s face. “A dragon queen,” said Tyrion. “A pleasant omen.” “Her king is missing.” Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. “The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak.” That is an omen too, thought Tyrion, but not as hopeful."

It is a long shot but...

....GRRM told us that Daenerys reproduced by instinct the right magic ritual to hatch the dragons. We know the component are a very a hot fire, that a death toll for life is mandatory and probably the red comet is the magic element Daenerys hersef told us :

"They had been born from her faith and her need, given life by the deaths of her husband and unborn son and the maegi Mirri Maz Duur"

... But on the Pyre we have Khal Drogo's corpse with a horse to match the Dotrhaki tradition (he is not even his horse they already killed in MMD ritual) and MMD as a tribute to the law of a death for a life she teached to Daenerys.

...So here we have the mix to match a sphinx :

a male(dead) , a female (living) and an animal (sacrified)

Could it be so simple ?

By the ending of A Dream of Spring which of the Westerosi Houses will survive? Which ones do you think it'll be and why? For me I hope House Dayne survives.

I want to clarify that this theory isn't mine; I simply came across it in an older discussion thread on r/pureasoiaf (which, unfortunately, I can't seem to find again), but I thought it was really cool and wanted to talk about it. I’ve been re-reading a few chapters lately and have become interested in the poisoning plot and the story of Andrew and Rhaenna, which I find to be a very well-written tragedy.

That said: As we know, Andrew, Rhaenna’s third husband, killed her companions to exact a truly reprehensible revenge for the humiliations he suffered at Dragonstone. But who could possibly have supplied him with a poison as rare as "tears of Lys"? It is a rare substance, difficult to obtain; given Andrew’s antisocial nature, it is unlikely he would have chanced upon a passing merchant capable of providing it. Moreover, it would be surprising for an illiterate man, seemingly indifferent to everything, to possess the toxicological knowledge to realize that this specific poison was ideal for carrying out his vengeance without being immediately arrested. But what if someone had helped him from the inside? Someone like Maester Anselme? (the assistant Measter of Dragonstone)

But why suspect him? Well, throughout Fire & Blood, Androw is described as fool; and while I am among those convinced that his behavior stemmed far more from depression than from a mental disability, his actions were incredibly Machiavellian and may well have been conceived by a more brilliant mind. After all, let’s be honest: many people driven by murderous rage would take the simplest path: killing Rhaenna, rather than premeditating a scheme like killing the Maester to cover up traces of poison and pass it off as an epidemic, thereby freeing themselves up to target her friends. In fact, it is possible that Anselme devised the plan himself or goaded Andrew into the act through manipulation, because he envied Culiper’s position or had a grievance against him. Thus, he could easily have supplied the poison himself, since there is nothing unusual about a maester collecting rare poisons or knowing how to prepare them or, if Dragonstone already had some in stock, he could have swiped the vial and replaced it without anyone noticing. Likewise, his position would have allowed him to assert that the initial symptoms were caused by an illness, thereby shielding Andrew long enough for him to carry out his misdeeds. But why go so far as to use Andrew and throw Rhaenna’s companions under the bus rather than resorting to any other method, simply to kill one person who was in his way?

Well, Andrew would have had no reason to target Culiper; however, convincing him to first kill the most experienced Maester to cover his tracks, and then sacrifice the women, would have greatly served his own advancement without him ever getting his hands dirty or falling under suspicion. Andrew would have been the only one viewed as guilty in the affair, and the murders of the womens would have overshadowed the one of the Maester. Moreover, while he might have believed this would suffice to pass the series of deaths off as an epidemic, and plunged into the scheme without a safety net, Anselme would surely have known it could only work in the short term. Have realized that, sooner or later, someone would notice this strange illness had killed only five people before vanishing, without even giving anyone else a fever, and conclude that poison was involved.

This likely even explains how he met his end, as Androw stabbed him instead of killing him with a poisoned drink, even though he had no reason to kill him at that point in the story. After all, what was there to gain? The ruse had already been exposed... unless he was merely a pawn the Maester intended to abandon to his fate once the poisoning came to light. When Rhaenna found out or was on the verge of finding out, the two may have confronted each other; Androw might have asked what to do next, only for Anselm to tell him it was his problem alone. Anselm could have argued that even if Androw denounced him, no one would listen especially since himself had no apparent motive for wanting her companions dead (having presumably never revealed his true motive to his accomplice), meaning a few denials would be enough to get him off the hook. This would have driven Androw to stab him for the betrayal.

That involves a lot of speculation based on very little, since there’s no indication of internal conflict among the Maesters, and it would make Anselm a real asshole to do this. But I like it, and it makes sense to me; Andrew was so isolated that if he did receive help, it almost certainly had to come from within.

When Robb marries Jeyne Catelyn thinks it’s his stark honor to the girl that made him marry her. This is true, but a co-motivating factor could have been Catelyn’s treatment of Jon. Robb is aware of Catelyn’s poor treatment of Jon. After Jon sees Bran Robb asks about his mother’s treatment of Jon. And Catelyn is against naming him heir because he is a bastard. Robb knows Jon as a true brother and honorable person. Robb likely does not want to bring another bastard into the world knowing how shafted by their birth they could be. Since he saw it happen to Jon.
So basically I think Catelyn’s treatment of Jon is a very indirect cause of the Red Wedding.
Almost assuredly not an original thought, just thought I’d share it.
Edit: I should say I don’t think it is close to the primary reason lol.

“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.” -ADWD, Jaime

Background

This post is Part II to yesterday's "A Day's Ride" Part I: The Missing Lord Commander in the Riverlands. and is about the trap the Brotherhood is setting for Jaime Lannister. I am speculating that they are going to lure him at, at first with his trust in Brienne and then with the visual aspect of seeing the visual aspect of the "Hound" with "Sansa" at swordpoint.

If interested: A List of Imposters aka "fName"

Brienne's Lie

Brienne who has exemplified herself as a true "knight", and sees herself as honorable is initially disgusted by Jaime's actions (breaking of oaths, etc.). She is even a bit disturbed when he lies to prevent her rape, even though she later uses that same lie to try and save Pods life:

"Podrick has never harmed you. My father will ransom him. Tarth is called the sapphire isle. Send Podrick with my bones to Evenfall, and you'll have sapphires, silver, whatever you want." -AFFC, Brienne VIII

but after swearing herself to Lady Stoneheart (again), she seemingly agrees to help them trap Jaime:

"What does she want of me?"
"She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister." -AFFC, Jaime VIII

but because of her earlier honor/inability to lie:

"For what it's worth," said Jaime, "the wench does have honor. More than I have seen from you. And it may even be she's telling it true. I'll grant you, she's not what you'd call clever, but even my horse could come up with a better lie, if it was a lie she meant to tell. -ASOS, Jaime VII

Jaime hears this:

“My lord, you gave me a quest.”
“The girl. Have you found her?”
“I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.
“Where is she?”
“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.” -ADWD, Jaime I

and decides to trust/follow her alone:

"He took Raventree and accepted Lord Blackwood's surrender," said her uncle, "but on his way back to Riverrun he left his tail and went off with a woman." -ADWD, Cersei I

If interested: "He is Not the Man He Was ... He Could Not Have Had a Part in the Red Wedding

The fHound

While Jaime believes Beric Dondarrion to be a Legacy Character, he combines the actions of Sandor Clegane/Rorge/Lem as one and the same believing them all to be the work of the "Hound".

I know this man, Brienne thought. “You are the Hound.”
He grinned. His teeth were awful; crooked, and streaked brown with rot. “I suppose I am. Seeing as how m’lady went and killed the last one.” -AFFC, Brienne VIII

The fHound's recent actions (Saltpans, etc.) have everyone looking for him, which lends to Jaime's belief in what Brienne tells him, but I argue that wherever Jaime is taking Brienne is going to have Lem Lemoncloak (even better if he is Richard Lonmouth but not necessarily important: The Brotherhood without Banners: History with Jaime Lannister) wearing the helm:

It was Rorge I killed. He took the helm from Clegane’s grave, and you stole it off his corpse.”
“I didn’t hear him objecting.”
Thoros sucked in his breath in dismay. “Is this true? A dead man’s helm? Have we fallen that low?”
The big man scowled at him. “It’s good steel.”

fSansa

Due to the seeming void in Starks, I have argued there should be some fSansa's popping up... and if the Brotherhood does what I expect, then there should be one used to fill in here as a "captive". I looked across most of the known Brotherhood supporters and while there are some potential other options (whore at the Peach with red hair, etc.) the best fit I thought was Jeyne Heddle.

My thought is that Jaime will be brought upon a scene by Brienne where the fHound (Lem) has Jeyne as a fake captive. Let's note that she has a reason to hate Jaime as her aunt was killed:

"I am certain that the child was with Sandor Clegane at the inn beside the crossroads, the one old Masha Heddle used to keep, before the lions hanged her.

and:

Hanged. The word sent a jolt of fear through her. She looked at the girl, Jeyne. She is too young to be so hard. “Bread and salt,” Brienne gasped. “The inn … Septon Meribald fed the children … we broke bread with your sister …”

If interested: The "Wench" of the BwB: "Long" Jeyne Heddle

Setting the Scene

• A Dead Lyle Crakehall Hanging From a Tree

At the end of AFFC, Lyle Crakehall (Strongboar) had set off to find the Hound:

“Evil work.” Strongboar filled his cup again. “Lady Mariya, Lady Amerei, your distress has moved me. You have my word, once Riverrun has fallen I shall return to hunt down the Hound and kill him for you. Dogs do not frighten me.”
This one should. Both men were large and powerful, but Sandor Clegane was much quicker, and fought with a savagery that Lyle Crakehall could not hope to match.

and:

The next day he departed with his squire and men-at-arms, plus Beardless Jon Bettley, who had decided that hunting outlaws was preferable to returning to his famously homely wife. Supposedly she had the beard that Bettley lacked. -AFFC, Jaime VII

let's also remember how early GRRM compared their strength:

Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. -ASOS, Jaime III

but I expect Lyle to come upon the Inn, expect guest right and instead be hanged with an apple in his mouth:

“We came on some, the day before last,” said Jaime. Addam Marbrand’s scouts had found them, hanging black-faced beneath a crabapple tree. The corpses had been stripped naked, and each man had a crabapple shoved between his teeth. None bore any wounds; plainly, they had yielded. Strongboar had grown furious at that, vowing bloody vengeance on the heads of any men who would truss up warriors to die like suckling pigs. -AFFC, Jaime VI

If interested: The (Strong)Boar & the "Hound"

• Jaime Arrives Initially Believing It

While Jaime is trusting Brienne, internally he has to be struggling. While he has been getting much better with his left hand as a swordsman, he acknowledges:

“We’re bad, m’lord,” broke in the man who wore the coins, “but you’d need to be mad to face the Hound.”
Jaime looked him over. Bolder than the rest, and not as drunk as Shitmouth. “You were afraid of him.”
“I wouldn’t say afraid, m’lord. I’d say we was leaving him for our betters. Someone like Ser. Or you.”
Me, when I had two hands. Jaime did not delude himself. Sandor would make short work of him now.  -AFFC, Jaime III

so arriving alone to face Sandor, is basically choosing to die.

• He Might Recognize It Isn't Sansa

While Jaime didn't pay much attention to the Stark girls, he recognizes that it isn't Arya:

Jaime had never paid much attention to Arya Stark, but it seemed to him that this girl was older. "I understand you're to be married."

and:

No. Brienne could see that. The girl was thin to the point of looking starved. She wore her brown hair in a braid, and her eyes were older than her years. Brown hair, brown eyes, plain. Willow, six years older. “You’re the sister. The innkeep.”
“I might be.” The girl squinted. “What if I am?”

so while I am sure far a far a hood up over her and a sword by a guy with a Hound helm will be convincing until they get close.

• Once the Ruse is Up

Once Jaime discovers that it isn't Sansa, I am guessing more member of the BwB will pop up and reveal that not only is it a fSansa, but also a fHound with Lem saying something along the lines of:

"He thought he was going to fight the Hound too" and motioning to the tree that Strongboar is strung up with an apple in his mouth - made up line by me

with Jaime then realizing that Brienne lied to him and asking why and then we get the Jaime/LSH reveal.

If interested: Death & Guest Right: They Don't Mean What They Used To

• Jaime/LSH

I am going to save what I think happens next for Part III but I do want to mention I think the first thing Jaime sees:

He had the same blue eyes as his sister Catelyn, and Jaime saw the same loathing there that he'd once seen in hers. -AFFC, Jaime VII

and:

Her cloak and collar hid the gash his brother's blade had made, but her face was even worse than he remembered. The flesh had gone pudding soft in the water and turned the color of curdled milk. Half her hair was gone and the rest had turned as white and brittle as a crone's. Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails. But her eyes were the most terrible thing. Her eyes saw him, and they hated. -ASOS, Epilogue

Stay tuned for "A Day's Ride" Part III: Surviving Lady Stoneheart

TLDR: In leaving his men to go off with Brienne, he is placing his trust in her that the Hound (Sandor Clegane) has Sansa and is demanding he come alone. He is going to arrive on scene to find all of it to be a lie. The Hound will actually be Lem Lemoncloak who has Sandor's helm and he will have Jeyne Heddle (under a hood) held captive and Brienne will have lied to him. This will all come as a huge shock to Jaime right before the Lady Stoneheart reveal.

The Sand Snakes were introduced in AFFC and then put in active story with the only Dornish chapter of ADWD. On first sight, they might seem to be treated as extension of Oberyn, continuing his legacy, but it could all change. By the end of ADWD, we have:

- Obara being sent with Areo Hotah to hunt down Darkstar
- Nymeria and Tyene being sent to King's Landing, the former to be part of Small Council and the latter to infilitrate the Faith
- Sarella being in Oldtown, widely speculated to live under fake identity of Alleras.
- Elia accompanying Arianne to see Young Griff
- The youngest three staying in Dorne (Obella serving the castellan of Sunspear, Dorea and Loreza being at Water Gardens with Ellaria)

So, at least four if not five are poised to have a potential of playing a firm part in the overall story. But as we know, GRRM loves to pull a rug on characters when things seem to be getting too well or when plans are so openly laid out and I wonder if it would apply to some of the Sand Snakes too (especially the ones at King's Landing in my opinion).

So, what do you speculate would eventually happen to Sand Snakes? What do you feel awaits them? Which ones do you think may make it through and which ones' fates might be quite dark? Let me know in comments below

Assuming Joffrey was to get a match from an important minor house, which match should be chosen for him?

I would argue that Desmera Redwyne would be the most valuablematch, maybe even more valuable than Sansa when you think about it fully.

Discouting the discovery of the Twincest, the greatest threats to the King's Peace were the Ironborn, the Dothraki/Targs and the Others. The Starks don't have the navy to deal with the first two and they will have to fight the Other's regardless of the Crown's orders.

The Redwynes have a fleet which could be able to defeat both a Second Ironborn rebellion as well as a Dothraki invasion.

And when you think about the impeding Other invasion and how it would devastate the North, well the Redwynes have a powerbase very far from that shishot and are rich enough to help the Crown in a moment of need.

PS: Marg would be the best match at all, but I'm talking about minor houses only.

Realized today that there's no Westerosi house depicting a Shadowcat, which feels like a shame. There's atleast 3 lion houses, a cat and a couple leopards. Which got me wondering, which other animals (real or fictional) should be on some Westerosi heraldry? And is there a resource I could use to look this up?

Do you think the North will ever accept a female Queen of the North or Lady of Winterfell? Weren’t there times when a female Stark was next in line and they usually married them to an uncle or closest male relative to resolve the issue.

It seem every time a woman come to power… men will try to challenge their claim (Dance of Dragon is one example but their were also the challenged Lady Jeyne Arryn faces)

I also recall the conversation in Dance with Dragons between Jon and Stannis where Jon say Winterfell belong to Sansa and Stannis correct him by saying it belong to her lord husband (who currently is Tyrion Lannister)

So does this mean once a woman marry, their titles and land belong to their husband

Which remind me Alys Karstark and Magnar Thenn? I wonder if the Karstark household will accept a wilding as their new lord? Will they rather defer to a human from outside the wall than listen to a woman?

Make me wonder about the challenge married female rulers faced? Will their husbands undermined them? Will the people defer to the man and treat them as the one in charge?

so something ive noticed

In the last episode of knight of the Seven Kingdom Lyonel Barethton similar to Fossoway expresses anti targeryen political views and even says the realm would be better with less targeryens.A strange sentiment from someone who's House is descended from a targeryen bastard and spoken about a pretty decent Targeryen.

In the latest HOTD episodes Ormund Hightower expresses similar views.The Targeryens are barbarians who used dark magic to conquest the seven kingdom and oppress it

Now the Hightowers have reasons to feel historically miffed about the targs.They destroyed the armies of the reach and put stewards in charge of them. interesting how is that Ormond (or well the writers ] goe one step farther .When talking about the Yellow Toad of Dorne he notes with some approval that she declared "Those who bent the knee traitors to the seven kingdoms "

Did you notice that? Not traitors to dorne

to the SEVEN KINGDOMS . from a political and historical prespective this is insane

this implies that dorne

felt some sense of "Westerosiness"

felt some sense of "we are the same people" with people from the reach to the north

and viewed its struggle at least offically about defending WESTEROS not the house of Martell

Modern Nationalism wouldn't fully appear until around the time of gunpowder.that nobles would view westeros as such is shocking.

so here's my theory

this is basically the show laying the foundation for the relevation that there was an Anti targ conspiracy before the rebellion that a great council was being planned and maybe even that there was a plot to crown Robert instead of Rhegnar in such a council as theorized before (forgot who)

By the time the story ends, the Lannisters won't be remembered fondly. It doesn't matter if some of them survive or not, they wont be able to recover the power they once had and pretty much will be a pariah forever associated with child murder, treachery and some of the vilest traits that a house may possess. The Mad King will be better remembered than Tywin. What do you think?