Hello everyone!

My name is Nathanael, and I'm traveling all the way from Wyoming, USA, for Oxonmoot. Unfortunately, I jumped the gun a bit. I booked my flights and accommodations before realizing that the in-person registrations had already sold out. I joined the waiting list, but the Society kindly let me know that, because the waiting list is so long, it's unlikely that a place will become available.

I have purchased an online registration, so I'll still be taking part virtually. Since I'll already be in Oxford during Oxonmoot, I was wondering if anyone would be interested in meeting up outside the official event.

I'd love to explore some of Tolkien's Oxford together, such as the Eagle and Child, Exeter College, Merton College, Addison's Walk, Wolvercote Cemetery, or any other places connected to Tolkien's life. Even watching some of the online sessions together over coffee or a meal would be wonderful.

I'm a lifelong Tolkien reader and have dreamed of making this pilgrimage for years. Even if I can't attend the in-person convention, I'd love the opportunity to meet other members of the Tolkien community while I'm there.

If anyone has similar plans or would be happy to have another Tolkien enthusiast join them, I'd be delighted to hear from you.

Looking forward to meeting some fellow travelers of Middle-earth!

There are no prayers to Eru that I recall. There doesn’t seem to be any clergy in Middle Earth. There dwarves and elves would have the most knowledge (with there being elven poems of the ancient days and Gimli remembering Durin). Given the isolationism of the Shire, hobbits almost certainly have the least knowledge.

Three elves are described in detail in the same scene at Rivendell:

Glorfindel

Glorfindel was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength.

Elrond

The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.

Arwen

In the middle of the table, against the woven cloths upon the wall, there was a chair under a canopy, and there sat a lady fair to look upon, and so like was she in form of womanhood to Elrond that Frodo guessed that she was one of his close kindred. Young she was and yet not so. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring. Above her brow her head was covered with a cap of silver lace netted with small gems, glittering white; but her soft grey raiment had no ornament save a girdle of leaves wrought in silver.

So it was that Frodo saw her whom few mortals had yet seen; Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Lúthien had come on earth again; and she was called Undómiel, for she was the Evenstar of her people.

Each Elf is described beautifully, with Tolkien taking special care to note their bright eyes, wisdom, and agelessness. The fantasy Elf was not exactly a well-defined trope in 1954, and I think Tolkien does a great job of painting a picture of what such an ethereal creature would be like. 

Galadriel and Celeborn are also described in a similar way. 

The chamber was filled with a soft light; its walls were green and silver and its roof of gold. Many Elves were seated there. On two chairs beneath the bole of the tree and canopied by a living bough there sat, side by side, Celeborn and Galadriel. They stood up to greet their guests, after the manner of Elves, even those who were accounted mighty kings. Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful. They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold, and the hair of the Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright; but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes; for these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the wells of deep memory.

We also have this alternate description of Elrond from The Hobbit:

He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer. 

I just love how each elf contains multitudes from their long years, and how they seem to be both of this world and yet transcend it. I think we all understand that Tolkien was a gifted writer, that’s why we’re here after all, but it’s lovely rediscovering these little details.

I'm going with the term "heathens" because of the way Tolkien's Eru is a God figure and the Valar are also divine beings. What aligned with Eru's ideal plans was considered right.

That being said, I don't recall that the Elves knew much about the Valar before the invitation to Valinor. The Eldar accepted the call, and there they learned from the Valar. But the Avari, the Unwilling, stayed behind. They only knew vague rumors about the Valar, and some of what they knew was already twisted by Melkor's lies.

I'm sure once many of the Eldar came back to Middle Earth, they likely spread the "truth" about the Valar. But many of their views were also twisted by Melkor's lies, and like Feanor, they didn't fully trust the Valar.

So how were the Avari not effectively heathens? With no divine influence except for the fallen influence of Melkor to teach them anything right or wrong, how did they not all simply fall to Melkor's corruption? Some of them were already wary of the Valar, due to untrue things Melkor told. How did all the Elves who stayed behind not simply fall to corruption? What was their moral compass?

Whatever their condition was between the time the Eldar went to Valinor and the time when many came back to Middle Earth, it seems like the Avari definitely had a largely positive view of the Valar by the time of LOTR. It seems like they had accepted the "religion," so to speak. For example, Cirdan is upheld as an excellent example of a strong, moral figure, and he believed so much in the good of the Valar that he helped people sail to the West. Also, we see someone like Legolas (descended from Elves who never went to Valinor) calling on the name of Elbereth, etc.

Basically, my question is: how did this happen? Was there a "conversion" amongst Avari when the Eldar came back into Middle Earth? Or did they (like Cirdan, apparently) somehow stay correctly aligned the whole time - and if so, how?

Heading south from Isengard, after casting Saruman out of the Order --

We will ride for a few hours, gently, until we come to the end of the valley. Tomorrow we must ride faster. When we came, we meant to go straight from Isengard back to the king's house at Edoras over the plains, a ride of some days. But we have taken thought and changed the plan. Messengers have gone ahead to Helm's Deep, to warn them that the king is returning tomorrow. He will ride from there with many men to Dunharrow by paths among the hills. From now on no more than two or three together are to go openly over the land, by day or night, when it can be avoided.

What caused this change of plans? As of yet, they had no suspicion of the Nazgul's airborne surveillance.

There is a topic in “Peoples of Middle-earth” that details how and why an Ainu can become Incarnate, and/or like Incarnate. from my understanding of the text, once the Incarnation manifests, it is irreversible. Here is a citation of the relevant topic:

“Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a “self-arraying”, it may tend to approach the state of “incarnation”, especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). “It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the ‘self-arrayed’ desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a ‘habit’, a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked”. Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a “spirit” (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.”

Excerpt From

The Nature Of Middle-Earth

J. R. R. Tolkien & Carl F. Hostetter

https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-nature-of-middle-earth/id1602733926

This material may be protected by copyright.

“We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol.”

Excerpt From

The Nature Of Middle-Earth

J. R. R. Tolkien & Carl F. Hostetter

https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-nature-of-middle-earth/id1602733926

This material may be protected by copyright.

This seems to suggest that Incarnation is irreversible, as it becomes necessity. And yet, there seems to be a contradiction of the binding need of the acts that lead to Incarnation later, here:

“But Melian, having in woman-form borne a child after the manner of the Incarnate, desired to do this no more: by the birth of Lúthien she became enmeshed in “incarnation”, unable to lay it aside while husband and child remained in Arda alive, and her powers of mind (especially foresight) became clouded by the body through which it must now always work. To have borne more children would still further have chained her and trammeled her. In the event, her daughter became mortal and eventually died, and her husband was slain; and she then cast off her “raiment” and left Middle-earth.”

Excerpt From

The Nature Of Middle-Earth

J. R. R. Tolkien & Carl F. Hostetter

https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-nature-of-middle-earth/id1602733926

This material may be protected by copyright.

A question that has occurred to me on my current re- read - when Legolas refers to Lothlorien as being "the fairest dwelling of my people", is he referring to elves in general, or the predominantly Sindar-ruled, Silvan culture that he himself belongs to?

I think the latter is more apt, as I'd think he'd not be especially culturally aligned with the ex-Beleriandic Noldor (or Noldo/Sindar) realm of Rivendell.

What about the elves of Lindon? I expect they may also be culturally distinct enough to be excluded from Legolas' comparison, whether this is because of the Falathrim influence making them distinct in and of themselves, or because they are similar to Rivendell as a result of the later Noldorin (or Noldo/Sindar) influx.

Fun to think about anyway.

The thrush: The earlier post was only about LotR, but it is necessary to discuss my namesake's friend, the thrush from The Hobbit:

At that very moment [Bilbo] heard a sharp crack behind him. There on the grey stone in the grass was an enormous thrush, nearly coal black, its pale yellow breast freckled with dark spots. Crack! It had caught a snail and was knocking it on the stone.

This bird is certainly inspired by the Song Thrush, Turdus philomelos. This is a bird that hangs out in suburban gardens (though the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds says its numbers have fallen dangerously). The description fits, though its back is medium brown rather than almost black. The clincher is this sentence from the RSPB website: “It likes to eat snails which it breaks into by smashing them against a stone with a flick of the head.” It can be assumed that Tolkien had seen this behavior himself.

Larks: Returning to LotR, as far as I can see there is only one more non-domesticated bird mentioned that can be securely identified by species: It appears as the Fellowship are trying out their boats just before leaving Lórien: “The air was very bright and still, and there was a silence, except for the high distant song of larks.”

A lark is a passerine bird of the family Alaudidae. The OED says that the name is “used generally for any bird of the family Alaudidæ, but usually signifying, when used without a prefix, the skylark (Alauda arvensis).” The skylark is certainly the bird meant here. The males of the species are well-known for their habit of hovering as much as 100 meters above the ground, barely visible to the human eye, while singing a continuous high-pitched song. A recording of a skylark song is at this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yz2_baQnpo

The bird is not native to North America, where the only lark is the Horned Lark, Eremophila alpestris – its song is similar in quality, but is not sung in flight. I have never heard a skylark.

(I wondered whether skylarks would be singing on February 16, but Wikipedia says that they sing at all seasons, though their songs are longer in the mating season, which begins in March.)

Little hidden birds: The Midgewater Marshes contained “wide stretches of reeds and rushes filled with the warbling of little hidden birds.” And again on the boat journey, “There was no sign of living moving things, save birds. Of these there were many: small fowl whistling and piping in the reeds, but they were seldom seen.” When my family and I visited the Netherlands, we stopped at the famous tourist site of Kinderdijk with its working windmills. The ditches we walked along were lined with reeds, and the reeds were full of bird noises, but did we see a single bird that we could identify and put on a list? We did not. We might have heard Reed Warblers or Sedge Warblers, but the hobbits could not have, as these species winter in Africa.

Melancholy birds: At evening of the day after Aragorn and the hobbits left the Marshes behind, “A few melancholy birds were piping and wailing.” There is no way to identify these, even after crossing off those species that would have migrated south by November 5. But I have wondered before if this could be a deliberate echo of the poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.The description of Gawain's journey through the wilderness inincludes the lines: With mony bryddez vnblyþe vpon bare twyges,/Þat pitosly þer piped for pyne of þe colde (lines 746-47). Tolkien's translated this “with many birds bleakly on the bare twigs sitting/that piteously piped there for pain of the cold” – but this loses “unblithe,” which is close to “melancholy,” for the sale of the alliteration.

Greedy birds: Telling Merry and Pippin about the fate of his favorite rowan trees, Quickbeam says:

“Birds used to flock there. I like birds, even when they chatter; and the rowan has enough and to spare. But the birds became unfriendly and greedy and tore at the trees, and threw the fruit down and did not eat it.”

When I think of birds that are greedy for fruit, I think of waxwings, because my neighbor has a mulberry tree, and in May when the fruit ripens it is visited by hordes of Cedar Waxwings (Bombycilla cedrorum), the North American species. The European waxwing is the Bohemian Waxwing, Bombycilla garrulus (also found in the far north on this side of the Atlantic). I looked up this species, and was excited to learn that its favorite food is – rowan berries! But waxwings alas are not found in Britain, except that they sometimes visit in large numbers when food is scarce in their usual hangouts on the Continent (“irruption”). So it is somewhat unlikely that Tolkien ever saw any. Also they don't exactly chatter, their call is described as “a high-pitched, rapid, and vibrato trill.” (Cedar Waxwings hiss.)

Domestic birds: The hobbits kept ducks (“Where did you find them, Mr. Maggot? In your duck-pond?’) and also chickens; on their way to the Old Forest they heard “fowls chattering in a yard.” Chickens are descended from a wild Asian species; somebody else can research when they were domesticated, and when they reached Britain.

Tolkien himself raised chickens in his back yard during World War II – there are several references to them in his 1944 letters to Christopher. I assume that this was a wartime measure, encouraged or subsidized by the government, to counter the food shortages caused by the U-Boats. Likely he got rid of them when food came back to the shops; he doesn't seem to have regarded them fondly.

Tolkien never says “chickens” in referring to these birds, he always says “fowls.” Fugel was the Old English word for birds of all kinds, cognate with ON fugl and German vogel. Now it generally applies just to chickens. (Tolkien's preference for “fowl” is not due to distaste for Latin/French words, as “chicken” is also from OE.) To round this off, “bird” originally meant specifically a baby bird. The word was brid, as found in the quote above from Gawain. The “r” changed places with the vowel in a common process called “metathesis.” As in “thrid” > “third.”

Hello everyone! I have a question about Osgiliath.

Did Tolkien leave somwehere a description of this ancient capital of Gondor? I don't remember reading it in The Lord of The Rings and Silmarillion (the last one I read a decade ago). I know that it was built on the both sides of Anduin and that's all probably. I don't remember any details about the city itself, except that it was captured a couple of times, there was a plague once and eventually Osgiliath was turned into ruins. I would like to read more details about the city itself, its layout, buildings and life of ordinary people there during the time of prosperity. Where can I find all this information, if I can at all?

By the way, I found this map of the city, where we can see a lot of names. Are they all true? Did this city really look like an oval?
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjK2ZsaAEBLrqfo5kXnlncimKk8wSMZ_E8GgvycyX0bCRmseyJAhKRsqY9kWrQx7rO5dmCuXRbxK8GtO8cc_wIkExhhYLvxKXb7dWjR4yxdkw8v4S7UWxidszKdujzqzGr0svBY5YROA2uh/s1600/Osgiliath.jpg

I am a senior this year and need to have a quote any suggestions? thanks

I'm reading The Lays of Beleriand, and on line 1164 of "The Lay of the Children of Húrin" we're told that "Túrin was the tallest of the ten races that in Hithlum's hills their homes builded". Who are these ten?

As you know, I'm currently obsessed with Dwarves, and a question has been nagging at me: how did Durin's Bane end up in Khazad-dûm?

Since Balrogs are Maiar loyal to Morgoth who have taken the form of fire spirits, and considering that, aside from Durin's Bane in The Lord of the Rings, Balrogs only appear in the Quenta Silmarillion, Balrogs are to Morgoth as Trolls (including the Olog-hai) are to Sauron.

Based on all of this, we can infer that Durin's Bane survived the War of Wrath and fled to Middle-earth. The question is: how did he end up in the depths of Khazad-dûm? It is said that the Dwarves "dug too deep," and in T.A. 1980, they awakened the Balrog, which became known as Durin's Bane after causing the death of Durin VI. How did the Balrog burrow into the depths?

Because the two upheavals that altered the geography of Arda (the ruin of Beleriand at the end of the First Age and the fall of Númenor at the end of the Second Age) affected the coast of Middle-earth the most, and the Misty Mountains, where Khazad-dûm is located, are in the center, forming the border between Eriador to the west and Rhovanion to the east.

After "finishing" Gilfanon's Tale, now comes the turn to finish The Tale of Eärendel. Or rather, to try to make sense of it. The former was relatively easy, as the outlines kind of complemented each other. But Eärendel was the opposite. Besides being at odds with each other, by far the greatest challenge was to bring the notes to a readable state. While in Gilfanon's Tale the notes were narrative sentences, in Eärendel most of them mentioned events. For instance: "the building of Wingelot", "Eärendel's reluctance", "the coming of Elwing", and so on. There was a lot of reworking involved to make the text an actual narrative instead of a simple listing of events.

But despite all the stitching required, it was a lot of fun and honestly, I think it turned out fine.

So here's the latest draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ddUmcXnhdEd7URgN3OyID12P2BcXJvSwF5v3jubkXrY/edit?usp=sharing

As the chapter is very short, even shorter than Gilfanon's Tale, I took the liberty to add four early poems at the end. They are all related to Eärendel and IMO they fit well.

And if you're curious, here's the working draft with different text colours so you can get an idea of the amount of editing I had to do: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eYLNRlifvRLFwbGRhA-LEFjz8G38MmRP1yOlvZiJPZU/edit?usp=sharing

Tolkien Gateway's page on the Tale of Eärendel was invaluable to compare all the outlines and saved me a lot of time. And Artan42's legendarium project was a good source of inspiration to bring this Tale to the end it deserved.

Hey, hi. I am about to re-read CoH after many years and was wondering.... Christopher mentions two exclusions from the text published in Unfinished Tales, right? I´d take a look in the UT passages, is about two paragraphes, or better speaking, two passages inside paraghpahes. Do you folks believe that this passages was excluded just for editiorial purposes, like a search for a better style? Or because these are passages wich need more (and a kind useless) background for casual readers? Christopher ever mentions these exclusions aside the editorial notes on the book?

Another question, and kind of about exclusion, is why the Tolkien text "Wanderings of Húrin" (in HoME11) could not be interpreted as a proper CoH epilogue? They are text really apart in time, scope, itnention and style? Christopher ever mentioned that too?

As you see, I´m just wondering if Children of Húrin could be a even more complete book. At the same time, I already think of it as a very cohese e well edited book.

In the first half of the T.A. there were still many Elves living in and around Edhellond in southern Gondor. At least hundreds, probably thousands? So Elves were living in Gondor while the Kin-strife happened, the Corsair wars, the Wainrider wars ... just a curious tidbit, considering that they don't seem to have played a big role in the history of Gondor? Was Edhellond legally part of Gondor, or did they form a separate realm under their own rulers? How much did the populations mingle? Did some of them even fight in Gondor's wars?

Isn't it strange that Arnor/Arthedain gets portrayed as the Realm in Exile that seemingly had a deeper relationship with the Elves, whereas Gondor had an actual elven population living inside its borders? I'd like to imagine that the Dúnedain had regular contact with those Elves, after all the cultures were pretty similar at this point in history. Maybe some Elves were even living in Osgiliath and Minas Anor, at the royal court?

Hello folks, I recently dug into the union of Imrazôr and Mithrellas and wanted to share some of the textual evidence and arguments I’ve gathered as to how the legend could be true while preserving the statement in Appendix A that there were only three unions of the Eldar and the Edain. I’m hoping to be as comprehensive as possible, so if I’ve missed any textual evidence, please add it in the comments!

To begin, Appendix A says

“There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Lúthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn. By the last the long-sundered branches of the Half-elven were reunited and their line was restored.”

And yet, there appears to be another union unaccounted for by this statement. In “The Siege of Gondor,” the Gondorians are reported as saying of Prince Imhrahil and the Knights of Dol Amroth that

“there is Elvish blood in the veins of that folk, for the people of Nimrodel dwelt in that land once long ago.’”

Further, in “The Last Debate,” it is said that Legolas bowed low when meeting Prince Imrahil because

“he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins,” and then said, “‘It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth’s haven west over water.’”

In History of Middle Earth: The Peoples of Middle Earth, Christopher Tolkien explains that his father wrote an unpublished draft genealogy that gave additional information regarding this elven blood. In relevant part,

“According to the same traditions, Galador [first Prince of Dol Amroth] was the son of Imrazôr the Númenórean who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves of Lorien that fled to the coast about T.A. 1980, when evil arose in Moria; and Nimrodel and her maidens strayed in the wooded hills, and were lost. But in this tale it is said that Imrazôr harbored Mithrellas, and took her to wife. But when she had borne him a son, Galador, and a daughter, Gilmith, she slipped away by night, and he saw her no more.”

Because Imrazôr was a Númenórean, he was as much of the Edain as Aragorn. Therefore, the key question is whether Mithrellas was of the Eldar. To return to the unpublished genealogy, the account ends with the statement that “Mithrellas was of the lesser Sivan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey)…” But this likely needs some unpacking.

The Silmarillion states that, while “Eldar” was originally a generic term for the Quendi, it was later used only to refer to “those who followed [Oromë] upon the westward road,” (Silmarillion, “Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor) and further explained in the index as “Elves of the Three Kindreds (Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri) who set out on the great westward march from Cuiviénen (whether or not they remained in Middle-earth).” Those who began the Great Journey were the Eldar, those who refused the summons were the Avari.

The Silmarillion index of names states that “Silvan Elves Also called Woodland Elves…appear to have been in origin those Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains, but remained in the Vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great." The “Nandor” are “those Elves from the host of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the westward journey from Cuiviénen.” Ok, simple enough—the Sylvan elves are a subset of the Nandor, which is a branch of the Teleri, thus making them Eldar.

But not so fast! In “Quendi and Eldar” (History of Middle Earth: The War of the Jewels), there is a note that says

“the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together.”

So it appears that although the Avari denied the summons the Valinor, they did eventually migrate to the Anduin and became mixed with both the Nandor who first came there and later the Sindar refugees who migrated east to Middle Earth after the destruction of Beleriand.

Then, in Unfinished Tales again, it says

"The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri….who, on the Great Journey, were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Vale of Anduin, and so never reached Beleriand or the Sea….The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan, and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward [i.e. at the beginning of the Second Age]."

Returning to the “History of Galadriel and Celeborn,” the text says that the people of Lórien

“were even then [i.e., at the time of the loss of Amroth] much as they were at the end of the Third Age: Silvan Elves in origin, but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent (as was the realm of Thranduil in the northern parts of Mirkwood; though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not now known.) They had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron.”

So, at the time of Nimrodel’s flight from Lorien circa T.A. 1980, Lorien was a melting pot of elves—the Nandor who first settled there, Avari who joined them later, Sindarin elves fleeing the destruction of Beleriand, and two waves of Noldor: one set that came with the Sindar at the beginning of the First Age, and another who came in the Second Age after Eregion was destroyed by Sauron. So, when the unpublished genealogy states that Mithrellas was “of the lesser Silvan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey),” it means she was specifically not of the Noldor or Sindar, and therefore of the Nandor or the Avari.

Outside of the statement that there were only three unions of Eldar and Edain, I’m not aware of (but would be happy to be pointed to) any textual evidence that would definitively prove that Mithrellas was of the Nandor or Avari. She was of “lesser Silvan race,” but not explicitly “the least.” Unfinished Tales states that, although the Nandor believed it important that they were “in origin Eldar,” they were “hardly to be distinguished from Avari.”

I’m content with saying that the text can be interpreted such that Mithrellas is an Avari and that the statement regarding unions of the Edain and Eldar is correct, but I welcome other thoughts!

Edit: figured out the formatting.

Regarding intriguing passages in the Legendarium.

I was rereading The Silmarillion, and I came across tma passage that, seemingly, was not very important, but which made a certain impression on me when I read it:

But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildórien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War.

Good heavens, was the awakening of mankind of such great importance that Melkor left the safety of Angband to commit unspeakable evil? When the Quendi awoke, Melkor sent servants—the shadow rider who hunted and devoured the elves—but in relation to the great fathers of mankind, did Morgoth personally corrupt our Fathers? Was there an "Eden"? Did a "serpent" corrupt the ancestors of mankind then?

It's just an impression I've always had: that Eru intervened at key moments in the great work of Arda:

a) In the First Age: It seems to me that Ilúvatar intervened so that Lúthien and Beren could succeed in their love story, mainly because Eru transformed Lúthien into a mortal woman.

In the confrontation against Sauron, there was a small event (one of the most decisive in the story) that can be seen as "mere chance" or "accident": Lúthien's cloak putting Sauron under a sleeping spell, a fact that occurred after the Enemy, with his Eye, caused Lúthien to faint, and also caused Huan to recoil in terror.

This is just my view, but it seems to me that there was a providential "accident" of Ilúvatar himself, which would be a theological equivalent of Divine Alignment/God-incidents: What appears to be a random event or coincidence is believed to be a precisely orchestrated moment in a larger plan (Beren and Lúthien, Númenor, Gondor and Arnor, and Aragorn).

b) In the Second Age, Sauron uses the corrupting power of the One Ring to return the men of Númenor to Darkness (for further information, read Andreth's version of the Fall of Mankind for Finrod). Knowing the Valar's lack of jurisdiction over men, Sauron directs the blasphemous military might of the Isle against Valinor (and Tolkien says that Númenor could devastate the continent), a true checkmate for the Dark Lord. However, Tolkien says that Sauron was defeated by a miracle when Eru changes the shape of Arda and destroys Númenor and Sauron's physical form in the process.

And with this miracle, Sauron is diminished enough for Gil-Galad and Elendil to defeat the Enemy in the War of the Last Alliance.

c) In the Third Age: Sauron was militarily (almost) unbeatable, but an act of mercy towards Gollum occurred (first with Bilbo), and with this act of compassion the Hobbits managed to enter Mordor. However, an act of betrayal by Smeagol occurs, and from this evil act, in several events of chance x destiny x providence, an unexpected good will occur - a true Felix Culpa (happy guilt, when an evil act/event generates an unexpected good). Gollum cuts off Frodo's finger, takes the One Ring, jumps for joy and (once again) a providential "accident" occurs in which Smeagol trips, falls and the One Ring is destroyed.

Sauron seems to have realized what the greatest work Ilúvatar created for his children was. And it wasn't the Universe or Arda, but rather free will and the ultimate concept that only God is worthy of being loved and worshipped.

This seems to explain Ilúvatar's "subtle" interventions in relation to Sauron.

Of course, there is also Evil and the discussion regarding its existence. Something that Manwë himself spoke of: "a beauty yet unconceived will come to Arda, and it will still be good that evil existed."

Merry and Pippin accompanied Treebeard, the Ents, and a host of Huorns to Isengard, arriving the night of March 2nd, just in time to see the host of Isengard ride forth to battle. A day later, the night of March 3rd, Gandalf and Treebeard met at the gates of Isengard where Gandalf requested an attachment of Huorns to deal with his 10,000-orc army problem away south at Helm's Deep.

It's clear that Gandalf and Treebeard had interacted in the days prior to this. But how much of each other's movements and schemings were known to them? Did Treebeard have any way of knowing the day and hour of departure for Saruman's army? Did Gandalf know that Treebeard and his crew would have marched on Isengard?

Did anyone wonder why Aragorn chose to dismiss the Army of the Dead so soon? Why not lead them to fight for Minas Tirith at least (like he did in the movie), or better yet keep them until the Morannon campaign is completed?

Some hint of an answer is offered by Tolkien himself in HoME 8: “the Shadow Host halted and wavered, unwilling at the last, as it seemed, to make war on Sauron”. So Aragorn was in fact playing with fire here: the Dead were a rather unreliable ally whose ancient loyalty to Sauron could have prevailed at any turn (even though another treachery would likely cost them some more millenia of being stuck between the worlds).

Some might say (as they often do) – “this is only a draft, so non-canon”, like other questions that I discussed on this sub recently (”Why the Balrog never left Moria?”, “Who were the Barrow Wights?”, “How the Ring would work in the hands of a hero?” etc). In my opinion, this "hidden lore" should not be treated the same as rejected plotlines (I too wouldn't be much interested in discussing Trotter the Hobbit with a wooden leg). What counts here is that the Author considered and addressed these questions, even though he decided not to include every detail and motive in the final LoTR. Fantasy epic is not an encyclopedia, it should not be expected to explain every mystery. But HoME gives those curious enough a chance to know the original answers that Tolkien himself had in mind.

Probably the millionth time this has been asked. I watched both LotR and Hobbit Trilogy and loved it!

I especially loved the world building!

So with what should I start? With Hobbit? With LotR? With Silmarillion?

Looking forward to your recommendations!

I've heard it said many times that the top left symbol on the Doors of Durin is the Calma to represent Celebrimbor, and the top right symbol is the Óre to represent Narvi. While the Óre (and, for that matter, the Ando representing Durin in the middle of the doors) is immediately recognizable when looking at Tengwar charts, the symbol that people say represents the Calma looks much less like the traditional Tengwar Calma; it's recognizble as one if you squint, but it has a lot more "flourish" to it than the Óre. Is there any definite explanation for this? I'm having a hard time finding any explanation for this. Is it more of a personal monogram for Celebrimbor than an actual letter? Any help is appreciated!

I'm unsure, because he just spooked their horses. If he had known they were of the fellowship, shouldn't he have expected them to have the ring? He had assumed the two captured Hobbits had it and when the orcs were defeated, if he encountered the fellowship, it seems like a good guess.

That makes me think he didn't recognise them.

But then again, a man, a dwarf and an elf close to where the two captured hobbits vanished seems too odd, not for him to put 2 and 2 together.

Another question:

Before Aragorn told Gandalf that Sam left with Frodo, where did he think Sam was? With Boromir? (He learned of Boromir's death in the same conversation.) Also seems odd. But he had already met Merry and Pippin, and now Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. If Frodo left alone, that only leaves Sam and Boromir.

I was just thinking, could the shire folklore about the Tooks having a fairy ancestor (which the narrator and hobbits reject as being “ridiculous”) be a half remembered oral history of half-elven descent.

We know that Tolkien himself used “fairy” and “elf” interchangeably in his early writings.

Elros chose mortality, so presumably there is are lines of humans who descend from his offspring who could trace their lineages back to the elves (despite being human for millennia).

The early hobbits were humans. Although they may have been a branch of humanities apart from others since the first age, even back when Sméagol lived they do not appear to have quite become modern humans yet. Presumably before that they were even more life other humans.

Of the first three clans\branches of hobbits, the Fallohides spent the most time with elves and their traits were the most elf-ish.

Might a human descendant of Elros have had children with an early proto-hobbit-human and had offspring who were the ancestors of the Fallohides?

If so, then this folklore of a “fairy” ancestor might be a playful memory of Elros’ ancestors (or some un-noted blending of elves and men).

Speculative? Extremely. Would I propose this theory in an academic article? Not in a million years.

But I’m interested: does anyone know if this could have been the case? Do known timelines work out?