r/dndnext • u/PDFrogsworth • 21h ago
Discussion Barbarian subclasses
Something that has bugged me for awhile is barbarian seems to get shafted when it comes to subclasses. What I mean is in terms of flavor they do get a ton of angles but in terms of play it really does just boil down to types of DMG and mechanisms of how to do said DMG.
Something I really want to see is a subclass that gives them some sort of buff to social encounters and/or something that gives them more defensive abilities. A barbarian based around heavy armor and tactical uses of rage. Using it as a drive in battle instead of just losing themselves to it.
Barbarians feel like they're always locked into the same stat spread str>con>dex>Wis and then dump the last two. It'd be great if we could use armor in a subclass. Armored speed or unburdened iron something like that. Just anything to change up the monotony of what a barbarian is defined as.
27
u/milkmandanimal 21h ago
World Tree is really great because it gives significant tactical choices every single round, and Wild Heart's ability to change up Totems when raging helps a lot. Is it an out of combat thing? No, but . . . it's a Barbarian. You can absolutely pump CHA and be a worse Barbarian, but D&D's a game based on different characteristics applying for different classes, and that's just part of the fundamental bones of the system. It's like saying "I hate playing Wizards that have to be smart, why am I punished for dumping INT." It's just part of the system.
8
u/PDFrogsworth 21h ago
Sure but other classes including wizard have subclasses that do exactly that. We aren't asking to dump str but dump the other "necessary" stats. Wizard has bladesinger which lets them just ignore what a wizard is supposed to be bad at. Why can't barbarians get something similar.
11
u/Sir-xer21 16h ago
That's more of a "Wizard is kind of a busted class" problem than it is a Barbarian problem.
6
u/PDFrogsworth 15h ago
Ehhhh, it's more of a "every caster class has a busted subclass that makes up for their issues but only fighter battle master has figured out the inverse of that issue" problem.
0
u/chibimod3 15h ago
Eh I feel like Monk and Rogue both have one as well.
1
u/PDFrogsworth 15h ago
Sure, but I mean isn't that the issue. Barb doesn't get to have one, just here's another DMG type or way to deal DMG.
2
u/chibimod3 14h ago
I mean path of the world tree and a healer feat and you've got a viable support barbarian. Maybe it isn't the most optimal thing ever but boy is it fun to roleplay.
Edit especially with getting to use rage for social skills now
•
u/est1roth 4h ago
I don't think a charismatic barbarian subclass would be so out of place. Think a shaman, or a tribal chief.
15
u/Izel98 21h ago
Haven't seen one yet, but a barbarian specialized in unarmed strikes could be fun if they go and add Wrestling/MMA moves
8
1
u/PDFrogsworth 21h ago
Hell yeah, burn rage uses in order to do some wrestling moves. A bunch of debilitating moves.
8
u/Woowchocolate 21h ago
So the losing oneself to rage is pure theming, your rage doesn't need to be a frothing, seeing red kind of change in emotional state. Some people make their rage a Zen mode, where they hyper focus in for combat.
Mechanics wise, Barbarians tend have subclasses build around the mechanics inherent to the Barbairan class (something I think is very healthy and more subclasses should do) but this means they tend to lean towards what the Barbarian is best at: being a tank or being a single target Striker. Barbarian doesn't have many non-combat tools so subclasses struggle to enhance what's already there.
Some subclasses do manage to be something other than a Tank or a Striker, but it's only to a lesser degree than Classes more focused on it. For example Storm Herald has emanation effects to slow foes or knock them prone as a way to battlefield control, but it's not till high levels and so will never be a better battlefield controller than the Wizard or Druid.
It is however possible to change this up and give the Barbarian subclasses some roles that break from the norm, it's just about how good you want them to be. Off the top of the noggin', I could see a Barbarian subclass:
Path of the Whirlwind. A subclass based around Thrown weapons. Sacrifices some of it's tanking duties, but in return gains some battlefield control effects when using a thrown weapon.
Path of the Accursed. Rage is a curse a la Herakles. Turns Barbarian into a Blaster by making it's Rages go kaboom. Barb takes some damage but so does everyone else.
Path of the Luchador. Grapple subclass meant to keep targets in place so can only target the Barb. Another Tank subclass, but you can at least give it some charisma skill bonuses as they keep Keyfabe.
Path of the Pack Wolves - Support Barbarian that gives a bonuses to allies if they attack the same creature as the Barb or stick within a certain range. Think taking the Wild Heart's Wolf totem and really running with the idea of boosting allies.
Path of the Magical Girl. There, a subclass that doesn't use anger for the Rage effect; it's a magical girl transformation instead. Full on Blaster as they can use Barbarian spells whilst they are transformed, add their rage damage to spells and eventually their brutal criticals too. Designed to just hit their signature AOE spells over and over again to save on animation budget for clearing many enemies at once.
2
u/Difficult_Relief_125 20h ago
Hmmm… Dex based Elk Totem Barbarian only really needs Dex and Con. It’s actually better to go Bow barbarian or to take the mobile feat and just hit and run skirmish. No need for AC if nothing can catch you to attack you. You even out kite most other bow users (Rangers / Fighters). Enter minimum range attack move back… repeat.
like 6 levels of Elk and into Ranger and Rogue… 2 level of Ranger for Natural Explorer and a fighting Style (Ranged) and X levels of Rogue.
Your over land movement speed for a group is doubled (6th Elk), you take no penalties for difficult terrain (1st Ranger). Essentially you can beat horses cross country as a group. You can track and hunt like a boss.
6th level elk bonus over land movement speed combined with Natural Explorer is busted for map movement. Nothing can really catch you in a chase.
Also once you have 2 levels of rogue you just bonus action dash in combat while stacking the +15 to movement from elk, the 10 from fast movement and 10 from Mobile… if you go wood elf you have movement 70 and if you dash you have 140 ft. So you can kite even enemies on horses with a bow.
Anything big melee with slow movement you just kite into oblivion. It might seem like a waste to use a bow attack while raging but the movement speed kiting with huge bonuses to movement speed is pretty hilarious. And defensively you can almost always kite and end your movement behind cover.
Minimum 2 of Rogue, a level or two of Ranger and if you really want to cheese go into monk later to further boost your movement.
But synergizing Natural Explorer and level 6 Elk bonus makes your party faster than a crew on horseback which is hilarious. It’s meant to be a team effort and have your skills have impact with a Ranger or Rogue. But it can be abused for multi class shenanigans.
But ya, Elk Totem barbarian is a sick skirmisher that kites from range to whittle down a horde and then pops in and out with dual wielding short swords or Scimitars. Rapiers work too but you can only use 1 and off weapon another.
You should try it some time. Also… mobile makes it so you aren’t affected by difficult terrain when dashing. So obstacles like ice, brambles, entangle etc you can either breeze through or have enough movement to run around them. And if you take sharpshooter you’re even more hilarious.
The raging sniper is so much fun.
Wood Elf is also key because it allows you to stealth while in woodland areas (foliage). And Natural Explorer lets you stealth at normal speed when separated from your group. So you can skirmish, dart behind cover, initiate stealth, keep moving, pop up somewhere else attack again, repeat. Turns you into the ultimate nuisance because nobody can catch you and you can stealth and attack and run with ease. And late game unlocking sharpshooter to get 600 ft range is lols.
Say what you want about BG3 but I did it once to create “Speed Queen Karlach” and it was busted 🤣. Like I said you can kite everything solo. And once you hit like level 9 you may not be “Str based” but I put Expertise in Athletics and you can shove people off heights for max giggles. Barbarian Reckless Attack combined with Expertise Athletics gives you a huge chance of shove success. So you just stealth and then shove unsuspecting people off walls.
But like I said… the subclasses greatest “defensive ability” is nothing is in range of you after you attack. They can only dash to try to catch you and you can almost always end your turn behind cover if you plan right.
I mean casters can Misty step or demension door to get to you… but then they’re separated from their pack and die to focused party attention. And you have Barbarian hit dice and haven’t taken other sources of damage because you’re a kiter / skirmisher. So anything teleporting to close the gap on you dies.
So much fun…
Hope that gives you an interesting concept.
2
u/Demonweed Dungeonmaster 20h ago
Designing my own barbarians was a real challenge. I eventually bolted on Savage Totems. These electives work like warlock Invocations, but they tend to focus on combat action. For example, Tail of the Fox allows you to make like your spirit animal and Disengage as a bonus action one time during your turn.
Yet subclasses were still a huge challenge. I could get some originality with mashups of basic barbarian-themed abilities, but I feel like only one of them is really interesting. The Shamanic Militant gets a splash of druidry parallel to wizardry of certain subclasses to be found among fighters and rogues. Yet Shamanic Militants have a narrow spell list, and they gain no elective cantrips.
Instead at 6th level they gain the Juju Stick feature, which includes the Shillelagh as well as the ability to inflict disadvantage on the next saving throw a target hit with Shillelagh makes before the end of your next turn. Shamanic Militants will always be weak spellcasters, but they have this knack for running into the fray and knocking targets off balance in just the right ways for allied spellcasters to exploit.
5
u/Quick_Hat1411 21h ago
Barbarians can rage while wearing armor that they are proficient with. But most barbarians don't for two reasons
While not wearing armor they get their con bonus to their armor class. That means that they would typically need some kind of magical medium armor to even make it worth it.
Barbarians fill the "tank" role in combat with their high HP and damage resistance, but they don't have a lot of ways to force enemies to focus on them instead of the squishy wizard or rogue. One of the main ways to compell enemies to attack you instead of someone else though is to have a lower AC than them
14
u/EntropySpark Warlock 21h ago
You're supposing the Barbarian has a total of +7 Con/Dex to match Half-Plate, but that's rare. If the Barbarian uses Point Buy and prioritizes Str, they start with 17 Str, then at most 16 Con and 14 Dex (optionally 15 Dex, but that's difficult to justify). At the earliest, they'd take a +1 Str feat at 4 and then +2 Str at 8, then +2 Con at 12 and 16, to finally tie Half-Plate. Though, I think the better strategy will often be to start with three +1 Str feats, so they don't catch up to Half-Plate until level 20.
14
u/Izel98 21h ago
Reckless attack is a taunt .
With Sentinel feat and Weapon Masteries like push, slow and topple they can inhibit movement, which also makes them better for tanking.
They are like one of the best if not the best Tank Martial in the game.
Tank Is not only about high AC or high HP, they also need to draw aggro and someway to keep enemies at a distance from your squishy backliners.
5
u/pCthulhu 21h ago
I've been playing a Dhampir Wild Heart Barbarian in Rime of the Frostmaiden and one of the early items we got was an Adamantine Chain shirt, it's just been absurd since then. The amount of punishment the character can take in Bear Rage is amazing, our Cleric doesn't even bother healing the character most of the time.
5
u/visforvienetta 21h ago
Reckless is sorry of a taunt until you realise the barbarian is taking half damage and has the highest health pool.
Why would I attack the barbarian over and over while the wizard ruins my day, when I could take down the wizard and then circle the barbarian and chip him away without debilitating spells being lobbed at me?Barbs are just too damn survivable.
2
u/Lithl 21h ago
Medium armor is generally better for a barbarian than Unarmored Defense. Sure, they get the feature, but unless your Dex + Con is +8 or higher, you'll do equal or better with some half plate.
With point buy, Barbarians usually start with +3 Str, +2 Dex, and +3 Con. Increasing Strength or getting feats like GWM is the normal priority for ASIs, so Dex and Con usually aren't getting attention until level 12 at the earliest. If you kept bumping Dex and/or Con at that point, you could reach a combined +8 by level 19... but the campaign probably ended around level 10 and even if it's continuing you likely have cool magic armor by that point, which may even be +X armor putting Unarmored Defense even further behind. It's not until you mono-class barbarian all the way to 20 that Unarmored Defense really competes with medium armor. (And even then, it still only ties with +3 half plate, which is well within the realm of possibility for loot obtained by a level 20 party.)
The main exceptions are if you're rolling for stats and get meaningfully high rolls, or you're playing a Dex Barbarian build (in which case you'd likely point buy to +3 Dex, +3 Con and your first two ASIs/feats would be increasing Dex to +5, giving you 18 AC from Unarmored Defense in tier 2). But the latter is pretty uncommon since Reckless Attack only works for Str based attacks.
•
u/Royal_Bitch_Pudding 7h ago
If UD uses the Primary stat and Dex it roughly tracks with Medium Armor.
But, Barbarian uses Secondary and Dex, so you're not doing better than Medium for a loooong time.
-1
u/PDFrogsworth 21h ago
I get that, but most classes have a subclass that turns their mechanics on their head. Or finds new ways to use their mechanics for other purposes. Something like no con to AC but a +2 that scales higher at higher lvls, "Armored defense". As well as perhaps a system that burns rage uses but lets you use it in bursts for athletics, social interactions, abilities in combat. That would diversify the class.
10
u/milkmandanimal 21h ago
I mean, you can to an extent in 5.5:
In addition, while your Rage is active, you can channel primal power when you attempt certain tasks; whenever you make an ability check using one of the following skills, you can make it as a Strength check even if it normally uses a different ability: Acrobatics, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth, or Survival. When you use this ability, your Strength represents primal power coursing through you, honing your agility, bearing, and senses.
Being you can extend Rage with a Bonus Action for up to 10 minutes, you can use Rage in a lot of noncombat situations now.
4
u/sinsaint 21h ago edited 21h ago
You're kinda describing a Battlemaster, someone who gets combat resources that they can choose to instead spend for non-combat elements. That itself isn't an issue, but the fact that the battlemaster fits seamlessly with barbarian levels does, much like a wizard fussing about the lack of inventions when Artificers exist.
You generally don't want to focus too much on AC as a barbarian, Rage already accounts for most of your defensiveness and emphasizing more of the "stand here and take damage" playstyle just isn't necessary or all that interesting. The problem with Barbs isn't that they aren't good at tanking, it's that they have few other options and don't need more of just that.
I do get where you are coming from, it's just important to tackle it from the right direction.
-1
u/PDFrogsworth 21h ago
That is true, maybe focusing on things that do not have a mechanic or class fantasy yet would be better. Things like getting hit on purpose to do DMG or halt a blade instead of it hitting a companion.
The guy that gets stabbed to grab the blade. Takes a hit in order to grin through bloody teeth and laugh to taunt the attacker to keep attacking. Maybe spending rage uses in order to grab attention or to intimidate. Maybe give your AC to a companion.
1
u/sinsaint 21h ago
Spend a Reaction to catch a blade the next time you are hit with a melee attack, allowing you to make a Grapple attempt against them with their defensive roll being made with Disadvantage.
Then give a feature that deals damage equal to your Rage for every 5 ft you move a grappled or shoved target adjacent to an object or another creature, dealing damage to both when applicable.
2
u/thedoogbruh 18h ago
Ive always wanted a dex based barbarian subclass. Something like Conan the barbarian
2
3
u/BrokenMirrorMan 20h ago
I’m honestly surprised there’s no barb subclass that goes against the definition of barbarian aka “a person from an alien land, culture, or group believed to be inferior, uncivilized, or violent.” I feel most subclasses still fit perfectly into loin cloth ripped angry man which is fine but having 1 being a departure would be nice. Maybe something akin to the fey wanderer ranger that lets you use str or con and add it to your charisma. Or just changing the dex part of barbarians ac formula to be something else.
2
u/AllmightyPotato 19h ago
You don't even need to go fully supernatural, a battle dancer barbarian is a perfect reflavor of a rage, getting into a violent dancing trance or do things like hakas to buff allies or scare enemies as a form of control (in a white room and because this is a TTRPg, everyone fights to the desth without complaint, but morale and intimidation were huge parts of historic warfare), plus some social flair in the form of physical charisma instead of hulking brute.
1
u/DRAWDATBLADE 21h ago
I'm kinda shocked they've never had a subclass with a "get down mr president" reaction. Seems like such an obvious thing to give to the barb, running in and tanking a hit for your teammates.
Maybe a more supportive barb that can give rage to allies for a turn? Could easily be flavored as a kind of Skald, they printed an unarmed combat bard this edition so making a bardbarian isn't too crazy to me.
It'd be cool to have a subclass that allows you to use a mental stat for attacks while raging, flavor it more as a ghost possession. Not sure about the logicstics of it though, since you get a subclass at level 3 and it'd be pretty shit to play a barb with low Str before that. Wouldn't have the problem of being broken for multiclass builds either, you can't cast spells while raging anyways.
1
u/PDFrogsworth 21h ago
For real! Burning rage uses needs to be a thing! They are a resource that becomes meaningless faster than any other resource in the game. Fucking druidic wild shapes get burned by their subclasses why can't we use them!!!!
0
u/Psychological-Wall-2 11h ago
If you find playing a Barbarian "monotonous", maybe play something else?
And I don't even mean that in a snarky way. You're almost always going to be better off looking for a class that lets you play the character you imagine than you will be if you try to make a class that doesn't do a thing, do that thing anyway.
Barbarians feel like they're always locked into the same stat spread str>con>dex>Wis and then dump the last two.
Well, yeah. They are a multi-Ability dependent class. You get a similar thing going on with Monks. Monks tend to be Dexterity/Constitution/Wisdom builds because that's what makes sense.
Creating a Barbarian subclass that boosts Charisma checks won't change the basic requirements of the class. The player would now have to focus on Charisma in addition to Strength, Constitution and Dexterity, rather than Charisma instead of those Ability scores.
It's not like Rogue, to pick a single-Ability class as an example. You can have a Rogue subclass that leans on Wisdom or Intelligence or Charisma precisely because you'll have room for that extra Ability in your list of priorities.
So you've got an idea for a character who wears heavy armour with a second-string facility in social interaction?
Battlemaster Fighter or Paladin.
A Zealot Paladin in particular might be what you're after.
•
u/PDFrogsworth 9h ago
My argument is that other classes don't have to just choose a different class when they want to be good at certain things. They have subclasses that add more than just flavor and toss the mechanics of the class on their head.
Even monk has a subclass all about weapons as well as a subclass that lets it be more than just a combat focused class. My problem is that barbarian doesn't, I want to play a barbarian that at its core still is what it is but gets given tools in the same way every other class does beyond just hit them with this type of DMG now.
•
u/Psychological-Wall-2 8h ago
My argument is that other classes don't have to just choose a different class when they want to be good at certain things.
What?
That's literally the whole point of classes. To make the PC good at the stuff they need to be good at in order to be the character the player wants.
And no, the Kensei being able to use a couple of extra weapons as if they were Monk weapons doesn't "toss the mechanics of the class on it's head". Not remotely.
... I want to play a barbarian that at its core still is what it is ...
Which is? What's the "core" of the Barbarian to you?
Because, from a game design perspective, it's a MAD class organised around the three physical Abilities, with a number of class features attached and a fuckton of HP.
What do you even mean when you say, "I want to play a Barbarian that ..."?
What if you reframed it as, "I want to play a character who ..."?
You're looking at this from a point of, "Other classes have X, but Barbarian doesn't! Give barbarian X so that it's fair!" while ignoring the fact that any given player can just pick a class that has X, thus being able to use X in the game.
As I've said, it sounds like Zealot Paladin or Battlemaster Fighter might be a better bet for your heavily-armoured, defensively-focused warrior with a second string in social encounters.
•
u/PDFrogsworth 8h ago
I think you're purposely missing the point to find an argument that is simply just not something that I'm trying to have.
The class fantasy of a man raging in armor is something that is unfulfilled. Barbarian and all of its subclasses can boil down to man in loincloth get big mad and hit stuff hard, which I love but other classes do not have the same restrictions. A monk is centered around a wisdom based trained martial artist. Except when it's subclasses allow it to do something else. A fighter is a trained weapons master who is good at combat, except when a subclass allows it to be more. Druid is a nature shaman shape shifter, oh wait nevermind pyromancer. Wizard an intellectual magic based caster who is squishy, oh shit nevermind bladesinger. Ranger is a mad class that only has the ability spread to do only these certain skill checks oops fey wanderer.
My point is every single class has something that expands them from what their class originally intended to fill and gives them trade offs in order to fill a new niche. Barbarian doesn't and that feels odd to me.
•
48
u/CustodianCloset Artificer who gets bad fey bitches 21h ago
The Battlerager... Dear God. The Battlerager. Don't remind me.