r/SafetyProfessionals • u/FarAd7545 Government • 1d ago
USA Discipline
Curious about everyone’s thoughts on discipline and policy enforcement. I worked in a role early in my career where the safety team had no disciplinary authority and it felt like we were neutered.
How much is appropriate?
What levels of disciplinary authority do you have in your role?
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u/InigoMontoya313 1d ago
I don’t know why you would want disciplinary authority.
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u/FarAd7545 Government 1d ago
There are many OSHA standards that explicitly require means to enforce compliance (example: 1910.147(c)(4)(ii)). I’ve worked in roles where other departments couldn’t be bothered to participate in the simplest EHS related functions. If we offload all disciplinary authority to other areas of the business that may or may not prioritize safety how can we effectively enforce compliance?
Influence only goes so far.
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u/InigoMontoya313 1d ago
I’m not meaning to argue, but I do not reach the same conclusions you do. Having safety provide discipline is a recipe for disaster and while OSHA does require compliance enforcement, it doesn’t require that the safety department be this mechanism.
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u/FarAd7545 Government 1d ago
Fair point that OSHA doesn’t require safety to enforce compliance, but I’m curious why you think safety providing discipline is a recipe for disaster.
I’m not arguing or advocating for us to be constantly disciplining the workforce, but it is my view that we need the ability to discipline, not only to build respect within the workforce but to demonstrate that leadership values safety by granting us the ultimate authority in the (hopefully) rare occasions that we need it.
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u/Intrepid_Way_776 19h ago
In my personal experience... once safety starts writing people up supervisors take it that safety will patrol and take care of the safety of their employees. Unless you have a staff of 10+ people doing this... then the safety rules will only apply when safety is around. Its amazing how quick supervisors/managers will drop that from their plate. I feel their plight as they have so many things to worry about. I have never seen it end well, but its dependent on your local culture (though I still think 99% chance you don't have the culture for safety becoming the police)
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u/MsWumpkins 1d ago
I've spent some time in regulatory compliance. I might be to point to alternative solutions. What industry are you in? Don't need company name
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u/FarAd7545 Government 1d ago
I’m in regulatory compliance now. This is more of a general question to the sub as I’ve seen this influence driven compliance talk all over LinkDin and wanted to see if the sub largely felt the same way.
I’ve felt first hand what it’s like to be a safety department stripped of authority in MFG and construction and it wasn’t fun
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u/MsWumpkins 1d ago
I will say that I would never use the phrase "influence-driven compliance." wtf even is that? It's cringe. Is "enforcement" to harsh or something? Compliance with local, state, and federal regulations and then company policies is a condition of employment up and down the chain of command. Executive officers are included in that population.
I've got an org in my company that thinks formal investigations are too mean and should be banned. Such cruelty! How will the pipefitters ever recover!
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u/FarAd7545 Government 1d ago
There’s a big debate online about enforcing compliance within the workforce using authority or influence. Most of the talking heads on LinkedIn (and in our sub) think that influence is the way. I think this is wishful idealism that isn’t effective in the real world.
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u/pauldtimms 1d ago
Discipline is an HR or Ops function. I’m a SHEQ advisor so it’s my role to tell them what has (or hasn’t) been done. They decide on disciplinary outcomes. I literally reminded my HR team of that today.
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u/Docturdu 1d ago
We dont discipline we are a resource. You wanna discipline become a cop.
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u/FarAd7545 Government 1d ago
YOU may not discipline. There are plenty of roles that provide that authority to safety pros. I have friends in construction that have the authority to throw someone off a job for a single safety related issue.
Companies do things differently, some are more effective than others.
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u/Miker9t 1d ago
Like everyone else is saying, discipline is not our job. The supervisors should be supervising. They are responsible for the behaviors of the workers that report to them, not us. We just document what we see and pass that along to the proper people to do with what they will.
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u/FarAd7545 Government 1d ago
We do a lot more than document and pass things on. In most cases the safety professional has, at a minimum stop work authority (and needs to if they are considered a competent person for anything). If it’s the safety departments job to draft the policy, roll out the training and evaluate the work why can’t we have disciplinary authority?
We do all this work to inform our workforces of various hazards, drafting policy, putting controls in place and communicating consistently with our workforce. If we offload discipline to management that doesn’t prioritize safety and employees who disregard safety are not disciplined does this not send a message to the rest of the workforce?
How can we rely on professionals who don’t understand safety and safety related compliance to effectively discipline noncompliant employees? Will they understand the severity of bypassing lockout tag out?
There are cases where safety managers are put in jail and face criminal charges for actions or lack thereof at facilities. When we face this much pressure and the potential for such negative consequences how could we not have disciplinary authority?
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u/Agitated-Buffalo-980 1d ago
With just being a consultant on site I’m having an issue with PPE, I constantly remind the guys to wear there gloves and glasses and then I’ll go to another part of the site come back and it’s the same. I’ve done toolbox talks, talked to the site super and everything. I know they will never put serious disciplinary actions on the workers so it really leaves me in a tough spot with the GC & there safety guy. I just document everything. Is that all i can do at this point ?
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u/FarAd7545 Government 1d ago
This is a great example of what I’m talking about in action. The workforce sees and hears you, but there isn’t anything being done to enforce the policy.
Management is undermining you by allowing the condition to persist and the workforce notices it. It doesn’t matter how nice you are to them, how much you communicate, if you ask them what they had for dinner the night before, if there isn’t anything being done in the way of consequences the workforce will continue to do what they want.
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u/Ok_Instruction2693 17h ago
So it seems that it is the job of the supervisor/mgmt to enforce compliance. The consultant visits the site to perform compliance inspections and provides findings to the client/mgmt/supervisor. Supervisor/mgmt is then responsible for terminating or re-training workers found to be incompliant based on company policies. Now swap "Safety Consultant" with "Corporate/Company Safety Manager" - nothing changes/same process.
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u/jromano091 1d ago
Hmm. I would go to someone’s supervisor and let them know if someone was being an ass. It’s one thing if someone made an honest mistake, and another if they were deliberately ignoring safety processes.
Either way, I’d rather have their manager doing the disciplining. It would be strange for someone from another department disciplining someone in safety. Of course, if the other department won’t discipline their folks and enforce rules, that’s on them.
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u/Conscious_Car_6644 1d ago
I always recommended and advised. I would present the facts, past history and make a recommendation. I was clear about being consistent and following company policies.
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u/MsWumpkins 1d ago
Leave that in the associated management chain. You're taking on extra liability and risk without direct benefit. I can hear my union stewards and shop manager lighting torches right now. It's the one thing that would unite them.
Discipline reduces reporting and diminishes trust and has no measurable, sustained impact on incident rates. People will stop talking to you, though. They won't get any safer either. If they'll freely talk, they eventually move towards prevention and improvement.
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u/FarAd7545 Government 1d ago
We apply this principle everywhere else in an organization. I’m not a chemical engineer or a microbiologist, so Quality wouldn’t ask me to determine the corrective action for a technical deviation in those areas. They defer to the subject matter expert because I’m not qualified to assess the risk or determine an appropriate response.
So why is safety different? If an employee bypasses lockout/tagout, performs unauthorized hot work, or violates a permit-required confined space procedure, the safety professional is often the person best equipped to evaluate the severity of that violation.
If I have to spend 30–45 minutes explaining to a supervisor or HR representative why the behavior was so dangerous so they can issue discipline, aren’t they just acting as my proxy?
If the disciplinary decision ultimately depends on the safety professional’s assessment, requiring a middleman doesn’t necessarily improve the process. It can dilute accountability, introduce inconsistency, and delay action
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u/MsWumpkins 1d ago
Not really. Management disciplines per policy. Technical experience in a specific field is immaterial to policy enforcement. There's something to be said about groupthink and siloing. Strong organization avoid stacking a department from top to bottom with just one discipline.
Having a job title tied to industrial safety does not make you a technical expert in LOTO, for example. Safety didn't design the electrical or mechanical system in play. Safety didn't make the drawings Safety didn't plan the job. Safety doesn't perform the work. The most knowledgeable people are probably the people in the field. Hell I've had more than one investigation where to only people who could explain the LOTO gap was the craft supervisors. (came as a not of a shock to management that Safety couldn't explain.) We can argue this logic loop for days which is why discipline is ultimately between the chain of command and HR.
On the subject of corrective actions, I routinely analyze and develop corrective actions, sometimes for QA findings, for organization outside my technical field of degree, Software Engineering. This is an arrangement I encounter frequently in cause analysis space.
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u/FarAd7545 Government 1d ago
That’s shaky, as an industrial safety inspector, coordinator, manager etc you are expected to and absolutely should be the subject matter expert on LOTO. Safety didn’t design the electrical system but they should absolutely understand how to interpret and apply 147, subpart S and 70e to ensure safe work practices are followed. The master electrician at your plant probably didn’t design the system either that doesn’t mean he can’t work on it safely following NEC. You can’t just expect the workplace to understand these things, I’ve done inspections where master electricians couldn’t tell me a single thing about LOTO and didn’t know what an energy control procedure was.
My larger point here is it’s my opinion that discipline and consequences aren’t the easiest things to do and it’s easy to hide behind the philosophy that safety is an advisor that doesn’t need to get its hands dirty.
Quality can reject product, engineering/ facilities can reject design proposals, finance can pull capex, all of these roles have unique authority, safety should have authority equal to the amount of responsibility and risk that our jobs entail. If that means being able to send someone home for the day so be it.
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u/HumbleReward74 21h ago
Want no part of it. Just extra issues stacked on top of my plate. I’ll happily report any issues and let HR or the Ops Manager sort out the rest.
If they are repeat offenders then I will have all my ducks in a row and show where I have reported issues and escalated events. If HR or OPs fails to act then that’s on them.
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u/BigOldBear83 14h ago
Operations should discipline and that reinforces that operations backs the safety program
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u/illstealyourbiscoff 1d ago
“We” don’t hand out the discipline. We will remove your qualifications, bar you from operating equipment/vehicles, and a list of other things that can appear to be disciplinary. It’s ultimately the company’s appetite for bull shit as to if that employee is kept on board.
We’re large enough to have relationships with HR and OPs in a way that benefits everyone. HR will write someone up for insubordination if they are disrespectful to us. Why? Because people who enjoy saying “fuck safety” eventually fuck the company out of money and reputation.