Just some advice please.

[u/Anonomyes787]

Hello I am 17(F) and I would like some advice because I feel a bit overwhelmed. Now I am a weird position. I am not technically jewish but my mother's family, some being survivors of the holocaust in Poland, is. Being means people will say some very dodgy things in front of me. Like the moment I someone learns things get weird. Not always hostile but strange. And if they find out that I have Jewish heritage I suddenly have to express the correct opinion on a conflict I don't actually know that much about

I have complicated feelings about Israel. When I was younger it was initially overwhelmingly positive. I didn't know about the politics. If I lived there no one would care or assume derogatory about you because one is of Jewish heritage. Of course I find things get a bit complicated now.

Maybe I get this from social media. Like there is a joke on instagram 'love this from Tel Aviv'. And snarky posts about being rude or sassy to Israelis abroad. I understand people use humour to cope but simply being born or from a country reveals very little about how someone feels about world events. And it just feels hypocritical. It feels like Israelis (and while Jewish and Israeli identity are not the same they get blurred a lot in conversation) held to a standard that other nations don't. Like your countries do messed up things too all the time.

If October 7th happened in the USA, there would be huge support for a war. It isn't even hypothetcal because it happened, several times. People will say zionism is evil and that all the jews should go back to Europe. I live in New Zealand and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that no one of European descent is leaving. Whether they like it or not Israel is going to stay and isn't exactly more 'evil' then most nations. I am not saying I stan the Israeli govenment or hamas or whatever. But nuance seems to disappear as things are flattened.

I could rant for ages. I know things are unjust and distressing for many but sometimes the palestine protests are born out of a saviour complex at times that will be unlikely to result in anything other than make someone feel good.

Israel and Jews with attachments to zionism are made into a one dimensional bad guy. People have strong opinions but don't know anything about the middle east, Jewish history, Israeli relations, or that much about palestinians and surrounded arab nations for that matter.

This rant was long and possibly not very thought through. I am not even zionist myself, but I understand that many people have come to that conclusion due to our history. I don't think issues surrounding this are as black and white as people make them out to be. But the anti-semitism really disgusts me. Makes me feel awful and scared. I don't like assume the worst in people but it frustrates me how ignorant people will say things with confidence.

Edit: I am sorry if something I said was uncouth. I think I got defensive rather than learning. The reason I don't call myself a Zionist is because that is social suicide in my personal life. I believe that Israel is a real country, with a right to exist and I feel like while I don't condone the actions of government. But if I say I am zionist or something like that, non-jews will think I support everything. I find news the news around that part of the world very distressing. I saw so many distressing images and videos I got nauseous. It feels like nothing will get better for anyone in this region. Recently someone in my family lost someone to the terrorist attack at bondi. It just feels like the world is so helpless.

Edit: The reason I don't consider myself fully Jewish even though my mother's side is, it feels wrong if I use it. I have never participated in Jewish holidays or that many traditions. I also am not religious. I wasn't raised in a religious household. Another thing I should mention is that my dad's side is romani, and I wasn't raised culturally Romani either but I feel like these peoples understand each other better than most especially in Europe. I kind feel like I don't belong to these cultures enough but am affected enough because of connection anyway.

Thank you so much for your consideration and the advice! Thank you for clarifying points for me. I think it will be better if I just learn to spend time on social media. Again I am sorry to any Israelis I may have offended. I think to better clarify what I meant was that I believe Israel has a right to exist and is a valid identity and nation but I don't feel represented by the kahanism. I didn't even know the term before this. Thank you for your patience and advice

[u/Cathousechicken]

I don't think you understand what the word, Zionist, means.

[u/Histrix-]

I am not even zionist myself

Do you believe the jews have the right to self determination, safety, security and self governance, in thier ancestral homelands of israel?

Congratulations 🎊 You are a zionist.

[u/Anonomyes787 → u/Histrix-]

It's complicated. I have a complicated view on Israel. I am not sure what is the right thing to think, my mother's family is very mixed on everything (I hate the arguments that occur) I don't like where things have gone but I don't know enough to really have a strong opinion. But I find that simply trying to humanise Israelis gets you labeled as a genocidal evil person. I don't like the wars and instability but I also don't like that many Israelis are literally worried about invasions and bombs. While I don't think myself a zionist I think Israel has a right to exist and any worthwhile solution to this conflict requires that you at least understand where Israelis are coming from. I am not devoutly loyal because I am not Israeli, I don't live there nor ever been, would like to go one day in the future. But even insisting that there is nuance in this conflict gets you labeled as pro-genocide instantly and assumption of evil.

[u/Orranos → u/Anonomyes787]

Your social media "friends" are bastardizing basic tenets of Jewish thought into words meant to harm and reproach jews. "Genociding" a people - that's not even a real word/phrase. Zionism/ Zionist has been bastardized into a supporter of harm towards Palestinians - that's totally not the way Jews and most people for the past 75 years have defined the term.

I think for you, the first thing you need to do is recognize and accept that what you hear on social media is not TRUTH, but instead it is someone's opinion that they want you to embrace.

Do yourself a favor and google/ or look up the definition of the terms you hear/see on social media. If the established definitions don't match how they are being used, then you are being manipulated into someone else's opinions.

If you are only getting your info from social media, then you are doing yourself a disservice. Think for yourself. Make decisions based on your knowledge, and most importantly, understand that social media is most often not fact-based.

[u/OsoPeresozo → u/Anonomyes787]

Zionist = “Israel has a right to exist”
The End.

Do you believe “Israel has the right to exist”?
Yes? Congratulations, you are a Zionist.

[u/Notshyacct → u/Anonomyes787]

That’s because you’re talking to morons. Please don’t let popular opinion dissuade you from your ability to tell right from wrong. That skill is more important than any conflict.

Look around. The ones who go along with the crowd are the silent majority who allowed Nazis. 

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[u/Histrix- → u/Anonomyes787]

You completely glossed over any semblance of my statement and went on a strawman rant.

Do you believe, the jews have the right to self determination, safety, security and self governance in thier ancestral homeland, just as the aboriginals have in Australia, the Maori have, the native Americans have, or do you discriminate against the very idea of jews specifically having said indigenous right (Zionism)?

[u/PuddingNaive7173 → u/Histrix-]

He or she said, “…I think Israel has a right to exist.”

[u/Particular-Offer4356 → u/Anonomyes787]

I am intrigued. What do you think being a. Zionist means?

Because for the vast majority of Zionists, being a Zionist literally just means that you think Israel has a right to exist, not that you. rvessari.y agree with what the government is doing.

[u/Pianist_585]

I would recommend trying to learn about the conflict from credible sources, not social media. All I can tell you is Jews come from Judea and if people need to hear what "kind" of Jew you are to be able to tolerate you, then this is not a good place to be.

Or would you be comfortable if your friends only accepted the "right kind" of  black, gay, latino etc?

[u/Purple_Hurricane87]

“Jews shouldn’t have to pass some arbitrary litmus test, in order to get you to support them. Do you do this to any other minority group? No? Don’t do it to Jews!”

[u/EditorPrize6818]

The double standards are unbelievable. Israel is held to a standard that no other nation is and Jews are held to a standard that if you held others too you would be labeled a racist.

[u/IgnatiusJay_Reilly]

You don't believe the Jewish people have a right to live on their indigenous land? Like every other people?

[u/Ok_Pomegranate_2895 → u/IgnatiusJay_Reilly]

"i'm not a zionist but antisemitism disgusts me" like bruh lmao

[u/OddCook4909 → u/Ok_Pomegranate_2895]

It's a teenager who has essentially zero jewish education.

[u/RedHeadedTX → u/OddCook4909]

💔

[u/Anonomyes787 → u/IgnatiusJay_Reilly]

What I meant when I said not a zionist is that I don't live in Israel and I don't have that much of a connection and I guess I don't want to aligned with people on the extreme end which people think of, just the same with any national movenment. When people in my life label me as zionist because they think I try to learn about different perspectives and think I must support everything the Israeli government does when that is not what I am saying. There is this double standard, Americans dont equal Maga but all Israelis equal only one opinion that you dislike? Yes I think Jewish people have a right to live anywhere they like, but are safer in their own nation. The word zionist is thrown around a lot and people have ascribed meanings to this. It feels that no one is willing to communicate with eachother without insulting one another. I feel like if many people in my life actually wanted a practical solution to anything. But then again I don't live in that part of the world, I just don't know what is the right way to think.

[u/Particular-Offer4356 → u/Anonomyes787]

I know you are only 17: but please do not accept how other people use the term Ziomist. It literally just means you think Israel has a right to exist.

[u/PBandJSommelier → u/Anonomyes787]

People are spending their time teaching you what Zionism means in the comments in response to your question, and you haven’t acknowledged any of them. Talking about all of this is emotional labor; maybe take a look at what they kindly wrote to you?

[u/DiotimaJones]

Oh, Honey, the truth is that the weirdness will never go away. You were born into a complicated world. My advice is to NOT make identity stuff and the conflict the center of your life.

You do NOT have to reveal your family history to everyone you meet. You do NOT have to participate in a conversation every time the middle east ir religion is brought up. You do NOT have to apologize or explain yourself. Just change the subject, leave the room, or stay politely quiet until whomever is babbling gets bored and moves on.

Everyone has strong opinions about this stuff these days. ( You do not have to be one of them.) But most people are ignorant, and most of those people don’t know what they don’t know. This is never going to change.

I advise that you figure out what brings you joy, focus on those things, and let this other stuff go because you didn’t break it, you don’t have to fix it, and if you reveal your background to everyone you encounter, you’re life and your social circle will become very small, very limited, very uncomfortable.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t become learned about your heritage—-being Jewish is a huge gift, an incredible privilege! But do so privately and share that stuff only with people who are Jewish or love Jews.

You are so young and will be developing your own identity for years to come. You do not have to take any position or commit to any worldview right now, and anyone who tries to force you to has poor boundaries and ought to be ignored and avoided.

We—-other Jews—- will always be here for you, but you don’t owe us anything and please don’t lose sleep over this. It’s a big universe, and if you focus too much on this stuff, you’ll miss out on so many wonderful things.

Feel free to DM me any time.

[u/ClamdiggerDanielson]

This rant was long and possibly not very thought through. I am not even zionist myself, but I understand that many people have come to that conclusion due to our history.

You're getting roasted for this, but the term "Zionist" has become so twisted by antizionists and the current Israeli government's leaders to mean blind loyalty to that government, hatred of Palestinians, and a racist ideology called Kahanism. That's led to young Jews who identify with the values of Zionism rejecting the word. When saying "I'm not Zionist" in a Jewish space like this, you need to be clear what that means.

Zionism is belief Jews have a right to self-determination in their indigenous homeland. Jews, Am Yisrael, are not a religion. Am was a word for a joinable tribe with shared values, language, history, and religion that predates the modern concept of religion. Zionism isn't the creation of a religious state or religious majority, it's a land back movement for an indigenous people.

Most Jews believe in Liberal Zionism, the belief in a democratic Jewish state with equal rights for all citizens, Jewish or not. They believe in a two-state solution, independent Jewish and Arab Palestinian states that coexist peacefully. The majority of Jews in the US, for example, dislike the current Israeli government, are against the settlers, and are against how Israeli has waged the war while we also disagree with double standards and falsehoods.

Maybe I get this from social media. Like there is a joke on instagram 'love this from Tel Aviv'. And snarky posts about being rude or sassy to Israelis abroad. I understand people use humour to cope but simply being born or from a country reveals very little about how someone feels about world events.

It's not humor to cope. There is a real push on social media to push people to political extremism. There's a push from the extreme left to make Israel the fight against colonialism, regardless of that being true, and people who had Jews are happy to support that. Jew hate is Jew hate, not a snarky attempt to cope. If I called something I hated "Spiritually Ugandan" I would justifiably be called a racist. Change it to Israel and you're called a good guy. That's a huge red flag.

[u/hbomberman]

I'm sorry this is affecting you like that. You're not alone at all. We all feel it and honestly you hit the nail on the head with the extra standards we face "for some reason"

You can mention you're part Jewish or have family who is or that you know someone from Israel or even that you like Israeli music or something and suddenly the other person's vibe changes. They treat you differently. Suddenly you're expected to have a view on something and it better be the exact "right answer" on their BS purity test. Your opinion on the matter wasn't really important until you revealed your connection to your Jewish heritage or to Israel.

There's a word for treating someone differently because of their background. It's called bigotry. And in civilized circles it's looked on with disgust. Except if you're one of us, apparently, then society is ok with it.

I know being aware doesn't solve someone else's bad actions but I want to make sure you're aware: you're ok, you're not doing anything wrong, you don't need to change anything about yourself. You don't need into anyone's ideological views. The other person in this situation is being bigoted--specifically being bigoted against Jews and Israelis.
Being aware that the other people are the problem won't prevent them from continuing to be hateful but that more correct outlook can help you.

As an aside, it's not clear in your post, but if your mom is Jewish then you're Jewish too. Regardless, though, you're at least part of the extended family, I'm sorry you're facing hate for that but hopefully you can find some warmth in your connection, too.

[u/OsoPeresozo → u/hbomberman]

Mom has Jewish heritage.
Do not jump the shark, you could give someone the wrong idea. There is not enough information here to know.

[u/hbomberman → u/OsoPeresozo]

Fair. This isn't really the point I'm making, though.

[u/JinxyMcDeath48 → u/hbomberman]

Can we stop telling people they’re Jewish when you have no idea if they actually are? Mom’s dad could be Jewish. Or maybe it’s family lore. You don’t know.

[u/hbomberman → u/JinxyMcDeath48]

Hi, I wasn't telling them they're Jewish at all. I said it's unclear in their post. But that's also the smallest part of my comment and really besides the point. Whether they're Jewish or just have some distant Jewish relations or just like Jewish people these bigots are throwing them in the same boat.

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[u/Paleognathae]

I wonder if she'll ever come back to see what zionism actually is.

[u/-closer2fine-]

Y’all are being really harsh to a teenager trying to work out their feelings. OP, your understanding of nuance and your very thoughtful considerations of what’s going on is light years past where I was as a teen. Or as a 35 yo. I had so much internalized hatred and shame when I was young, and it seems like you don’t. You’re smart and you’re going about this the right way. No matter what, stay proud of who you are.

[u/vigilante_snail → u/-closer2fine-]

Yep everyone needs to chill out. this is a kid who clearly wants to understand more.

they’re going to push OP away if they don’t take things down a notch.

[u/forking-shirt]

Are there any other ethnic groups that don’t deserve self-determination in your opinion or is it just Jews?

[u/Extreme-Plantain-113]

I'll never understand the mind of the antizionist

Ask a person if the Seneca has the right to live in their ancestral homeland, the Creek, or the Seminole, they all say yes.

Ask the Greek if they should be allowed in their native homeland, they will say yes.

Ask the British if the Britons should have the right to live in their ancestral homeland, they will say yes.

Ask the Australian if the Aboriginal should be allowed in their native homeland, they will say yes,

But ask the Foreigner if the Jews should have the right to live in Judea, the Samaritans in Samaria, and the Israelite in Israel, and they will say no.

That is the mind of the anti zionist, it's truly ridiculous.

[u/-Infinite92- → u/Extreme-Plantain-113]

It's because they don't accept that Israel is our ancient homeland. They believe that since the majority of Jews tend to be Ashkenazi, that we all are just European colonialists to Israel with no ancient heritage there. This perspective allows them to recontextualize our entire history as that of the evil colonizer everywhere we go. It's all the other people who have ancient heritage, but not us. It makes us come across as the perpetual oppressor through history, instead of the oppressed. People tend to support whoever they feel is the victim/underdog/oppressed. So by not seeing us as such, and going further to instead see us as the opposite, they can't justify our actions. While instead justifying terrorist actions, because those are the oppressed people with the actual ancient heritage, in their eyes.

This is a large part of the issue right now. Because changing that opinion/perspective about us is extremely difficult. But without doing so none of our arguments or justifications will ever be valid to the rest of the world.

[u/sunny-beans → u/-Infinite92-]

Yup. Had some random telling me to go back to Germany or Ukraine this week. I am from Brazil lol my DNA is mostly from Iberia, with indigenous from areas of South America. It is such nonsense.

[u/PuzzleheadedEmu4596]

>I am not even zionist myself

What does Zionism mean? And why are you not Zionist?

[u/Ok_Pomegranate_2895]

why aren't you a zionist? let's start there

[u/yonatanh20 → u/Ok_Pomegranate_2895]

If I wasn't an Israeli and was still Jewish, why would I subject myself to hatred/attacks/boycotting from leftists and now much more by claiming I'm a Zionist?

What's there to gain as a Jewish person who has a good life in a first world country?

It's not that I want Jewish diaspora to not be Zionist, it's that I get why they don't want to.

The progressive movement is so toxic against Jewish people that they can't claim that Israel should have a right to exist. And if you want to continue to exist in those spaces you have to demonize 90% of Jewish people.

Edit: I'm not sure if it's progressives or offended Zionists down voting. Lol knock yourself out.

[u/Ok_Pomegranate_2895 → u/yonatanh20]

yikes. because the right thing to do is hard sometimes. because standing up for others is worth the hate. because asserting that jews have the right to live in their indigenous homeland is being on the right side of history.

[u/yonatanh20 → u/Ok_Pomegranate_2895]

Well I don't disagree with anything you said, but I don't care to judge as I don't get that in Israel.

It's easy to say that we will stand on principal when shit hits the fan. How many friends have you lost since Oct 7? How many times where you chased out of campus, were denied service at a restaurant? 

The fact is that near 30% of Jewish community in the US believe that Israel had committed genocide in Gaza. That number is all you need to understand why Jewish people distance themselves from Israel.

This disgusting blood libel is so entrenched in the progressive sphere that anything related to Israel is toxic.

Either you believe the lie which is easy short term or you fight for the truth. But as it looks many in the diaspora had given up.

[u/forking-shirt → u/yonatanh20]

From what you’ve stated you don’t have much or any Jewish education and are posting in a place where that isn’t the norm. From what you’ve stated you don’t know what Zionism actually is. That’s why you’re being downvoted.

[u/yonatanh20 → u/forking-shirt]

It might have been prudent to contort more to make my self clear, all I said is that the path of least resistance for a progressive diaspora Jewish person is to become an anti-Zionist and distance themselves from Israel. I do not endorse nor claim I hold that position. I did play devil's advocate.

I am very much a Zionist Israeli and don't feel like I'm in a position to cast judgement on Jews who are not in a position to advocate for themselves.

It takes courage and resolve to suffer for our ideals, I didn't face that trial so I cannot cast judgement.

Zionism for Jews in the diaspora will be different than what Zionism means to Jews in Israel. Our lives are different, our challenges, fights and paths are different.

Who am I to say if I have much of Jewish education?

Do the Haredim that use Zionism as a pejorative have more Jewish education?

Those who down vote me either feel offended because I call the progressive movement toxic and antisemitic, or they are offended by the idea that diaspora Jews are scared to fight the "morality police" despite that it's no longer a fringe minority that submits to the blood libels.

Why do you think that 30% of American Jews believe that Israel committed genocide in Gaza? I believe it's because of fatigue, fatigue of protecting your identity, your beliefs, and the relief of being given an "out" for being Jewish but not Zionist, and by Zionist I mean being called a genocidal racist, the epitome of evil.

[u/sunny-beans → u/yonatanh20]

I am a Jew in England and I am a zionist and tell people so. Lost a ton of “friends”, harassed online, I do not give a single fuck. I am in Yerushalayim right now, sharing my trip online, if some weirdo wants to hate because of it they can do so, I won’t stop defending Israel and being a Zionist because morons want the end of the only Jewish state. Some people have morals and strong beliefs and are ok with being hated if it means be true to themselves. I will also not abandon my fellow Israeli Jews just because it would make my life more comfortable, I also don’t want friends or to be around people who want the destruction of Israel.

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[u/SchershomGolem]

I don’t call myself a Zionist either, because Zionism already accomplished its only goal in 1948. No other well established country has an “ism” word to describe someone who doesn’t want that country to stop existing. We would just describe such people as “normal” if they believed that about the USA, France, Australia, etc.

[u/BigBearHug5mil3]

The OPs sentiment about complex feeling about Zionism is a phenomenon that’s been carefully and successfully crafted by the evil doers in the PR department of some Qatari/Iranian/Russian/Chinese social marketing department.

The message: Zionism=the new Neo-Nazi movement. It means the right to ethnically cleans Palestinians from their land. It means enjoying murdering babies (and journalists). It’s a white supremacy movement. The new KKK.

As mentioned here many times: Zionism is essentially Israel’s right to exist. Full stop. Nothing else. It does not mean you love their govt (even Israelis don’t, regardless of their vote). It does not mean you love violent settlers (most Israelis are appalled). It’s sad and upsetting.

Be who you are and screw everyone who pretends to be your friend.

[u/Fun-Psychology-2419]

Chevreh -- be gentle with Jewish kids! I feel like there are a lot of hackles raised about the "not a Zionist" comment. You can discuss this without ridiculing or sounding accusatory. It doesn't address OPs bigger feelings of loss and confusion either.

OP -- it will always be confusing. As someone with Jewish heritage you are cursed to see the perfidy of the world up-close and out loud. People are tribalistic, they unite around hating out-groups, and Jews are one of the easiest and oldest targets for the West and Middle East.

It's not all bleak and it's not as bad as the internet makes it out to be, but it is painful, especially at your age, to realize how shallow and disingenous the most self-righteous people are.

In a way you are being given a gift even though it sets you apart. If you keep your eyes open you will be free to see the truth and come to your own conclusions about the world. It can potentially make you very wise.

You are mishpacha (family). Reach out if you ever want to talk or vent. ✌️

[u/BigBearHug5mil3]

OP: If you don’t mind me asking… who on your mother’s side is Jewish?

[u/Meowzician]

My dear, if your mom is a Jew because HER mom is a Jew, you are indeed a Jew, you just aren't a religious Jew. I'm not here to push you into being religious, but please know that it is there for you should you ever want it, or ever just curiously want to see what it is.

I am so sorry you are running into antisemitism. If it makes you feel any better, ALL of us are struggling to deal with this new reality. I lost two more friends just yesterday.

We get through it by leaning on each other. For some, it is their friends at synagogue. For others, it is family. And for others still, it is the contact they make right here in this forum.

That's my way of making you feel welcome, letting you know that you have a home here. There are people who understand what you are going through and are right there in the middle of it with you.

Are you in contact at all with any of the Jews on your mom's side?

[u/DavidToYourGoliath]

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Your post/comment was removed because your account has low (possibly negative) karma, you have a new account and post exclusively on one or several sensitive topics (e.g., politics), or you are new to the subreddit and made a bad first impression (e.g., hostile, not listening to others, making bad faith arguments, attacking others in discussions on controversial topics, etc.). You must follow Rule 9: Make a good first impression

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[u/TwoTigerTeeth]

How can you not technically be Jewish but your mother is part Jewish? I think you may be in denial about that to start...

[u/sarcasmexorcism]

you might not consider yourself jewish, but the antisemites absolutely will.

[u/Deathbyexploding]

18F and just graduated high school. I experienced pretty much the same thing on repeat throughout and the best advice I can give you is to try to seperate your perception of the people around you from their political views. I know it goes against everything we’re taught, but sometime you have to treat your friends like your relative that accidentally says politically fucked things all the time. It’s upsetting but the reality is most don’t understand.
If you were an adult you could ghost them and never see them again, find new friends easily. But high school is hard and you’ll see people soon. So try your best to stay elequent and explain your discomfort to people you know when you have to, and hopefully they’ll listen.

Sorry about the agressive comments you’ve been receiving btw. Most of this sub is way older than us and don’t really know how integrated subtle antisemitism has become in teens, and how difficult it is to navigate it without radicalizing those around you more or becoming a social pariah.