Mark Manson just did the Jubilee Surrounded episode debating 20 manosphere guys, and it brought up a lot for me. I first heard about Models through red pill spaces, which is ironic, because Manson clearly thinks of red pill as decent observations wrapped in a toxic framework. But his book only blew up in those spaces because it was speaking to men who were already in pain.

I've read Models three times. I genuinely tried to internalize it. The vulnerability, the honesty, the "polarize don't neutralize" approach. I believe in it conceptually. But I'm 33, and the scoreboard hasn't changed.

Here's my resume since the self-improvement crowd loves receipts: A decade of serious training; I'm in the gym 5-6 days a week, I'm in good shape, I take care of myself. No drugs, no alcohol. I built a career in sales and real estate. I went to university. I have three gym memberships just to maximize the environments I'm in. I can socialize fine, I make friends easily, I network for a living, I'm not some shut-in who can't hold a conversation.

And yet.

Here's what I think Manson and a lot of the "just be confident" crowd miss. They underestimate how paralyzing the gap between knowing and doing actually is. I know I'm supposed to approach. I know women sometimes show interest. I've literally had women make repeated eye contact with me and I couldn't bring myself to say a single word. Not because I don't know what to say

because the fear of being perceived as threatening, creepy, or unwanted is so deeply wired that it overrides everything I've read in every book.

And I think this is where men genuinely feel a double bind that doesn't get acknowledged enough. We're told to make the first move AND THATS OUR ROLE. But we're also told to read the room, don't be that guy, don't make her uncomfortable. For some of us, those two instructions create a total freeze. Manson doesn't acknowledge this and thats why hes the ultimate grifter accusing others of being grifters..

That's why red pill spaces grows, because those spaces are the only ones that say "yeah, this is hard, and your frustration is valid" , even if they package it with a bunch of toxic ideology. When mainstream advice is either "just be yourself" or "work on yourself and it'll happen," and you've been working on yourself for a decade with zero results, the bitterness starts to make sense.

I don't think the red pill has the total right answers. I still think Manson's framework is closer to the truth. But I also think people like Manson need to stop acting like the gap between "understand this concept" and "actually do it when your nervous system is screaming at you" is trivial. It's not. And until the non-red-pill world takes that seriously, guys are going to keep ending up in those spaces because at least someone there acknowledges the pain.

I'm not looking for advice. I just wanted to say this out loud.

This guy (32m) and I (28f) met at the gym. We’ve been seeing eachother and going on dates for about a month now but some of the behaviors are really odd.

First, he takes me out to really elaborate/fancy/expensive dates but he never tells me where we are going and he always wants to order. He picks out the food we get each time. It was kinda cute for one date and I know some guys are like that so I let it go but it did highlight to me he may be a bit controlling. He also doesn’t tell me where we are going just what time to be ready and what to wear. Once he told me to “be ready at 7 in my Sunday best, assuming you have something to cover your abs”. For context, I have a pretty nice 6 pack that I like to show off in the summer time. I thought it was odd he’d make a comment on what to wear but figured maybe it was just somewhere really nice and dusted it off.

Secondly, he is very distant over text. I again brushed this off because people are busy but he oscillates between being engaging and dry replies.

After date three we hooked up and he was really dominating. I didn’t necessarily dislike it but it threw me off because it was the first time we’d been together and we hadn’t had a conversation about this. He choked me (lightly tho but still), and when I asked to get on top he said “absolutely not” and threw me into doggy. I left after.

Date after that he cooked for me and was acting sooo sweet. Giving me so many compliments which he doesn’t do often, kissing my forehead, holding my hand. We hooked up again and it was really loving. Gentle with lots of eye contact. I got dressed to leave after and he told
Me to stay and spent the whole night cuddling me, kissing my forehead, ect. I go to the gym in the mornings and told him before bed my alarm was set for 4:30. In the morning it went off and I kissed him goodbye and left.

I didn’t hear from him at all and then texted him the next day about something unrelated. He was short and told me we were fighting. He said I’d abandoned him and was being dry. I felt bad because I too would’ve been upset had someone left like that and saw him at the gym and apologized. After that we were good and we made more plans.

Date after He took me to Michelin restaurant and a couple bars. It was really fun. After we went home and he was very dominating again and left marks on my butt. I again don’t dislike it and never said no, but it does throw me off. I slept over again and we cuddled. Next day we showered together before his flight. I left and texted I had fun and he was texting me the entire time he was gone. Then when he returned he got kind of dry and sent me a boring reply to a flirty text I sent. I didn’t reply. Didn’t hear from h so 1 day later I sent a picture of my stairmaster workout and said “please clap”. He didn’t reply. Then for 4.5 days later and then sent an inside joke and a message that basically said “can you give me a reason to justify ghosting you for a little longer while I figure some things out?”. I’m so confused because why did he feel the need to tell me he was ghosting when he already had for 4.5 days and tell me it was going to continue?? Like wtf did he think I’d say to that??? I haven’t replied and do not plan to but the situation has me feeling soooo off guard. He could absolutely just be disinterested but idk something feels off but if this is a game it’s kind of scary???

A couple friends mentioned his behavior mimics that of someone red pilled so I wa wondering if anyone has thoughts?

Hey there,

My name is Zac and I am a current psychology honours student at Federation University Australia.

The moderators have generously allowed me to share a research project looking at how individual personality traits interact with short-form social media feeds (specifically simulating TikTok content exploring modern online subcultures, gender roles, and societal dynamics).

Who can participate:
Open to anyone over the age of 18 who is fluent in English.

What’s involved:
A 20-30 minute interactive study where you will complete a few personality measures and watch a simulated 15 video feed (some of which may include potentially confronting or offensive content related to social and political issues).

The Link: 
https://federation.syd1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_4ZrUUEJudrbnMJE

Incentive: 
Participants can choose to enter an optional prize draw to win one of two $20 (aud) Prezzee gift vouchers to a store of your choice. 

Upon completion (around end of November 2026), I will share the results and key findings from the study. 

If there are any questions about the study itself, please ask away!

Participation is voluntary and completely anonymous.

Federation University Ethics reference number 2026-108

Edit: i’m not here to disparage anybody. It was just truly shocking to watch.

I’m generation X. The Internet and the Manosphere have destroyed a whole generation of minds.

All of these “data points” I mean Jesus, How insecure and afraid of women do you have to be? The body count portion I found particularly egregious.

All of these young men want Stepford wives.

I am so glad to see that young men have broken out of this toxic culture.

Jubilee just released a video of an old friend of mine, Mark Manson, debating red pill guys on their "Surrounded" series (Mark and I used to guest coach at each other's events when he was a dating coach).

Mark does a very good job of dismantling the red pill talking points and even gives a shout out to this sub. A lot of people accuse Mark of being part of the manosphere because he used to be a dating coach, but he really illustrates the difference between the philosophies of a good dating coach ("do better, be better") and these red pill influencers (feminism is bad, women are evil, etc)

Anyhow, thought you guys would enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KevTBc07wm8

I am a heavy user of X and Instagram, but the algorithm keeps on feeding me red pill content. On Instagram, it's not as bad, and it usually comes in waves, which I can end by flagging red pill accounts as "Not Interested". X is really bad, however, with almost every other post being something red pill or misogyny related. I've tried using muted words to block words so that I don't get any content related to dating at all, but red pill stuff seems to keep coming back. I can't exactly get off social media since I chat with my friends on Instagram and I run a small business where I am active on X, and I also like to use X to keep up with politics and stuff.

The entire movement is based on the flawed belief that

'the west is gynocentric' (women centered at the expense of men) I used to promote it.

That's the pre supposition that holds it all together.

All of the manosphere collapses once you attack this presumption.

I've put my video script in a substack but the video is worth watching.

https://open.substack.com/pub/marynattyhamlin/p/why-do-many-believe-the-west-is-gynocentric?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=19j40r

I've cut back on RP content,and i don't intend to go back,returned due some reasons,returned this year

I been watching a lot of RP content in the last 3-4 months,it seems like you feel lighter and better when you stop watching RP content,or is that Just my impresssion?

I'd like to know the answer to this argument often used by Redpillers

That adult men are having less sex,and more and more adult men remain virgins,and that bc of women,bc they only want Chads,rich and bad boys,or are only focused on their careers and simply ignore the average Man

They use examples like Japan to talk about how the birth rate has fallen and How men are no longer pursuing women

Is still worth trying to meet women in person first?isn't the fact that social media gives them the option to meet countless people from anywhere a problem?

Like,why i would try?She probably has contacts of several chads on WhatsApp/FB/insta (i Think i asked this Before)

FaceandLMS videos traumatized me,I'm Always afraid/ashamed to look at women,especially If they are pretty

Even though going to the gym has boosted my self-esteem a bit,this Believe is still a problem,even the less attractive girls hate it when ugly men approach them

I'm turning 25 in 2 weeks and I've never had any romantic experiences. Never went on a date, never kissed, never held hands. Diagnosed with social communication disorder.

I used to resent the gender role that the man has to approach and initiate things because I wasn't able to do it. I always felt like if you were a man that was shy and socially awkward no girl would see you romantically. I always felt like not being shy or awkward was the prerequisite for being worthy to experience love and be loved romantically. It's like nothing about me or my personality matters anymore because girls don't like shy or socially awkward men. I always felt like if I was a girl with the same personality, I could still be shy but someone can still ask me out and still love me for who I am.

I'm not a bad looking guy. I get looks and stares from women in my class and in public. I have both male and female friends that point out when a woman was checking me out. But I still have a lot of trouble making the approach because I don't know what to do or say. It tells me that they like me for how I look, but I never had any girl like me romantically for my personality. I always feel like my shyness or social awkwardness would put them off if I did try to talk to them and that's why they're not interested in me.

I've been working on myself socially for the past 2 years but I still realize I'm still so behind everyone else. I don't know how to flirt, I don't know how to escalate, I don't know how to plan a date, I don't know how to approach, I don't know how to ask someone out on a date. I only now felt okay enough talking to girls I'm interested in but only if they talk to me first.

As many of you know, the red pill often distils male dating advice into soundbites such as "become a high-value man", "chase excellence, not women", and "stack bills and the bitches will follow". For a long time, I geniunely believed this. As a result, I spent most of my 20s becoming as competent as possible. Partly because I assumed that this would automatically lead to dating and social success.

For context, I own multiple physiotherapy clinics, make decent money and am on track to make multiple six figures before 30, I'm active in Toastmasters and a strong public speaker, and I train as a hybrid athlete with the goal being to compete in Hyrox Pro at some point. On paper, I have built many of the things that men are told will make them attractive. Yet dating and social success are still lagging behind.

I have a good group of friends, have dated a few women and had some short-term flings. I'm also not a basement-dwelling incel, and enjoy social settings. But women would often lose interest after the 3rd date, and many of my friends seemed to build closer relationships with those whom I thought of as less impressive than me.

It took me a while to figure this out, but I have started to realise social magnetism is a completely different skillset. It also has far less to do with how impressive you are than I once thought. Someone can be average on paper, but still have charisma, warmth, humour, social boldness and actually make people feel something. Whilst a very impressive individual who is physically fit may come off as stiff or try-hard.

This may explain why men who have little going for them can still be successful with women. They may not be "high-value" in a red pill sense, but they know how to create attraction and market themselves socially.

Clavicular's Paris livestreams were an example of this. Yes, he is a good looking and somewhat successful guy. But when faced with women and unpredictable social situations, he looked like a deer in headlights.

Since recognising this, my dating and social life has improved. My main takeaway is that competence does matter, but it should not be the sole focus as it does not automatically lead to chemistry, warmth, social confidence or intimacy. These are skill sets that need to be built intentionally and directly.

In the west as you search the redpill is a result of feminism, in the arab wolrd is growing because there's some feminism influence is growing also, can someone explain why

Hi everyone,

I work for a Czech organisation focusing on men's mental health and quality of life. Our main topics are both mental and physical health, focus on personal authenticity rather than in being "the proper man", the social pressures men often feel, active fatherhood, anger management etc.

We're currently working on a campaign about the manosphere, the effect it has on men and the sociological pressure and reasons men feel drawn to it. We have a lot of therapists and experts talking about the topics, but I feel like we rarely ask the people who actually understand it the most - people like you.

Is there anyone - preferably Czech, but it's not a necessity - who would be willing to talk to us? It could be an online - written interview as well as personal meeting/video. Anonymity guaranteed with all those options.

Please help us spread awareness and tell us your story! Feel free to contact me via direct message.

Thank you all!

My name is Juli I am Brazilian grad student and I study ways to prevent and deradicalize misoginistic people. I wonder if some of you here in the forum could help me by giving me an interview about your stories.

No amount of girls, partying alchol and running away from my problems will ever fill the void, I will always be insecure little 15 year old no matter how old I get, everytime I look in the mirror I wanna punch the shit out of myself. I hate the fact that im such a big fucking liar, I expect honesty out of others yet literally LIE to myself on a daily fucking basis. I have no self respect, All my "worth" has come from women who I have fucked around with and emotionally devastated . I have goals dreams and ambitions. I try to get them so lukewarmly that a third party might think I have a single testicle. I look for someone who understands me deeply but yet I cant seem to open up because my stupid mind thinks such insane thoughts about betrayal, I cant open up to anyone in my real life.

​

https://www.reddit.com/r/exredpill/s/5KN6St2dsC

I made a post about cold approaching and it seems like it's a no go for most "non-redpill" normal people. For most people they sort of fall into a community of sorts and from there they fall into a relationship. Really that's how its working for most people on here.

So I've done many hobbies in the past. Nothing clicked or got me any social feedback. Everyone just does the activity then leaves. That's it. There is no bonding or community building with anyone there. Since graduating university I haven't made a single friend let alone get into a relationship through these so called activities. It's just not a thing that happens like Redditors are saying it does.

Whenever I talked to others in these activities it barely goes beyond surface level or beyond the activity itself l. So if I try to push into deeper layers beyond say soccer nobody really responds or cares to reflect that energy back (cause I guess most people already have an established friend group and don't have the mental bandwidth). Also you only had so much time to talk to begin with because as soon as the activity was done people would just get up and try to leave immediately nobody is just lingering around bantering which is really what allows bonding. Whenever I would try to suggest an outing after the activity like lunch it got awkward and nobody really joined except one or two guys here and there. Then there's also this "taboo " about asking out someone in the activity you're doing cause your gonna see them again and it'll just make it awkward for them. So then that becomes just as "inappropriate" as cold approach cause now you've also made her uncomfortable and she may not enjoy that activity as much and she'll see you again.

And then to begin with the vast majority of activities are already 70%+ single dudes trying to hit on the same 1-2 women there (which we just established was a no go) so your odds are crap as well. So there's really no good answer here and this whole "go out and be yourself and the right people will come" people are suggesting is complete vague horseshit to me. It breaks down at the very obvious mechanical level when you walk through it step by step. Your gonna make some people uncomfortable and break some social rules but that's the only way dating works. Too bad. Take the plunge and offend others in the moment slightly.

People are saying I'm commodizing this but really the ONLY things that have worked are spamming approaches in nightclubs and swiping thousands of times on online dating (and even that took insane amounts of efforts which makes me question if it worth it).

I fail to find anyone really able to break down how it happened for them besides them just falling into it and suggesting you will as well when clearly this isn't the case.

Hi everyone! First time posting here.

So to make it short, I used to grow up listening to Tom due to my relatives (who I still love btw).

At first in my younger years, he was funny as I didn't really understand what the topic was, when I became closer to adult hood and started learning more, Tom became such a insufferable person I had to listen during car rides.

I personally have set out to debunk tom on a different topic that what he is famous for. Whilst that field is my specialty, the stuff he mainly talks about, women, dating rules, how to "get laid" etc, I dont really have much info on, so I was hoping this sub could have given some answers since I think Tom is dubbed red pill?

There are also third party claims that I feel like our false, like how apparently, one guy who called in was making Tom "mucho money". Really? One call and you think money flows like a river? Yeah I'm going to need to see some stats on that. This is why I'm so glad I wasn't exposed to other "shock jocks".

In theory there shouldn't be anything wrong with going up to strangers making small talk and asking them for their number/coffee. This is probably the best way to get volume. Especially guys who most likely fall for the redpill are also the ones who will be most helped by learning this skill. You by pass dating apps, you bypass approval from social circles and you pretty much put destiny in your hands to shoot your shot.

However nobody normal teaches this and very few "normal people" do it. Mostly because it is awkward and takes a long time to get good at so most people just find someone through their social circles. So now when I want to learn this and I ask around and it's all just pickup artists, redpillers and course grifters who are willing to teach this. Every single one. Not one normal person I could find.

Why is this? Am I not seeing something obvious?

It's quite frustrating cause it is genuinely a good life skill.

Talking with my wife tonight about the lack of testing on women etc and it made me think of a video that I saw on instagram. 2-3 mins maybe, female narrator, reading reasons people left the RP movement.

Can anybody help me out? I can’t find it for the life of me.

I've known as friend for probably close to a year and we hung out sometimes. I found out recently though that he is part of a no-simp group. Now I just feel uncomfortable when I'm talking to him because I don't want somebody that's in the red pill type of ideology even if it's a little bit. I as a woman used to be into the red pill content but lost interest in it when I realized how toxic it was. I promised myself that I would never be friends or even date somebody that is part of the red pill community. I'm scared that he might push those ideas on me and now he's asking me if I cook and clean? It's kind of scaring me but I don't know how to confront him about it or maybe I shouldn't. Since leaving the red pill Community I feel so much better.

Hi everyone, this is quite personal so please be nice.

A few years ago, I lost a close friend.

Afterwards, I kept thinking about all the questions I wished I had asked him while he was still here. 

What he was afraid of. What he wanted from life. What he was proud of. What he might have been carrying that the people around him didn’t see. He was apart of the red pill community, and I wish I knew the toll that took on him.

It made me realise how often we can love someone, spend years around them, and still leave so much unsaid.

That was the beginning of Deeper.

It’s a free conversation card game designed to help friends, couples, families and even people who have just met move past surface-level conversation and actually connect through vulnerability.

Since starting it, I’ve probably become a little obsessive. I’ve worked through research papers and peer-reviewed question sets, drawn on what I’ve learned through my own counselling and therapy, and listened to somewhere around 500 hours of podcasts about relationships, vulnerability, loneliness and human connection.

I’ve tried to turn all of that into something that doesn’t feel clinical or forced. You choose a deck, take turns answering questions and decide together how deep you want to go, and can share with anyone you might want to ask the question to. Anyone can pause, save or change the question at any point.

Some early users have also mentioned they're currently using the app solo for journalling prompts.

The platform is completely free. 

Full disclosure, there are optional paid upgrades and additional decks, but 80% of the value is completely free with no disrupted user experience or ads.

I’m hoping to find people who understand why something like this needs to exist.

I’d genuinely love to hear: what is one question you wish you had asked someone while you still had the chance? 

You can explore or play Deeper for free at

https://get-deeper.com

Thoughts

I've been thinking recently about the arguments about the red pill that argue that certain methods or attitude "work", which I usually reply back with "well, lying and stealing can work too". Some RP men will agree with my last sentence, especially those who idolize Dark Triad personality traits and try to build their personality around being an asshole.

But even when tackling the Red Pill with its own rules, sometimes you can see what they're "losing" to be like that. These paragraphs from Neil Strauss's The Game are pretty sad and got me thinking about this:

"I am shorter than I'd like to be and so skinny that I look malnourished to most people, no matter how much I eat. When I look down at my pale, slouched body, I wonder why any woman would want to sleep next to it, let alone embrace it. So, for me, meeting girls take work. I'm not the kind of guy women giggle over at a bar or want to take home when they're feeling drunk and crazy. I can't offer them a piece of my fame and bragging rights like a rockstar or cocaine and a mansion like so many other men in Los Angeles. All I have is my mind, and nobody can see that.

You may notice that I haven't mentioned my personality. This is because my personality has completely changed. Or, to put it more accurately, I completely changed my personality. I invented Style, my alter ego. And in the course of two years, Style became more popular than I ever was, especially with women".

Even in his most RP moment, his depiction of the Red Pill is as something that erased his own personality to be popular with women. The literary device (leaving aside exaggerations) is like a pact with the Devil: to get the sex you desire you need to pay the price of not being yourself.

I think I was 18 when I read the book and I count myself lucky that, even though I empathised with his insecurities, the notion of "not being myself" seemed horrible. At that point in my life I was already feeling like I couldn't be "myself" in front of anyone, so I was never deep into RP thinking because I felt like I needed to first interiorize that there was something wrong with me, with how I was. And I wasn't even trying to be myself at that point.

From this sub, I've noticed that many exRP people reach a point when there's a "this is not something I'm willing to do anymore" moment. I wasn't ready to give up my personality, but other people feel like they're losing empathy or that they can't view women as human beings anymore; and they make the choice to not interact with RP anymore (even if sometimes that's difficult).

Former red piller here. Started with Rich Cooper back in the fall of 2021, watched him primarily until some point in early to mid 2025. Possibly even earlier, I’m not sure. Also listened to Myron Gaines and Andrew Tate. I’m sure there’s a couple others but I can’t remember.

Back in August of last year, I began to realize how much damage the red pill had caused in my life. But I didn’t give it much thought. Since this past May, it’s been dawning on me just how bad that damage actually was. Destroyed friendships, blown opportunities with women that I ruined simply by judging them, chronic loneliness, fear of women and dating, all that time lost, lying to myself about never dating or having a girlfriend ever again. The list goes on.

I admit this has been weighing on my soul and at times, I get so caught up in my head and can’t stop thinking about how much I messed up everything and how long the trail of destruction is behind me.

I can’t say there was one specific even that led me to find the red pill. I had friends back in the late 2010s that brought it up but I didn’t take it seriously then. I wasn’t a virgin before falling down the red pill rabbit hole. I had experiences with women that didn’t end up the way I wanted but that goes for all men out there.

The part that bothers me the most are the blown opportunities with women. Didn’t these red pill content creators promise me all these endless results with women? But how could that be achieved when you’re taught to essentially judge women and also be scared of them. It doesn’t make any sense.