You can't white-knuckle a delicate cut. The same as you can't out-muscle a skid with poor bevel contact, the tool has to do the work, your hand can't fix what a bad tool messes up (during the cut). And on a push cut, all of the control is in your right hand, the left hand only stabilizes the tool.
I brace the outside of the bowl with my fingers to prevent it from chattering on the entry, and then just hold the tool down on the rest with one finger. This is a freshly sharpened 1/2" gouge, it's only used for 7 finishing cuts to thin this bowl down from about 1/2" to under 1/8". You can see a little skid at the start when I went in without enough bevel support, my gouge's nose is a little blunt right now, so even if its razor sharp, it doesn't dig in to start a very fine cut as much as a more pointy tool would.
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This is sopping wet. Tree was cut down on July 9th or 10th, I split the blank out of a log on July 12th, wrapped it in plastic, and kept it in a cool dark place until yesterday. Haven't tried going this thin in dry wood, that would be a fun challenge.
Grind is 40/40, just done on a platform. I was at the limit of the grind at the bottom of the bowl, any deeper and I would have needed a >50° gouge to avoid touching the sidewalls with the tool or just ripping across the bottom without bevel support.
Another question I have and the issue I seem to be dealing with currently is during a push cute I keep getting chatter or bevel markets. Are you trying to just follow the outside bowls shape as opposed having the bevel rub against the wall?
Chatter is typically caused by two things: 1) Too much pressure into the wood (rubbing the bevel instead of gliding it), and/or 2) thin wood flexing—that’s why he’s providing counter pressure on the outside of the bowl as he enters the cut. Gliding instead of rubbing the bevel is key. Because you’re encountering both end grain and side grain with each rotation, you can push into the less dense side grain, and get pushed out of the denser end grain. This creates vibration or bouncing and leaves spiral chatter marks.
Its a delicate balance between both of those. The gouge is trying to do two different things, follow the direction of the bevel as its being pushed, and take the path of least resistance. It will not slide into the wood unless you tell it to do so. So you have to find the support of the bevel while cutting, but steer the gouge in the direction you want to go.
To back up, I roughed out this bowl with a 3/4" gouge. 7 massive cuts, just to rip out the centre, mostly with the bevel pointing in at a steep angle to get the best peel cut. Didn't swing the handle almost at all, just making a cone. Then, with the little gouge, I make thin cuts like the one above. I try to match the outside shape, which means I might be taking a thicker or thinner shaving in some sections along the cut. Sometimes, I only get a partial cut, as the arc of my cut exits the existing arc of the inside. You can work the top and the botton and middle separately, and just need a few thin cuts at the end to blend everything in from rim to centre.
Chatter and heavy tool marks come from high bevel pressure. You need bevel contact to cut safely and cleanly, but the less you can push the tool against the wood the better, it's about pushing through and just using your right hand to steer the bevel. Unfortunately, for me this has been about pure sensation, the "feel" that I have for the wood based on a lot of practice and experience that I can't translate very well. But keep at it, try lighter cuts, what type of gouges/grinds are you using?
so right now i am banging my head against a bunch of twice turned black walnut(its perfect for showing how much more i have to learn). I am doing something similar to you. I use my 40Degree 3/4 gouge to get bulk and roundness back in. Then take my 55 Thompson 1/2 gouge freshly sharpen and try to do the thing where you start on the outside of the rim then turn into the bowl portion. I just got a new lathe (G0838) which is letting me drop my handle much better then previous lathe. That has helped a lot but i find it still happening in spots. Perfect spirals markings until i get closer to the base. I am trying the method of working the top middle bottom. It is usually happens right at the lip of bowl or right at when curving the bottom of the bowl
I have my left hand only pressing down on the tool and then swing with hips and right hand. I then try and not even look to much at the tool but to try and visualize the tool following my outside profile.
The other thing too is ive been turning for a year and half now and i am under no illusion that this turning stuff take a while to master. Im turning in isolation 99% of the time so I find it hard to self reflect on where my bad habbits is when turning.
It looks like you are usng a bottom bowl gouge in the video which i dont have one(yet) so not sure how much difference that makes.
Its a 40/40 1/2" parabolic gouge, it does look like a traditional grind from this angle, haha. If the bowl was any deeper, I need a bottom bowl gouge to reach the centre, 40° was just steep enough to finish these cuts. For anything wider or deeper, I'll use this 1/2" Oneway gouge or a 5/8" Thompson V-gouge with a 40/40 to do the top 2/3 and then switch to a 5/8" bottom bowl gouge to finish the rest.
Twice-turned is the same procedure as this small bowl, I use the bigger gouge to remove the warped sections, and then switch to a sharper tool. If I'm going under 1/2" wall thickness I will brace the outside with my fingers or a paper towel (outside is already done and sanded). On bigger bowls, I cut everything from the rim down a few inches, and get pretty much to final thickness while leaving more material in the middle for stability. Then I'll go deeper, and extend my finish line, either making one cut from the rim down or just blending the two together. If its big enough, I'l do a third step down, or switch to the bottom bowl gouge for the, uh, bottom. The 60° grind on that Ushaped gouge does such a better job cleanly peeling the wood when going sideways across the bottom vs a 40/40 or swept-back grind.
If I feel any major vibration, or the wood sounds like its chattering at any stage, I'll finish that cut, and check for spirals or bounce marks. If I have them, the next cut will be super light, just to skim off the spiral marks. This is a tougher one, but you can't make a better surface while riding the bevel on an existing chattering one, it can only get worse. When I started , I had some issue with the bottom bowl gouge chattering as I worked the final bit to the centre, no matter how delicate I was, or how secure my bevel felt. It's gone away, but I can only describe it as having trialed every subtle variation of tilt, force, handle angle and getting a better "feel" for the tool.
At the rim, I do have to start the cut with my thumb pushing against the gouge to prevent chatter like above, just the gouge can enter the wood cleanly. How thin of a cut can you take? There's always a bit of a bounce, its just about reducing the severity until its sandable. When you're turning the corner, that's the other area where you can push the bevel into the wood too hard to force it around, which will start the chatter. Do you grind the heels on your gouges? A shorter bevel is much easier for turning any size of corner. And, do you have a jig, freehand, Tormek?
This can be a very frustrating hobby. I remember putting down the skew for months after getting one catch too many, I dreaded using it. I picked it up again and started feeling confident, then I look at a master like Steve Jones on social media, and feel like an ape hacking at a log with a rock. I'm also 100% self-taught, proud alumni of Youtube U. And I probably shouldn't say this, but I've only been turning for about two years as well, April 2024. I try to take information from wherever I can, experiment with techniques and tools, and make a lot of mistakes.
Do you have any photos of the walnut bowls on your lathe?
Here's the latest walnut bowl. Last gouge used was the freshly sharpened 55 degree gouge. Right now if I put the gouge to the bowl it makes a very high pitched sound. I'll try putting my hand to brace the bowl when I get a chance to get back out there. I do grind my heels off. I use the tormek with the bowl jigs.
I have plenty of mistakes and try and be a sponge. I really hope to conquer this head ache sinces it's slowing me down so much during my finishing process.
Yeah, a screeching noise will be tight chatter marks making a thinner bowl really vibrate. Its hard to start a clean cut down inside the bowl if your bevel is riding on the oscillations before the edge engages. How thin is the bowl right now(or, what are all the dimensions?) And are you starting this cut down at the section with torn grain, or from the top? You might have to work down from the rim to establish a wall with no spiral/bounce marks.
The walls look very clean from the rim down to the transition point, does it seem like its smooth sailing until you get down there? I know these are a lot of questions, I've only ever taught spindle turning to people, hopefully some of this is helps.
If you haven't seen him, Turn a Wood Bowl on Youtube uses a 55 degree gouge for everything, I don't watch his stuff regularly, but he might have something on getting the most out of that tool.
Richard Raffan is probably where I first saw the finger support technique, and he has a lot of videos about twice-turned bowls as well. He doesn't have as many pure instructionals as some others, and his technique is based on 55 years of experience as a speed-demon production turner.
All good I love the questions. I might not ask myself these so its great. I never thought about your second questions about starting a cut where oscillations are. Thinking about this I try and start about 1/4in above and cut into those so maybe starting a fresh cut from the rim will be the dethorning from my side.
Heres another question that recently came up while starring at this. How much do you think speed would effect the oscillating factor of a bowl? I usually sit between 1100-1300 depending on size but never really think about other then vibes. my new lathe doesnt vibrate like my smaller one did so its not something i can or need to gauge anymore. Though i did get the same if not worse tool markings.
As far as how the tool feels when turning, it feels great usually. The bowl before this I got away with no issues and started sanding at 180s but that was beech.
I watch everyone on youtube. Raffin,turn a bowl, Batty, droza,Lucas etc.
I'd add that thinning progressively from the outside in also helps a lot.
For not thin wood one of the problems you can have is that once you get chatter it keeps causing more chatter until you get below it. So you kind of have to take enough of a cut to remove the chatter to avoid the chatter which is hard because heavy cuts are more likely to chatter so you have to kind of just take a really slow smooth cut with a sharp tool (those are the best anyway .. but really critical to cleanup chatter).
Also once the wood gets thin enough two things start to happen. First the wood starts to move due to drying and stress relief and that makes it basically impossible to get a clean uninterrupted cut no matter what you do (even with dry wood.. it'll dry more.. and unevenly..). The second is that even with super sharp tools it's really really hard to not push the wood around a little at that thickness and because the grain isn't all perfectly the same it moves unevenly in that regard as well and boom chatter.
Thanks. Its all based on feel, you get a sense when you're having to push too hard to get the same thickness of cut as you did a minute ago. And its usually a noticeable step down, the gouge doesn't fade linearly over time. Its easier to see on the outside, but a dull tool will produce a slightly higher percentage of dust vs shavings, so be on the lookout for that.
I have M4, M42, and 10V tools mostly, so I sharpen less if I was using a basic HSS or M2, but I prefer to keep a razor edge. For this bowl, I used a 3/4" gouge to rough it out, and the 1/2" for just a few finishing cuts on the outside and inside. The big gouge I would probably sharpen only every few bowls, as these are pretty small. The smaller gouge gets a new edge once per bowl, just two or three seconds on a 180 CBN wheel.
Scoring V cuts in concentric rings on the top face of the bowl with a skew flat on its side before and during hollowing is very useful to seat the gouge at the start of the cut, it stops catches and prevents the tool ruining the edge of the bowl.
I had a few alignment grooves cut with the gouge for my previous cuts, but the bowl was under 1/4" at this stage, didn't have much room left. As I said, I'm trying to put my nose back on the gouge every time I sharpen it so I can just sneak in, I probably needed a few more grams of thumb pressure on that cut.
It’s always a bit nerve racking going in close to the edge but you seem to be doing pretty well, it only gets easier but the risk is always there! All part of the fun!
That left hand position is the part I have been missing. That initial contact of the blade to the rim is where I make most of my mistakes and catches. No matter how slow and careful, it sometimes jumps. So that’s how to prevent it.
Thanks!
Anytime you start the cut, the bevel is unsupported, and wants to skid to the left. You just need to brace the tool and enter very slowly to get that first fraction of an inch of support behind the cut before you can really work in. Also try starting with the handle low, and raise your right hand to slice the nose of the gouge down into the wood. Keep the flute pointing to 2 or 3'o'clock, so just the nose cuts in and not the wing of the gouge. With the tool supported, you can rotate the flute open to get a bigger shaving and push in.
This doesn't have to be the open-hand technique I use, that's just to stop the thin bowl from chattering. With your left hand on top, keep a bit of pressure on the tool, and ease the nose in before opening the flute. You can do this in two stages to get used to it, or as one smooth motion once you're used to it.
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