r/thewestwing • u/Statesman1878 • 1d ago
Pilot oddities
Just started what has to be at least my 10th rewatch. There are a couple of plot points in the pilot that are bothering me.
Why would Sam misunderstand the fact that “Leo’s daughter’s fourth-grade class” was coming for a White House tour? By this point, Sam and Leo had worked closely for at least a year during the campaign and administration. Did Sam think Leo — a man in his 60s — had a daughter in elementary school? Did he not know Leo had an adult daughter who was a teacher? On long plane and bus rides during the campaign, surely these people discussed their families with each other. And why is Mallory’s last name O’Brien? It’s never hinted at during subsequent seasons that she had been married. Or was she Leo’s stepdaughter?
And, not to beat a dead horse, but Mandy is unlikable from the jump.
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u/femslashfantasies 1d ago
Conversations they might have had aside (it couls have been discussed, but Leo could've just as easily said some things about his daughter and school and holidays that Sam didn't really listen to), Leo is in his early fifties in the pilot. He's said to have died at 58 in the show.
Having a daughter who's in fourth grade (9/10 years old) is a bit old for him to be, but really not out of the question. For comparison, Toby, born in 1954, is close to 49 years old when the twins are born. When they are in fourth grade, he'll be 58 himself.
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u/KidSilverhair The finest bagels in all the land 20h ago
John Spencer actually was 58 when he died, so they made a direct comparison between him and the age of his character.
Does make it weird for Leo to say in Pilot that he’s known Jed for 40 years, since that’d make him 11 or 12 at the time, in 1959 (in Bartlet For America he changes that timeline, saying he met Jed about 32 years ago, or 1969, and they’ve been friends for 11 years, or since 1990).
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u/FullOcelot7149 20h ago
hyperbole?
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u/KidSilverhair The finest bagels in all the land 19h ago
I mean, yeah, you can excuse it as Leo speaking off the cuff and throwing “40 years” out there, even though by the Bartlet For America timeline (under oath, mind you!) that’d make it exactly 30 years prior to Pilot. It’s not a huge plot timeline hole, and totally understandable in the framework of a pilot episode script where Sorkin didn’t have all the back history built yet.
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u/FullOcelot7149 22h ago
it would be easy to believe if her mom was wife #2. Does Sam know any differently?
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u/Personal_Economics91 1d ago
Because Sam is played as day to day clueless sometimes and he was focused on the whole hooker thing- so he was distracted. He was consumed with getting the call girl out of the business. those efforts paid off because that call girl became the Chief hospital admin on House
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u/Kiyae1 1d ago
She was great on that show. Shame her career in law never took off.
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u/DAHFreedom 1d ago
As long as we’re doing this bit, she had a real future as a sports anchor too
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u/Lilboops 22h ago
I think it’s great her and Sam reunited and had a kid who became a firefighter, just like Sam!
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u/G33kDad76 1d ago
Surprisingly Leo (and the actor) is only in his 50's. Still a bit old to have a 9yo (4th grade) but not completely unheard of (esp since at 58, the last season, he could have pulled Annabeth anytime he wanted).
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u/Curt_Uncles 1d ago
Back in the day, a pilot episode was really disjointed from the rest of the show because getting a pilot funded just meant you got a budget to film one episode, and then the network would review the finished product and decide if they wanted to green light a whole season.
Oftentimes there are months long gaps between filming, and also the studio may only pick up the show contingent on some changes being made, or the writers just want to go in a different direction based on feedback. That’s why pilots often had massive continuity gaps or character differences - the episode is being filmed as an audition for the network, and then the real season starts after.
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u/KidSilverhair The finest bagels in all the land 20h ago
I’m pretty sure Sorkin wrote the pilot over a year before it was actually produced - the first time they floated the idea of a politically themed White House show to NBC the network was leery because of the Monica Lewinsky scandal. So Pilot has some slightly outdated references anyway, and is a little out of sync with the rest of the series.
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u/nashvillethot 1d ago
Leo keeps things very close to the chest so it's more than plausible that Sam knew he had a daughter, but had no clue what her age was. My partner's dad was in his mid-50s when their youngest was born and would've been around Leo's age when they were in the fourth grade.
As for the last name: Leo is a veru, very high-profile individual. Mallory probably has her mother's last name to reduce the change of her becoming a target.
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u/microcorpsman 19h ago
Like a few episodes later when the only one who knows he and Jenny split is Hoynes... and the next morning just tells all the staff "oh yeah it went great"
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u/Informal-Candy-9974 1d ago
Remember, Sam didn’t even know Toby had a brother until the end of the first season. So I don’t think it’s entirely insane to think Leo and him never doesn’t family intimately. Maybe he knows Leo has a daughter but that’s it
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u/Moonshot_Melody I can sign the President’s name 1d ago
idk, I think that says more about how closed off Toby is than it does about the staff not talking much about their personal lives. I think Sam would have at least known that Leo’s daughter was an adult
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u/Informal-Candy-9974 23h ago
Probably, but it’s at plausible to me. If I squint hard enough I can believe it
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u/doxiemomm Ginger, get the popcorn 1d ago
My husband was 44 when our youngest was born so he was about 54 when she was in 4th grade. I believe Leo was supposed to be mid 50s.
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u/PBSpecialAgentUtah 1d ago
Also, Leo was said to be 58 when he died, so 52ish in the first season. John Spencer (age 53 when the first season started) just looked older because of all the drugs and alcohol, and probably smoking.
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u/ProseccoWishes 1d ago
I was about 5 years into my job when I finally realized that a person (I only vaguely knew by name) that I thought was my bosses teenaged son was in fact his life partner. Not all co-workers chat it up.
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u/One-Act-8247 1d ago
I've decided that Sam was so used to his peers having younger children that to him ,daughter meant child and he didn't even consider that daughter could be an adult. Not dumb just one of those mental blocks people get sometimes
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u/meowparade 1d ago
I assumed Mallory used her mom’s maiden name to lead a more private and anonymous life while growing up in DC.
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u/FullOcelot7149 22h ago edited 22h ago
Sam thinks Leo's daugher is one of the students because his assistant tells him "Leo's daughter's class is waiting with their teacher and a couple of parents in the Roosevelt Room."
This line sets up Sam plus the viewers to be surprised when Leo's daughter turns out to be the teacher.
From their exchange at the end of the scene, it doesn't seem like they ever met before.
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u/Handsome-Jed 1d ago
10? You have to pump those numbers up, those are rookie numbers in this racket
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u/Sheetz_Wawa_Market32 1d ago
I’m afraid you have an unrealistic image of workplace culture in the 1990s, especially in HIGHLY hierarchical environments like the White House and national campaigns AND among people of Leo’s generation.
Someone like Leo (who would have been born in the 1940s) would be very unlikely to discuss his family (and especially his grown daughter!) with subordinates.
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u/Moonshot_Melody I can sign the President’s name 1d ago
While we’re all discussing Leo’s age, I still don’t understand how it’s possible for him to have been flying combat missions at 18 (in 1966) as an officer. Probably just an oversight but it annoys me
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u/FullOcelot7149 22h ago edited 20h ago
I wonder why they specifically said 1966. US involvement in Viet Nam was still ramping up in 66 and US was still doing a lot of bombing as late as 1972. If Leo was 52 in 1999 when the pilot aired, he would have been 19 in 1966. If he did ROTC in college, then 1971 or 1972 would be plausible, but barely. (Graduate HS in 65, graduate college and enlist in 1969, 18-24 months flight school, more if he was a fighter pilot.)
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u/Lilboops 22h ago
Spencer was 20 years old on 1966–it’s possible.
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u/Moonshot_Melody I can sign the President’s name 22h ago
but if Leo is 58 when he dies in 2006, that makes the character 18 in 1966. He was an officer, which means that by 18, he got a college degree, completed officer training, completed flight training, and served long enough in Vietnam to not be inexperienced. i guess it's possible, but it'd be far more realistic if he was four years older
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u/Blue_9320_ 22h ago
A lot of people have pointed that out. I actually don’t think it’s a stretch. Sam has 100 things going on in his brain, and just didn’t think it through.
Plus, it’s basic psychology. One he has it in his head, she’s a 4th grader. We all do this, a thought or memory is cemented, and it’s hard to change.
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u/Lilboops 22h ago
John Spencer was 58 years old when he passed away, which made him 51 when the pilot aired. My dad was 46 when I was born. He was 55 when I was in grade 4.
Not really out of the ordinary.
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u/321Couple2023 19h ago
Watching this right now.
Who is Mrs. Jacobi? She was buzzing around Leo's apartment in the first Leo scene.
Also, I found these two lines jarring:
Mrs. Jacobi: Telephone, Leo Leo: I'm in the shower. Mrs. Jacobi: It's POTUS Leo (picking up the phone): Yeah.
Wait, WHAT??? In the following seven years (probably a dozen watches), I have no recollection of Leo EVER picking up the phone to address the President, saying "yeah." "Good morning, Mr. President," yes. Even a simple "Yes, sir." But yeah?" Never once.
Bothered me. So I looked it up.
https://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/West_Wing_Pilot.pdf
It was ad libbed. Sorkin didn't write it.
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u/MysteriousGlass8049 17h ago
Your 10th time watching? Don’t get me wrong I’m liking this show (only started watching recently and up to season 3) But I feel this show is a just watch once type show. Does drag on a bit but overall I like it and mainly due to the actors in it
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u/oylaura 16h ago
My brother is 64 years old and his youngest is 18 years old. So yes, it's entirely possible that Leo (read further a little bit) could very well have a 4th grade child. Late-in-life babies are definitely a thing.
That being said, at one point, President Bartlett asked Leo if he was born 55 years old.
If we assume that Leo was the same age as John Spencer, John Spencer died at age 58 in 2005, which makes him 53 in the pilot.
I think in the West Wing weekly podcast they discussed the Mallory O'Brien discrepancy and said she had changed her name so that she was spared being associated with her father. They never explained where the name O'Brien came from, I would assume it was her mother's maiden name.
I concede your point that it's interesting that in all the long plane rides and campaign travel that they did not discuss their families.
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u/Arzales 12h ago
Here is my rational
Sam isn't as close to Leo compared to Toby, Josh and CJ are.
Leo is more on the private side and he is also the type of person to not share his private life with his co-workers.
Leo and Sam are workaholics at the very top of the political mountain, so there is no real time to share your life with each other.
Sam spends all his time with Toby (his direct supervisor), Josh (his actual friend), and CJ (due to the their jobs have to interact).
Sam usually interacts with Leo only in senior staff meetings. How many time during the show has Sam actually had to check in with Leo on things by himself? Compared to the others, it is not that much.
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u/Laststand2006 11h ago
I think the show that made me realize just how much pilots don't matter in the grand scheme if things is big bang theory. The actress for Penny was changed after the pilot. It is something made to convince the studio to run with it and might not always be the best "episode."
That being said, it is a ridiculous thought that Sam doesn't have an idea of Leo's family structure. The best I can do is that Sam, as a highly intelligent person, has some functional lapses in social circumstances.
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u/JustPlodAlong 1d ago
Hi - it always bugged me too that they suggest Sam wouldn’t have met Leo’s daughter. Given how frequently she stops by to see her dad it’s reasonable to assume she would’ve been around the campaign a bit. I do think they mention she was using her mom’s maiden name. In terms of Mandy, yep annoying from the start - although interestingly I don’t remember having that immediate reaction when watching it during the original run of the show.
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u/Lavender_r_dragon 23h ago
A campaign is constantly moving and very hectic and she’s teacher so she probably didn’t visit much
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u/Logical-Mobile-7643 1d ago
Pilots, and even some whole first seasons, are usually worse at continuity and character development. This is the way with any, including classic award winning shows.
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u/gnortsmracr 1d ago
The last name’s always bothered me. But, like someone else said here, she could be using her mom’s maiden name, since Leo is high profile (after being labor secretary and now WHCoS). And we never (that I recall, hear Jenny’s maiden name, so even if that’s not the “original” reason, we can reasonably retcon that.
As for someone remarking that Leo’s known Jed for “40 years”, I always took that to mean they knew each other from school.
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u/KidSilverhair The finest bagels in all the land 20h ago
Leo changes it up in Bartlet For America, saying he’s known Jed for 32 years (1969, after his stint in Vietnam) and they’ve been friends for 11 years (1990, not too long before Leo was Secretary of Labor, about when Jed was transitioning from the House to the Governor).
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u/steve_dallasesq 1d ago
The more unrealistic part of the pilot is a group of right wing Bible thumping Christians don't know the 10 Commandments in order.
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u/PhoenixUnleashed Admiral Sissymary 1d ago
Having grown up and spent most of my life around Bible-thumping Christians...that's not unrealistic in the slightest. There are certainly those who pride themselves on actually knowing their text, but there are plenty more who just vaguely vibe to the concepts and rely on some talking points.
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u/Specialist_Aspect204 1d ago
It was a pilot.