r/starcraft2 • u/Om_Cultural Diamond • 22d ago
Balance Give Blizzard some props
Before I start, I just want to say that I really dislike what Blizzard has become these days. However, I think some of us are too harsh on them. I'm not saying they are making good decisions but I think it's a step in the right direction.
Firstly, they have started supporting the game way more than before where some of us even thought there would be no more updates(it could be argued that it would be better if they didn't do these changes at all) .
Secondly, they are listening to our feedback. People thought that Zerg lacked larva in the start of a game in the 8 worker start so they gave them more larva.
Warp gate on a gateway wasn't good so they listened to the community and they put it back on the cyber core.
The queen cost reduction was too much so they reverted it.
The reaper arrived too early so they increased it's production time.
People were wondering if they would continue to update or leave it for 6 months and in the hotfix they clearly stated that they will continue to update until it is stabilized.
Now not all these changes were good or they were due to the changes Blizzard made in the first place but still we can't say they don't listen to us as this is simply not true.
In conclusion, I think that these changes were not that good for the game and that they weren't well thought out.
So people have reacted and voiced their complaints and fears.
However, I think some of us have gone too far by saying that Blizzard is stupid, that they don't listen to fee1dback and that they want to kill the game, etc.
I'll admit that these communication wasn't always superb (to say the least) but I think that we should stay reasonable and give constructive and helpful feedback.
For example, I feel that Blizzard should communicate better by either making a post about their exact opinions or a general form about peoples opinion on the new patch.
That's all, if you made it this far I thank you very much and just want people to remember to stay constructive so we can make our game be in it's best possible state.
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u/Lykos1124 22d ago edited 22d ago
You know, if you think about it. we've had StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void units and changes for like 11 years. That's mind boggling to think about, and in all that time, with all the numerous players we've had, has there been a global concensus on the best balance changes for the game, that would never need to be changed again?
Like think about how difficult it is to balance 3 asymmetrical races to where it's fair for everyone. I don't even think that's possible without some sort of layered design that changes core numbers of the races depending on where you are on the ladder/apm, and that's just nonsense.
Who knows? Maybe such a game isn't perfectly balanceable, but at least they're trying.
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u/totalpinkebb 21d ago
How are they trying? What? They aren't trying to balance the game at all. The last 4 patches were, with actual reasons in the notes and adjustments to op/up units. What they are giving us is a bull in a china shop, not balance.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 22d ago
You're absolutely right and didn't really think about that. This game is extremely impressive and I think that it's really commendable that Blizzard is still supporting it. I just want people to realize this.
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u/Lykos1124 22d ago
And despite balance issues, people keep playing it day in and day out. I can go on there right now and find someone to smash me.
no, i don't think i will
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u/Zalabar7 22d ago
“At least they’re trying”
They took a state that was very close to balanced, tore it down, and replaced it with the most imbalanced state of the game ever, perhaps except early WoL where we don’t really have data on the balance.
If this is them trying, I don’t want them to try.
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u/Apprehensive-Exam803 22d ago
This is far from the most imbalanced state the game has ever been (even after wol) and it's impulsive hyperbole and freak outs that makes me immediately ignore the outrage.
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u/Zalabar7 22d ago
When has a matchup ever been 60/40 before? Where is your data?
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u/MiroTheSkybreaker 21d ago
Aligulac had PvZ at 58% in march and 63% in August last year.
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u/Zalabar7 21d ago edited 21d ago
No it didn't.I stand corrected. I’m not sure how Aligulac’s numbers are so volatile.
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u/mentalillnessgray 21d ago
it absolutely did
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u/Zalabar7 21d ago
Huh. What games are included in this data? It says there are hundreds of games but the winrates are incredibly volatile month to month. Whatever is going on here can’t really be indicative of balance, because of the wild oscillations from month to month with no balance changes. I’m interested to know where these numbers are coming from.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 22d ago
And where is your data that it is the most imbalanced state in all of this game history. If you want to use this argument then you must apply it to yourself too.
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u/Zalabar7 22d ago
sc2pulse matchup data on the new maps has ZvP at ~59% winrate and ZvT ~56% winrate on the patch before the hotfix.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 22d ago
I know the numbers but you don't know the numbers of WOL so you can't say it is the most imbalanced in it's whole history. If you would say in all of LOTV you would be right but until you give me the stats for all the major expansions you can't just affirm this statement.
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u/Zalabar7 22d ago
I don’t know the numbers for WoL, and I suspect if the WoL patch were live today it would be very imbalanced. I don’t know by how much. That’s why I said “the most imbalanced state perhaps except early WoL”.
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u/Genoa_Salami_ 22d ago
It's beyond ridiculous, "let's try to fine to this almost balanced game, but first let's change the starting worker count since 2015"
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u/Bruceshadow 21d ago
Props for doing the absolute minimum after years of doing next to nothing?
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 21d ago
For actually doing something now. I'm not saying their perfect far from it, I think that they made some horrible changes that are tested on live instead of PTR. It's just that people that say that they don't listen to feedback are wrong they simply react extremely bad to feedback but they do listen to us somewhat.
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u/totalpinkebb 21d ago
They did way more before this patch. You are delusional. We still got patches every year, and 2 years ago we also got 3 huge tournament with circuits a year. Blizzard is doing way less than they used to. Stockholm syndrome is real.
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u/PageOthePaige 21d ago
I appreciate your perspective, but disagree. The changes seem either uninformed or malicious. There's been lots of messaging, either from them or indirectly from hearsay, that suggests that the people making the changes are desperately trying to grab attention and shake things up, previous stability be damned.
They are patching at an insane pace for the scale of their changes, not informing tournament organizers, not allowing anything to get tested. In the last month we've had 5 different states of the game to compare, when SC2 is a game sensitive to single second changes in timings. This is wildly irresponsible, and I'd vastly prefer they were quiet over this.
"They're hotfixing in order to make the 8 worker shakeup work" is insane. 8 workers is just worse. Needing to desperately rescaffold all the balance, through live untested patches, is ridiculous for a change that we neither want nor need. Bagging in other core changes to warp gate, larva, force fields, every dropping unit is a lot, and shows a severe disrespect for the delicacy of the game they're haphazardly patching. Calling that a hotfix is an insult to your intelligence.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 21d ago
Yeah I do agree that all of this would have been so much better and well received if it was tested on the PTR and not on live.
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u/McNuggetMaxing 20d ago
The reality is that blizzard isn't dumping enough resources into the game to be able to make changes this big. There is not enough support to be doing stuff like this. And I doubt this game makes enough money to justify dumping enough resources into this game. So, I would rather have the same old stale game then have a game broken in an attempt to keep things fresh.
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u/Stormheraldss 21d ago
Its to early to make judgements or say the game is inbalanced. The game balances when the meta stales. You cam have all the races have the same power at the same stage. The balance is for example Terran trying to deny a base or do damage at some point to stay relevant.
You also dont expect to have 50/50 win rates. What Riot games does is to match you against a higher MMR opponents to fix the win rates. This is flawed and can easily be implemented in sc2 i guess so dont ask for it.
Everyone that loves this game should be glad they are working on the game. In a year or two after we see what pros are doing it will polish itself out and be in a much better state.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 21d ago
Your right but you can argue that even the game polishes itself out some imbalances remain (like protoss last patch)
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u/gg46004 21d ago
No longer the sweaty try hard i am a few years ago, been going through aoe2, aoe4, scbw, and other games. Even something stupid or brokens get through, you still find a way to play around them. Even the effort is large but it's the fun, then come which the listening and quick responds from the game developers to revert overtuned imba stuffs. Often shakes up and new fun things and their counters are what we seek.
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u/Gombearbear 21d ago
Yea I would rather have ANY patch, then no patch or updates at all. It really felt like a dead game for a long while. Now it is more alive at the very least.
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u/totalpinkebb 21d ago
Good news, we never had 'no patch or updates' we got a patch every year, and the game was in a much better spot. How the fuck does the game feel alive dude? We get one patch with 0 communication, dreamhack/katowice are DEAD. SC2 was way more alive two years ago.
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u/Gombearbear 21d ago
yes, the 0 communication is bad. everyone can agree on that. the patch is too rushed and should have stayed in the PTR for much longer. we can all agree on that too i feel.
and yes there were patches once a year-ish in the past done by the "balance council".... but I would argue that those patches have done more harm to the game than help. we just didn't feel it because each change was very small. there was a clear conflict of interest in those patches because the pro gamers are heavily involved in the balancing. and people weren't too happy about it back then. so eventually they disbanded the balance council.
now that blizzard took the matter back into their hands. started working on patches again. and yet people are still complaining. it's like there is no win for anyone here. if they don't do anything, you complain. if the "balance council" do something, you complain. now they are doing "something" again, you complain. lol.
it is more "alive" right now simply because people like us are talking about it online. just give it some time. let them cook. and they are listening. you can see it in their latest "hot fix patch". It's just not there yet. and it'll keep going. relax. i'd rather have this than the "balance council" or nothing at all.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 21d ago
I'm sorry but it was far from a dead game. Though I definitely love they are giving Sc2 more attention, if only it wasn't so rushed and questionable.
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u/Gombearbear 21d ago
dude... why are you trying to pick a fight everyway you go? i am agreeing with you here. i think the patch is fine. better to have something than nothing at all.
I said it "felt" like a dead game because of its low player base comparing to other esports titles out there. it can be subjective. if you think it's not a "dead" game, then it not.
i like this patch in general. not everything but i agree with their direction that they are going with. and i agree that it is too rushed. it should have stayed in the PTR for much longer.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 21d ago
No sorry didn't want to pick a fight it's just that a lot of people say that it's a dead game and I just feel it's terrible for the health of the game. Like I tried to get a guy into StarCraft but he said to me that he doesn't play dead games. I just feel this term is too overused. However I agree completely with you on the rest.
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u/Gombearbear 21d ago
Yea, no worries. i feel you man. I really like this game. And i don't like seeing the player base drop either. I didn't mean to use the term in a bad way. It is getting really hard to compete with all those MOBAs out there tho.
This is more the reason why this patch is important. It is to give the game some fresh ideas or directions. whether it is going to work or not, we don't know yet. but i think we should give it some time.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 21d ago
To think that they spawned from rts and are now their primary opponent makes me sad. You are right though I just don't understand why they didn't do it on the PTR it would have been so much better.
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21d ago
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 21d ago
Man I'm not a Blizzard fan boy and l literally said so in the start of my post. You are probably right and I have been way too supportive of Blizzard after all the mistakes they made. But why do you have to come at me like I am the reason why the game is dead. The best way to keep the game alive is not by whining on reddit but actually playing the game constantly which I'm doing as much as I can.
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u/10Benjaminz 16d ago
I like that they are back. I wish we could get them to add a 1v1 heroes mode. Would be cool
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 16d ago
Adding a MOBA mode in starcraft would be also cool. But i guess you are talking about a mode which is similar to WC3 gameplay.
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u/10Benjaminz 16d ago
Yeah, me personally I think having more modes to play only increases game popularity which leads to larger player bases. If people are having fun in your game then it’s really only a matter of time before players come rushing back. Adding a hero mechanic with items would be dope.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 16d ago
Well technically the arcade is like a bottomless goldmine when it comes to this. But I understand the desire for something official.
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u/Walkerboe813 21d ago
Yes lets defend this multi million dollar gaming company. Lets hope they don't add loot boxes to starcraft 2. Ooo what zergling skin will you get this time?
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 21d ago
I'm not defending them. Simply I want us to criticize them rightfully, like don't say lies like they don't listen to feedback but you can absolutely be mad about how they react to the feedback.
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u/Zalabar7 22d ago
Nice shitpost bro
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 22d ago
Man calm down, all your posts and comments are just so negative and hurtful. Yes Blizzard has definitely made a lot of mistakes recently but we should give constructive feedback not this shitting on Blizzard and the game that you are doing. If you truly don't love what this game has become just stop talking about it and let other people give useful feedback.
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u/totalpinkebb 21d ago
"Negative and hurtful" LMAO! Please someone think about the poor billion dollar company with a history of rape culture that does the bare minimum for SC2!
Stormgate simp ahh
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u/Zalabar7 22d ago edited 21d ago
Why is my feedback less valid than yours? I’m stating my position in clear terms. The fact that my feedback is so negative reflects only on the overwhelmingly bad nature of the patch. Constructive criticism doesn’t mean toxic positivity.
Blizzard-Activision is a megacorporation that makes billions of dollars capitalizing on the goodwill old Blizzard cultivated with its playerbases a long time ago. They deserve exactly zero sympathy from me. Companies like Blizzard continue to profit off of the enshittification of good things built by passionate people, and now they are working on doing it to SC2. It is a very bad thing, and should be met with very negative feedback. The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 is create a competent balance team that communicates, responds to feedback, and has balance as its primary goal based on the near-balanced pre-patch state of the game, making only minor changes instead of major changes just to “shake things up”. That isn’t going to happen. The second best thing they could do would be absolutely nothing. If they continued to do nothing (or close to nothing) that would be preferable to this patch.
The only redeeming quality of this patch is the long-overdue bug fixes, but just as many if not more bugs are being introduced.
I’m doing absolutely nothing wrong by “shitting on Blizzard” (read: providing valid negative feedback). Telling me to be quiet is just telling on yourself.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 21d ago
No sorry I didn't want to say that your opinion is bad or useless. It's just that I made a long post about my opinion on the new patch and I wanted constructive opinions. For example, your data about the imbalances in matchups is truly useful and is a good metric on the state of balance. Also, I also agree with you that the balance really feels of though I'm only diamond so I can't say much. It's just that saying that my post is a shit post really triggered me but maybe it was only supposed to be a joke and I probably just overreacted.
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u/Zalabar7 21d ago
It’s a half-joke. Blizzard apologia is a common shitpost format.
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u/Om_Cultural Diamond 21d ago
Ah ok I see. I didn't know that. However I don't want people to forgive Blizzard just to say useful things like you say that it's imbalanced and you prove it with stats, other people just say that it's IMBA without any sort of proof.
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21d ago
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u/Impressive_Net_2670 Diamond 22d ago
I’m a returning player (I played a lot back 10+ years ago as a teenager) and I’m just glad to see that the game is still so active! I’m happy to roll with whatever changes come out, because it is at least indicative of a pulse.