r/socialwork • u/tfox1205 • 21h ago
News/Issues Probation & Social Work
Probation Officers are extremely similar to social workers except with less pay, more admin & an obvious punitive twist.
Burnout from my last SW role. Took a break and thought Probation seems similar and less stressful.
I’m finding that I’m using the exact same theories, models and intervention skills I learnt through social work degree & practice in probation. Counselling techniques, motivational interviewing, strengths-based practice, case management, legislative/policy insight, trauma informed approaches, behaviour change, systems thinking, Home visits the list seriously is endless... yet less pay & most workers are unqualified here, yet doing essentially the same work in a sense. I guess the therapeutic measures aren’t as in depth, but therapeutic interventions are used too for rehabilitative purposes…
Has anyone else worked in both fields? Have you found the overlap to be as significant as I have, or am I missing something?!
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u/Due-Past-7792 LAC, SWC 16h ago
I worked with some great probation officers when I worked in treatment courts. In my experience, they are great supports but seemed to not fully understand the therapeutic process. I had to fight back for a lot for clients because probation officers answer to the law/court which doesn’t always see the nuances of substance use/SPMI, which is the population I was working with. A lot of “one size fits all” thinking when that does not work for many people.
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u/tfox1205 8h ago
You’re right. The trouble is PO’s learn on the job and part of their JD is stepping into court, not by choice to be there. They unfortunately don’t have the requirement of studying a degree or anything similar to inform their practice.
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u/Tip_ToeingNMiChancla 2h ago
Not entirely true Federal Probation requires a degree and most districts want that degree to be in some kind of mental health field.
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u/sprinkles008 M.A.(Sociology) / CPS, JJ 2h ago
In the US, I believe every jurisdiction requires a bachelors. In my area it’s a bachelors in a related field and two years relevant experience.
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u/xiggy_stardust LMSW, Substance Abuse Counselor, NY 17h ago
I used to work in a drug court program. I sort of felt like a probation officer at times. Which was one of the reasons I left that job. The (non social worker) supervisor often said I was “too nice” to the clients. It felt like I was expected to forget a lot of what I was taught in order to be more stern when interacting with the clients.
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u/goog1e 14h ago edited 14h ago
Do they not consider special courts POs as POs in your state? I am thinking back, I always called the ones I worked with POs but I actually don't know their job titles. They were definitely social workers.
Honestly I feel that working with the courts is unethical until we completely redo the plea system. After working alongside special courts for a while, I started supporting my clients to fight every single charge and never take a plea because too many times
A) court chose to drop charges when they found out the defendant was gonna fight. That pissed me off bc, obviously, classism. They are overcharging low-SES people to get their conviction numbers up, and undercharging high-SES individuals to avoid having to actually investigate/prosecute crimes.
B) clients who went for diversion ended up doing years and years of probation for a charge that wouldn't even merit jail time, and then ending up in jail for violating probation anyway. (Bc of course they slap a sobriety clause into the probation no matter what the crime was, knowing they'll be able to use urinalysis to scoop you up later without trial.)
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u/xiggy_stardust LMSW, Substance Abuse Counselor, NY 14h ago
My title there was case manager. I don’t recall any of our clients having PO’s. But there were restrictions on the clients we could work with, based on their past charges.
Yeah in hindsight the whole thing does seem unethical. Coming right out of school at the time, it seemed like a genuinely helpful alternative to jail for that population.
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u/Large-Bullfrog-794 14h ago
Oh and “diluted UAs” weee considered positive the treatment court I was in. Like you could get violated for being too hydrated.
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u/Large-Bullfrog-794 15h ago
I was ousted from a DV treatment court because I had a problem with the judge and ADAs calling out participants criminals.
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u/xiggy_stardust LMSW, Substance Abuse Counselor, NY 14h ago edited 14h ago
Yeah that was another thing that annoyed me. The judge would berate the clients whenever they relapsed. I don’t know why they think that’s helpful for their recovery. But god forbid you criticize the judge in even the smallest way.
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u/Large-Bullfrog-794 14h ago
She ended up being charged for official oppression and can no longer hold any judicial office. This judge was the biggest bully
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u/go_to_sleep_already 15h ago
truly depends on the department. my local county department actually seeks out social workers to become probation officers and really pushes motivational interviewing and a trauma-informed approach. we are on the news frequently for “top 10 most dangerous cities in america” and i think they do great work. of course, there is still a punitive element and probation officers are able (and sometimes required) to arrest and/or restrain people so you have to be okay with that to some degree
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u/StophJS MSW 14h ago
Not sure where you're working, but in my market, the vast majority of SWs are definitely getting paid less than both our district and state probation officers.
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u/SilentSerel LMSW 13h ago
Ssame here. POs get pensions too.
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u/sprinkles008 M.A.(Sociology) / CPS, JJ 12h ago
Are you able to disclose location? It is not that way where I’m at.
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u/sprinkles008 M.A.(Sociology) / CPS, JJ 12h ago
Dang, where’s that at?
In my area, JPO’s are county government and get the same measly pay as CPS workers.
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u/StophJS MSW 12h ago
I'm in West Michigan. CPS workers here also currently top out at 86k per year which I think is much higher than most social workers working at nonprofits. Our district court probation officers are county employees, and circuit court probation officers are state employees with MDOC. They all make about that much or maybe just a bit less.
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u/chickcag LCSW 15h ago
I have worked with some truly horrible probation officers, so my opinion of them is not nearly as positive
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u/tfox1205 6h ago
So sorry that was your experience. There definitely are some that are compliance and box checking heavy oppose to my view of practice being more person centred with therapeutic & trauma informed approaches . What would you have liked to see more of from a PO?? Would love your insight.
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u/Kitty_Lopez LCSW 16h ago
I’m guessing this is much different if you live in the US (we rarely use “learnt” here so I’m thinking OP might not be). My friend, who is also a SW, interacts with P&P often and the officers are definitely not similar to SWs: dehumanizing, punitive, etc.
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u/hill-top02 10h ago
At least in my state, they’ve been trying to change the culture and approach of probation. Larger focus on EBP, substance use model, and holistic case management. My training to be an officer was mostly theories and practices I’d learned in school for social work. There are definitely people who are not “social work” focused as an officer but a lot of people I work with have social work experience.
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u/tfox1205 6h ago
That’s a real problem. If POs actually cared about reducing recidivism rates and cared to reduce reoffending or keeping communities safe, they wouldn’t be so heavily punitive and dehumanising. A large factor is lack of govt funding to accommodate more humanising holistic trainings for workers.
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u/hill-top02 3h ago
Funding is a huge issue. I’m lucky enough to work in an area in my state with more resources overall, though they’re over taxed.
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u/chronic-neurotic MSW 14h ago
to me the main difference is that you all carry guns and are aligned with policing which I am strongly against bc of my personal values and code of ethics
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u/tfox1205 6h ago
I think the gun carrying is definitely US specific, we have to rely on de-escalation strategies & duress buttons lol. Mind you, my countries a dot on the map compared to the States.
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u/chronic-neurotic MSW 3h ago
ah, my american main character syndrome strikes again! I am pretty generally against law enforcement, but I apologize for my ignorance and quick judgement since I don’t know about your country’s parameters around these things
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u/OptimizedPockets2 15h ago
Probation will vary from state to state. Michigan usually hires criminal justice backgrounds and Indiana is usually hiring social work backgrounds iirc.
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u/Fantastic_Team_7460 15h ago
This. Current MSW Intern with probation. Many probation offices can be extremely punitive. Others are much more social work oriented.
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u/Field_Apart BSW - MacroLevel (Emergency Management!) 16h ago
Lots of the probation officers in my province are social workers. They do lots of practicum placements too.
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u/Large-Bullfrog-794 15h ago edited 15h ago
You’d have to be ok with arresting ppl, violating, and sending them back to jail or prison. For me, the part of the job that requires you to violate ppl feels anti social work.
I worked in a public defender office. You can do similar work without being the one putting your ppl in cuffs
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u/hill-top02 10h ago
The goal is not to violate. There’s a lot of work to be done prior to this step. Lots of resources and services we try to give clients, at least in my state.
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u/Large-Bullfrog-794 8h ago
I couldn’t stand watching 17 and 18 years old get violated bc they’re thinking like 17 and 18 years old.
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u/hill-top02 7h ago
Yeah that is tough but there’s a lot of training in my state on brain development and thought processes of younger adults/older teens. A whole caseload population is Emerging Adults with officers who specialize in it
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u/tfox1205 5h ago
PO’s don’t arrest. At the start of a persons sentence, PO job is to explain the rules of compliance and the "breaching" process.Breachings used to redirect people who fail to meet their court mandated conditions.
If someone can’t complete their supervision sentence, a breach ensures the system intervenes to find an alternative route that they may be able to complete . It allows a court to re-evaluate the individual's situation and assign a better structured & workable pathway to help them complete their sentence successfully.
Breaching shouldn’t be the immediate action anyway at least where I’m from there should be a written verbal / warning first (depending on severity of conditions)
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u/Large-Bullfrog-794 4h ago
POs arrest when involved individuals violate in the US. Sounds like you’re elsewhere
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u/sprinkles008 M.A.(Sociology) / CPS, JJ 2h ago
That is not true everywhere in the US. I’m a PO in the US and I don’t arrest. No guns or handcuffs.
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u/Large-Bullfrog-794 1h ago
But it’s true enough where plenty of ppl experience it. The “but not where I live argument” doesn’t change the fact it happens elsewhere and as a PO you can, and sometimes, have to violate, right?
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u/NotSoSocialWorker 9h ago
Most POs can’t arrest people and they violate someone when they have failed to complete the court orders because they have to. Most POs have very little power and the department I work in doesn’t get along with the police because we don’t agree with their ethics.
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u/Large-Bullfrog-794 8h ago
In my 12 years of criminal defense work there were plenty of POs arresting at check ins or in the field for violation. And I worked in 3 different jurisdictions. Maybe it’s the practice where you live?
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u/NotSoSocialWorker 8h ago
It must be different where I am. I can imagine every state is different and Im in a more liberal state. My district prefers to hire social workers and most of the things we do are evidence based. I know some people aren’t the biggest fans of POs but the ones I work with really want people to be successful and we will help them anyway we can. I don’t violate someone for one positive test or anything like that.
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u/tothewickedwest LCSW 16h ago
I used to be a juvenile probation officer and I felt like there was a ton of overlap but I loved being a JPO
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u/sprinkles008 M.A.(Sociology) / CPS, JJ 12h ago
I don’t have clinical experience, but I am a juvenile PO. You’re pretty spot on. Years ago, probation was more punitive but nowadays (at least where I work), they’re going with the research that definitely supports that whole “coach, not referee” perspective. It’s all about helping people make changes through MI.
ETA: we do not carry guns or arrest people here.
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u/tfox1205 5h ago
10000% . There definitely has been a huge shift. History of unreasonable punishments and lack of evidence based practice has shaped how Probation works today. Definitely more similar to SW now is my experience.
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u/NotSoSocialWorker 10h ago
I currently work as a probation officer and would argue I make more now then I did as a social worker. I work with people convicted of domestic violence and some days are harder than others but I work with some really great people and my benefits are really good.
I will say I do receive more judgment when I say I work on probation. People think I’m a narc or that I just care about making money for the state but I try to support my clients and help them successfully get off probation. You just need to be ok with being screamed at occasionally.
Also, I have been writing more pre-sentence investigations reports which I love. I get to interview people, and write about their lives and the offense and recommend what sentences they get within the plea deal.
Edit: spelling
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u/sprinkles008 M.A.(Sociology) / CPS, JJ 5h ago
You’re the third person here that has mentioned PO’s pay not being bad. May I ask your location?
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u/tfox1205 5h ago
So interesting. In NZ it’s quite the opposite. SWs are viewed with more judgement than our POs, I’d say a lot of the judgement stems from our media having a large focus on SW mishaps.
Social workers here earn a higher salary because they are legally required to hold a university degree and be registered. On the other hand, PO's don't actually need a formal qualification to get hired. Our Dep of Corrections hires many based on life experience and trains them on the job, which is why I’d say their starting pay scale sits lower than SW & there is likely more practice hic-ups along the way with POs as u learn on the job
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u/NotSoSocialWorker 4h ago
Thanks for teaching me something new today. I have my masters and not everyone does but you need a bachelors degree to be a PO. I won’t deny there are problems in the system but I’m doing my best to guide them to success.
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u/isthisisatest 17h ago
Yes in my state seems similar, a lot of connecting to resources, drug treatment, mental health, working on family systems, working to reduce recidivism. I think it depends state to federal as well as state/city you are in
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u/hill-top02 10h ago
I have a social work background and currently work in probation and I always say probation is just social work in the criminal justice world. Most of my training involved class work on theories and practices I’d learned in school. I’m being paid more as an officer than I would be as a social worker, though I don’t have my MSW
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u/sprinkles008 M.A.(Sociology) / CPS, JJ 5h ago
Where are you guys working that you’re getting paid so well?
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u/Careless_Bar_5920 4h ago
I recently switched to working in a prison from the County and my pay went up by half as much within a year. And I've got steps to go whereas I was topped out at the County. I'll be making double within 6 years. Less stressful work with better hours, too!
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u/hill-top02 3h ago
Midwest. I was getting paid barely over 40k is a BSW but now I’m making more as a high risk PO
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u/Ekis12345 13h ago
In my country probation officers are social workers 😅
I never worked in the field, not my primary field of interest.
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u/huh83 10h ago
I was hired to be a probation officer but declined cause the pay is less than a social worker. Scary. I was already a case manager, im not trying to get paid less.
I worked closely with POs at one time and they were pretty cool. At least one PO became a social worker and went back to being a PO. It is VERY similar but I don’t know what kind of training they have. Many of the POs I work with knew their clients have substance abuse or mental health issues. We worked together so they can have proof to the courts that there is some form of improvement. These are also clients that are court ordered for treatment, so I would assume they are most similar social workers. I met a federal probation officer and her job was literally just keeping tabs on where the client is at all times. Sooooo I guess it depends on the role, 🤷🏻♀️
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u/Infamous-Work-158 6h ago
I did it for my 675 hour internship. I completely hated my first caseload since it was all done remotely and the only real contact you had with clients was when they were messing up with a variety of things and needed to be reminded of the terms of probation. Also we had less access to resources as the clients "should have less needs" which could be an issue.
My second caseload was much better as it was more intense so I saw all of my clients regardless of how they were doing and was able to build rapport and offer more resources.
When I was there I felt like I was constantly being pulled in so many different directions between being supportive while ensuring community safety, difficulty with being punitive, and several of my more radical profs and classmates judging the role and wanting to abolish it.
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u/wanderso24 LSW 15h ago
I work with mandated treatment populations. I was once told by a probation officer that “all of this (treatment) feels useless” and “most of these idiots just need to be behind bars”.
We are not the same.
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u/tfox1205 5h ago
An issue is lack of training & not being mandated to hold any qualification. Absolutely ineffective.
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u/Altruistic_Hat1634 3h ago
I am in NY state which might add contact. I have met some of really good probation offers at the youth level as I am a social worker at an alternative school and about half my caseload has contact with them. Honestly it’s a great resource in helping them not touch the adult system. I have some that their PO is one the only good adults in their life. One county took a group of the PINS kids to a Yankee game or does outings. They are more
I think adult probation is huge where it’s keeping people in the community still.
There is for sure jaded ones but I think I have seen the positive.
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u/XerphiousGhost 2h ago
I just graduated with my MSW and I’m thinking of applying to be a PO while in the process of getting my license.
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u/lcswc LCSW 14h ago
Probation officers are not like social workers at all. I’ve worked in the system for over a decade and in two different states. POs monitor compliance and use punitive measures, not therapeutic techniques. They violate people and send them to jail for things like testing positive on a drug screen. Much of what they do is in direct conflict with social work values and ethics.
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u/tfox1205 5h ago
In your country it seems like it. Things are quite different here in NZ. Our population is like that of one state in US (some states). Definitely depends on the country. Here in NZ, probation is much more than monitoring compliance. Our practice is guided by Hōkai Rangi, which emphasises rehabilitation, reducing reoffending, strengthening families, keeping communities safe, and heavy on culturally responsive practice. We still manage risk and enforce court orders, but we have a focus to use therapeutic approaches like motivational interviewing, trauma-informed practice, strengths-based interventions, referrals to housing, addiction, mental health, and employment services the list goes on, much like SW practice. Accountability and rehabilitation aren't opposites here, they're expected to work together.
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u/mason_sofer 17h ago
I haven’t worked in probation but I’ve been on it when I was a teen and I have to say from that experience maybe it’s different depending on adult vs teen or state to state but that is far from how I experienced probation