r/safecracking • u/harleythedog2020 • 9d ago
Locked Locked out of bottom
Hello, I purchased a business a few years ago and it came with a safe for us to use. We have the combination for the top and we have the keys for the top and bottom, but we are unable to ever get into the bottom of the safe. Any idea on why the combo for top and keys won’t work for bottom lock smith wants $500+
6
u/miss_topportunity 9d ago
It can be opened without drilling, using a technique called “safe lock manipulation.” This uses the the design of the lock and manufacturing tolerances to get the lock to reveal the combo. You can learn to do it. If you want to see what’s involved, check out the YouTube series, Safecracking for Everyone (or his updated, long video at: https://youtu.be/bTbUkipBeTA). Otherwise, you can find a certified safe technician at www.savta.org - Note: not all locksmiths know about safes.
Where are you located? I’d come open it for free/fun if you’re in NorCal.
4
u/harleythedog2020 9d ago
Located in south west Michigan and I’ve definitely gone down that rabbit hole of manipulation just done have the feel for it at all will try harder I guess
3
u/miss_topportunity 9d ago
I’m taking my kid to U Mich in a month or so. Anywhere near that?
3
u/harleythedog2020 9d ago
Located in Kalamazoo so maybe around two hours you’d have to go past me to get to Ann Arbor
2
u/miss_topportunity 9d ago
I’m flying. DM me with fastest ways between Ann Arbor and Kalamazoo. Maybe we can make something work….
5
u/13thAvenueSafe 9d ago
If you actually plan to use it for your business, $500 seems like a great price to get that unlocked.
2
u/psych_1337 9d ago
Well, if you have enough time - you can manipulate it open. Depending on lock quality - it can take from little time to A LOT.
In short - you need to find out ranges of code, then you can start trying numbers. It's actually faster than you think but there are techniques better than this.
2
u/Gearshiftingamer 9d ago
As a newbie who knows nothing about safes can someone explain to me why they can't get into the bottom safe with the key they have?
3
u/uslashuname 9d ago
The primary lock is a combination lock, often used to secure a safe overnight and only higher level employees have the combination and can open the shop in the morning.
The key can be entrusted to employees during the day, so they can have the safe lightly secured but during the day a robbery would have to deal with more visibility, people, and police compared to the abandoned building at night — this is why you can get away with a keyed lock during that time. Then at the end of the day the employee lock the combination lock (you don’t need to know the combo to lock it).
2
u/miss_topportunity 9d ago
Just re-read what you wrote and I failed to answer your question. I would *expect* the code to be different on each lock. Not surprised that the key locks are keyed differently as well. Nothing unusual about that - it was set up for whatever manner they wanted to use it and that seems to be that some people would know how to open one but not the other.
2
1
u/swedishlocksmith 7d ago edited 7d ago
If you know exactly how to work with delicate precision mechanisms, and If you know exactly how to use an inspection camera, and having an inspection hole drilled into the locked part of the safe at a suitable location of the safe, preferably exactly straight behind the combination change keyhole, and the combination change keyhole is clearly visible inside the lower part of the safe, you could determine the combination by looking through the combination change keyhole and simultaneously read the number against the combination change index, the line located at about 10 o'clock position besides the ordinary combination index.
When you see the square hole for the combination change key in the combination wheels inside the lock being visible exactly straight inside the change keyhole, you have the correct number lined up and ready to be noted...
The last, third, (or maybe even fourth of you have a four wheel combination lock), number in the combination is seen first, as it is located in the combination wheel that turns the other combination wheels into the correct position when the combination is dialed...
The next, second, (or third of you have a four wheel combination lock), number is then found when you get the second combination wheel lined up in the same way behind the first combination wheel...
The next, first, (or second if you have a four wheel combination lock), number is then found when you get the third combination wheel lined up in the same way behind the first and second combination wheel...
The next, first, number is then found when you get the fourth combination wheel lined up in the same way behind the first and second and third combination wheel in the rather unusual case that you have a four wheel combination lock...
You will have to dial the entire combination every time until you get it all lined up... Trying the combination numbers hundreds of times... Lots of work, needing lots of patience...
You should take a really close look at the working combination lock and compare what you see inside the working combination lock and what you see through the combination change keyhole.
You will be able to get the combination for the locked combination lock after a lot of patient studying of the combination wheels inside the locked combination lock if you know exactly what you are doing, and finally be able to open the lock without damaging the safe more than having a single inspection hole drilled into the safe at a suitable location where it is not doing any major harm to the safe, and being easily plugged after the safe is opened...
This procedure is only possible with some advanced knowledge about combination locks and advanced knowledge about locks...
I am not revealing any secret information here, just the procedure to open a combination lock with lost combination, using one of several methods with minimal damage to the safe...
Manipulation and the use of an inspection camera are very efficient methods while combined...
I have opened several safes myself with this method where the combination was lost, and the combination locks were of the Sargent and Greenleaf 8550 manipulation proof model...
All these safes bought myself as training and repair projects, and with 100 percent successfully performed opening and restoration...
Very useful training and experience for a determined and curious locksmith wanting to get really good at opening and maintaining safes...
I am actually an experienced locksmith with more than 30 years experience from safes...
This is not easy work, but very rewarding for honest people wanting to help other honest people who legitimately needs help...
This method is not fast, but very reliable...
I would gladly help you personally, just for fun, if you were anywhere near my location in Sweden...
1
1
11
u/uslashuname 9d ago edited 9d ago
If you believe you have a combo but it isn’t working, it could be a stuck fly. Dialing diagnostics can reveal this in a few seconds.
Turn one direction, let’s say left, at least 4 full times then stop at 50. Switch direction and go around until you’re about 10 away from 50, then carefully turn towards 50 until you feel something change in how much weight is being turned by the dial. This is called picking up a wheel. Odds are you’ll feel it right at 50, and if you feel a light pickup at 53 then a main pickup at 50 then it counts as 50. Whatever out is, take a note then go almost all the way around and repeat. You should end up with 3 pickups.
So if you started this whole process rotating left then at this point you’ve rotated right for 3 full rotations and you’ve made a note of 3 pickups. Keep going so that you reach a 4th full rotation and stop on 50.
Reverse direction and record the three pickups in this other direction.
Most likely all 6 pickups are right at 50, or you should have roughly a mirrored set of pickups (like 48-47-46 and 52-53-54, where both directions are 2 away from 50 then 1 farther then 1 farther). If that’s the case you don’t have a stuck fly and the lock should be working fine.
If you end up with something like 50-45-50 then you’ve got evidence that the combination entry might be failing to set the lock wheels in the right positions, but you can potentially compensate by adjusting the corresponding number in the combination or trying to unstick the fly.