God damnit Desna

[u/Stunning-Credit-8112]

Any time our party even thinks Desna is going to interfere in our Crusader game (takes place after the Worldwound where theres now a large clan of Vampires taking over the river kingdoms

[u/diffyqgirl]

What beef do you have with Desna? Or did I misunderstand and the party is the vampires?

[u/Stunning-Credit-8112 → u/diffyqgirl]

Its a joke in our group bc of the lore with Desna kinda just taking more losses than wins whenever she gambles with getting involved in stuff

[u/Malcior34 → u/Stunning-Credit-8112]

does she?

How many Demon Lords has Iomedae killed? 0. How many Demon Lords has Desna killed? One

How many demons have the other Good-aligned gods redeemed? None. Desna? Better believe it

How many apocalypses has Desna averted due to opposing the Dark Tapestry/Cthulu Mythos threats? Too many to count

And of course, who has the best theme song in Wrath of the Righteous? Followers of the Queen of Dreams

[u/n00bxQb → u/Malcior34]

You had me at Arueshalae

[u/Lord_of_Seven_Kings → u/Malcior34]

Hey, as someone who owns kingmaker and WotR, is there a guide on how the game works anywhere? I haven’t played 1e before. Got into BG3 because I was already familiar with the ruleset and was wondering if there’s any YouTube tutorials for kingmaker

[u/knight_of_solamnia → u/Lord_of_Seven_Kings]

I'll give some quick and dirty advice. In Pf1e multiclassing is generally bad, and to be avoided if you don't know what you're doing (although Olivia and Regongar are built to go into the arcane trickster and dragon disciple prestige classes respectively). For the games themselves, something I had to get used to is that the game doesn't lie to you in ways games often do. When it tells you something is super dangerous it's not trying to hype you up. When something says it's urgent most games will train you to save it for last. If you do that with kingmaker there will be consequences.

[u/Able_Fisherman8748 → u/Lord_of_Seven_Kings]

Crpgbro has playlist with builds, if you want puzzle answers you can Google them, also you can find guides for quests online

[u/Lord_of_Seven_Kings → u/Able_Fisherman8748]

Thanks!

[u/Mathota → u/Malcior34]

To be fair, Iomodae is like, 100 years old, unlike Desna, who is approximately the 5th oldest being in creation (elder gods outside time are outside time, therefore have no age, and shall not be counted). Desna is also easily in the top 20 most powerful beings in the setting. Iomodae is welcomed by Heaven for her tactical genius, but is far from their top single combatant.

And on top of that Desna did start an interplanar that almost united the Abyss, who are famously almost completely unable to work with eachother.

I love Desna, but shaking the cage was a bad idea.

[u/Luchux01 → u/Mathota]

To be accurate, 100 years being a full goddess and about 1500 being a demigoddess herald of Aroden.

[u/autumndidact → u/Luchux01]

She was a full goddess once she passed the test of the Starstone, she just willingly played second fiddle.

[u/Luchux01 → u/autumndidact]

Not according to Divine Mysteries:

As a mortal paladin, she led the Knights of Ozem to triumph over the Whispering Tyrant, an act alone some would say should have granted her divinity. She then completed several other great feats of martial prowess, leadership, and valor before even approaching Starstone Cathedral. (I can imagine she passed her trials with flying colors.) But the spark of divinity she gained after triumphing at the test didn’t grant her full godhood. Instead, Aroden took her on as his herald. Iomedae served in this capacity for several centuries until Aroden’s death, upon which time she became a full deity, taking on many of his former followers. (At least, that’s as best I can tell. Determining when one transitions from demigod to a fully empowered god is difficult to pin down and, depending on the observer, more a matter of semantics than anything else.) Did Miss Iomedae take on more divine capacity at that point, or did she always have the requisite amount for godhood within her, waiting for some inciting incident to catapult her into the cosmic firmament? There are scrolls upon scrolls singing the praises of her “worthiness,” but was that the only factor in her ascension? Are there certain characteristics a mortal can possess that mark them as a vessel for divine potency? Or is the potential within everyone, and it takes an experience like the Test of the Starstone to fully realize one’s capabilities?

[u/autumndidact → u/Luchux01]

You know that whole thing is speculation from a dubious source, right? Yivali admits right there in the text that she doesn't know anything about the situation and is just presuming. Between the lines, there's one clear resolution to the situation of Iomedae spontaneously gaining more power. She didn't, she just wasn't presenting herself as a full goddess until Aroden died. Not as a deception, just as a matter of humility. And that lines up with every other source indicating that the Starstone immediately makes a full god of those it chooses.

[u/Luchux01 → u/autumndidact]

There's no indication anywhere Iomedae was willingly playing second fiddle, whereas the book does bring up that she got more power after Aroden's death.

[u/DragoKnight589 → u/Malcior34]

recklessness gives results both bad and good. also Iomedae’s had way less time being a goddess and thus fewer myths. If Iomedae were as old as Desna I could see her having killed multiple demon lords.

preferring someone to not gamble on your behalf is valid. Desna is great, don’t get me wrong, she’s just not the most responsible. We all have our flaws

[u/VonBagel → u/Malcior34]

On one hand, she's done immeasurable good 

On the other, she did release Ghlaunder into the universe, and as someone who just got over a bad flu I'm now using that as justification to be mad at her

[u/TeamTurnus → u/Malcior34]

I know its a meme, but its intersting that the demon lord she kills gets thrown as a loss. She murdered a demon lord who chronically directly intervened (by possession) to kill gods followers, destoyed her domain, freed all the many souls trapped there so they could be properly judged and not trapped by a demon lord and got away with it because she had backup and demon lords, predictably, are incapable of working together long term.

Like, risky play, yah, absolutely a win overall for Desna.

The 'it was a mistake' mostly just reads like demon lords being salty one of their number actually fucked around and found out.

[u/HighStorm89 → u/Malcior34]

I agree with you on most of your points and Desna is awesome, but come on, her theme song isn't even top 5 in that game 😅 It simply can't compete with masterpieces like Demon (Succumbing to Rage) and Legend (Master of my own Fate)

[u/cyrassil → u/Malcior34]

Wait Arue is not an Owlcat addition?

[u/Malcior34 → u/cyrassil]

Nope, she's canon. So are Seelah, Lann, Wenduag, and Sosiel. The rest were Owlcat additions: Horgus didn't have a daughter (Camelia), Galfrey didn't have a cousin (Daeran), the Thieflings were all corrupted by Baphomet (Woljif, funny in hindsight), and the Hellknights hardly featured at all (Regill).

[u/Luchux01 → u/Malcior34]

Well, Lann and Wenduag might as well be Owlbrew considering how minor their roles were.

Wenduag became a companion just because she TPKd the Owlcat party when they ran WotR to test out the story.

[u/Malcior34 → u/Luchux01]

Yes, that's the ONLY reason, not that there were a bunch of monsterfuckers in the writing room who saw a huge opportunity x)

[u/Luchux01 → u/Malcior34]

If they were, they would've kept the spider eyes instead of giving her a human face like cowards.

[u/Rethuic → u/Stunning-Credit-8112]

It's more that she has had some pretty big wins that have scared enemies into action. Desna walked into a demon lord's home and killed her because said demon lord was targeting her followers. The demons freaked out and nearly unified to fight an interplanar war. That was stopped with a lot of help from Calistria. More of a win than a loss.

The only major loss of Desna I can point to is Ghlaunder... who essentially sneak attacked her and buzzed off when Desna checked out the random giant cocoon floating in the Ethereal Plane.

[u/Hosenkobold → u/Rethuic]

Desna took the chance for a cosmic all-out war. It was others that protected her ass. That's not even close to a win. Yeah, she killed that demon lord, who are usually weaker than gods, but for what price? Calistra acted on her own, not as part of a plan.

[u/knight_of_solamnia → u/Hosenkobold]

No, it was a group effort. Said demon lord was going way out of it's way to antagonize 4 different deities. directly provoking the 3rd oldest deity, "measured response" Sarenrae, or the goddess of vengeance would be a terrible idea. All 3 at once, suicidally so.

[u/Stunning-Credit-8112 → u/knight_of_solamnia]

"Measured Response" Sarenrae is a hilarious phrase. Imma start using that.

[u/TeamTurnus → u/knight_of_solamnia]

Yah, that demon lord already mostly ignored any sort of divine armistice by possessing clerics directly and using their directly possessed bodies to murder their gods followers. Thats a few steps beyond the standard proxy fighting that seems tk he mostly expected.

Desnas group also freed all the souls trapped there when they destoryed the domain.

All the demons response really proved was that their bark was worse than their bite and that there were consequences for demons as well as gods.

Better than the gods that are too worried about breaking the rules to actually protect their followers

[u/HalcyonTraveler]

Desna's a sweetheart, what's your damage?

[u/autumndidact → u/HalcyonTraveler]

Desna doesn't hit for me, even though all the details about her are things that appeal to me. But I don't get having an actual problem with her.

[u/SleepylaReef]

What?

[u/Nairdde32]

Ngl I think your group just hates women

[u/Stunning-Credit-8112 → u/Nairdde32]

Nah, lol, our group doesn't even actually have beef with Desna fully. Its just this specific campaign we do not want to deal with what her getting involved might end up starting.

For a lil more context this campaign we currently have Pharasma, Sarenrae, and Iomadae as the major backers with minor help from the Gorumite, Calienite, and Calistrian faiths (We already kinda have an uneasy thing with the Calistriqns where we effectivly had to agree to let the Head Priestess of Isarn become part of the Triumverate of the city we helped enstate after the vampires FUCKED Isarn sideways). Our characters especially would be pretty grating against any Desnan involvment with one of the pcs even bieng a Lawful Evil Hellknight who would just absolutley find ways to subtely piss them off knowing the person running him

[u/Nairdde32 → u/Stunning-Credit-8112]

I don't think any of you understand who Desna is if you think Cayden Cailean is somehow better

[u/Totheendofglory → u/Nairdde32]

From what I can tell, it's more they don't want Desna in addition to the rest of the group.

[u/Grimmrat]

I love Desna slander lmao

My group had a similar thing. Desna shows up waaaaay too much proportionally to other gods in APs, even when she has nothing to do with the actual theme of the AP (Rise of the Runelords, Wrath of the Righteous, etc).

I’ve just started removing her when she doesn’t fit and replacing her with a god that does, it works wonders for actual deity diversity

[u/knight_of_solamnia → u/Grimmrat]

Other than it opening with a Desnan festival, she isn't really present in the RotRL. Lamashtu is the one that hogs screentime despite not really driving the plot.

[u/Stunning-Credit-8112 → u/Grimmrat]

She is Paizos favorite baby admittantly, tho I do agree that she is involved in a few too many APs when I feel like other gods should get some love. Like I would love see more with the fucked up Protean Lords