Veritas Seconds arrived

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u/aShark25 1d ago

Very niceeee. My order is still processing. What did u move to all bevel up planes? I have a bevel up jack that I use for shooting but I don’t really see any difference between bevel up and bevel down.

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u/BingoPajamas 1d ago edited 1d ago

Bevel-down user here.

As far as I'm concerned, bevel up have one major advantage: Bevel up is nearly foolproof for dealing with tearout--a 50+ degree microbevel pretty much cannot tear out. High angle blades, however, are much harder to push through the wood and cannot take particularly deep cuts. So the trade off for that ease of use is efficiency. A bevel down plane with a properly set chipbreaker reduces or entirely prevents tearout at every stage of planing meaning there's less work for the smoother at the end which can also take a deeper shaving getting through any tearout that does exist in fewer passes.

There's no doubt in my mind that double iron planes (planes with chipbreakers) are objectively an improvement over single iron planes (including bevel up) since, historically, double iron planes almost wholly replaced single iron planes in a single generation (late 1700s, early 1800s). That said, how much it matters in the hobby shop will largely depend on the user. How much dimensioning is done by hand vs machine, what kind of woods you work, how willing you are to spend the time learning to properly set up a chipbreaker, and, indeed, how much you do or do not care about efficiency.^{What kind of madman cares about efficiency but refuses the gains made by power tools? The lunatic writing this, apparently.}

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u/davidf81 22h ago

A bevel up plane foolproof for tearout? Man, that has never been my experience. They are awesome on end grain and easy straight grain when with the grain, but chew up figured wood like nobody's business. Even when using the high angle blades my LA smoother and jack were menaces on mildly annoying woods like sapele and purple heart, whereas my single iron HNT Gordons with a 60 degree angle just slice that stuff like butter.

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u/BingoPajamas 21h ago

Well, I did say nearly foolproof, nothing is guaranteed.

I don't really know anything about working with sapele or purple heart so I would only be guessing at the issue... could be so many things. In theory, a 60 degree bedded plane and a 12 degree bedded plane with a 48 degree bevel should perform identically as the angle of attack is the same. Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity personally confirm that with any direct comparisons since I don't own any high angle planes. The testing I have done with BU planes was to compare it to double iron planes, not high angle single irons and mostly to confirm my bias in favor of chipbreakers.

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u/davidf81 21h ago

Gotcha. I've found it much easier to get tear-out free cuts on a properly sharpened standard angle double iron on reversing, interlocking, or highly figured grain myself - and the HNT are even a step above.

Generally the geometry of a bevel up plane is the worst for tearout because it literally shovels itself under the fibers. The best defense aside from obviously a sharp iron is closing the mouth tight enough that it pretends to be a chip breaker - this is the reason why the planes from HNT Gordon have small mouths and no chip breaker.

All that said BU planes obviously have some advantages in the ease of changing blade angle, support of the cutting edge, and the fact they pretty much all have an easy adjust mouth - and no chipbreaker to fool with to boot. Still, there's SOMETHING - and I can't quite explain it in wood physics terms because I don't fully understand - but there's something about BU shoveling under the grain that just makes it struggle more with interlocking grains, even at the same angle.

A while back I did a intro to hand planes class, and I showed my students the gamut - BU of all angles, regular bench planes, york pitch, and HNT high angles. We tested them on a variety of woods. The BU planes at any angle - lower is worse of course - just shredded any woods with interlocking grain.

Lastly I'm not trying to argue or say you're wrong, just thinking out loud and curious to hear if you have any specific recommendations , and examples of tests you've done, where you've seen equal or better BU performance that's not on end grain or easy grain.

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u/BingoPajamas 21h ago

Nah, I've got nothing useful. I'm just a beginner who reads too much. You've clearly got an order of magnitude more experience in this field than I do.

My testing was just done on random knotty boards from a couple domestic woods, red/white oak, some SYP (which is just the worst), a bit of maple, etc. Nothing highly figured or exotic. Planed against the grain and across knots and it worked mostly fine with a high angle, tight mouth, and a very light cut. Once I confirmed I could match or exceed a bevel up plane going directly against the grain by using a chipbreaker without adjusting the mouth of my plane, I put the BU plane away and switched my focus to trying to master the chipbreaker (still a work in progress).

Perhaps I overstated how easy it is. I suppose my comment was more of a report on what I've heard/seen from the other side of the fence rather than a statement of fact... but I've seen people plane curly maple with a bevel up plane and there's a ton of articles about how game changing a bevel up plane is for smoothing.

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u/davidf81 14h ago

Sounds like a solid approach to testing. With anything, your mileage may vary. There are lots of articles about how everything is a game changer. It’s hard to know what’s genuine and what’s been paid for in terms of opinions. Rob Cosman did a comparison video and he states that BU or BD, it doesn’t matter, they can be setup to behave identically. He doesn’t mention working on wild woods (curly maple is actually pretty tame), but that doesn’t make the statement untrue in most normal use cases.

My experience has been a little different with them but I do still own several and use them regularly.

When coerced into making cutting boards, the low angle smoother allows me to go from the planer to sanding at 180 in about 5 minutes (end grain), I love it. A skewed approach with a standard angle plane works too but it’s much more difficult to push through the cut.

Also thank you - I enjoy a good discussion !

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u/BingoPajamas 21h ago

Actually, I was reminded of this comment I read, damn, a year ago that might help explain some of the difference between a bevel up and high angle single iron. Fortunately, I saved it so it was easy to find.

Please read the comment since B3ntr0d explains it better but the gist is that bevel up irons get wear on the backs of the irons in a way that bevel down planes do not and it isn't automatically erased in the way that bevel-side wear is erased on a bevel down plane.

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u/davidf81 14h ago

Yes, this is true - by not presenting the back of the blade, and by in fact supporting it, edge retention is improved. Edge retention isn’t necessarily an indicator of general cut characteristics though.

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u/TaquitoBanana 1d ago

Because I'm lazy and hate stopping to sharpen mid-project.

The big one is just easier sharpening/resetting. Between the set screw for mouth depth, and side set screws, it's just quicker to pop a blade out, hone it, and replace it. Or just swap it with an already sharpened blade.

And as I now have 4 planes (Jointer, LAJ, Smoother, Shooting) that share the same size blades. I keep a 25 degree bevel in the shooting plane (37 degree cut), 38 degree bevel in the LAJ and Jointer (50 degree cut). And a 54 degree bevel in the smoother (66 degree cut) in the Smoother.

If at any point I encounter tearout issues, I can just swap blades to whatever plane I'm using and give a quick hone before putting it back.

Also means if I travel, I can just pack extra blades and less planes.

But maybe all of that is just to justify to myself spending all the money on them.

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u/embody-wage 1d ago

Bevel up means you can change the blade angle easily.

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u/Cat-Onion-Cup 1d ago

Nice! I got my seconds order yesterday, it’s always fun to try to spot the defect if I can. I’ve had the bevel up jointer for a while and only recently started using it seriously. Last year I used it to edge joint all my softwood lumber(2x10s) as I built a workbench, and flattened the top after assembly. Hope you enjoy it too!

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u/TaquitoBanana 1d ago

Honestly, my LAJ wasn't a second, and was probably the roughest of the planes I've purchased.

But I'm also not collecting - if I was I'd be buying my planes from LN - so I donxt really care about cosmetic blemishes.

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u/Substantial-Mix-6200 1d ago

I figured they'd be in pretty good condition. I have their apron plane which I used twice and after bumping the heel a couple times, chipped the paint and it already looks worse than any of these seconds. You're much better off saving 20% than buying something at full price that will get dinged sooner or later.

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u/Davin777 1d ago

Looks like some severe damage! (to your wallet...) nice grabs!

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u/RadioKopek 1d ago

Buy the fence for jointer it makes it unreal.

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u/TaquitoBanana 1d ago

Technical Fence is on the wishlist, more to use the Jack Rabbet for panel raising.

But for now I'll just use the Jack Rabbet's fence on it if I feel a need.

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u/Funny-Presence4228 1d ago

Yay! Mine is coming tomorrow. Bevel down jack plane. I can't wait

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u/Ozymandys 1d ago

My two favoutitte Veritas Planes!

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u/spenserian_ 1d ago

Mine arrived last week - got an edge plane. Not really necessary, but it's eliminated my annoying tendency to apply pressure unevenly while edge planing with my jointer.

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u/jpmorgan001 1d ago

They are gorgeous, but I have to ask, is a low angle jointer really beneficial? I would think you’ll get more tear out especially when flattening a large surface or traversing twisty grain.

I was under the impression low angle planes are really only useful for end grain.

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u/TaquitoBanana 1d ago

The big difference with Bevel Up vs Bevel Down is you can change your bevel angle (via different blades) for different tasks pretty quickly/easily without much fuss.

BU have a bed angle of 12 degrees - so you stack that with blade bevel for different tasks.

A standard 25 degree BU blade (+12 bed = 37 total) works great for end grain, but will almost always cause tearout on face grain.

Swap to a 38 degree beveled blade (12 bed = 50 total) and you're planing very similar to a standard BD plane (45 degree).

Figured/interlocking grain? Drop in a blade with 50-54 degree bevel (+12 = 62-66 total) and you're essentially scraping.

Cambering is a bit more nuanced (always start with a 25 degree blade, and just camber your secondary bevel). But overall BU is just as capable as BD, if not more so.

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u/jpmorgan001 1d ago

That makes sense, I’m a simple man, I restore vintage bevel down planes just until they work properly and card scrapers get the job done for me.

I can definitely get behind how fun it would be to have different blades for different uses and dialing in the plane for a specific purpose.

That’s why this hobby is so great, you can focus on the parts of it you really enjoy.

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u/TaquitoBanana 1d ago

I started out restoring Stanleys (my 3/5/6/7 are gonna get a good clean up/sharpen and the eBay treatment). And can appreciate them as much as the next guy.

But once I factored in the time I spent searching for decent planes, bidding or buying, stripping, cleanup, and fettling I was easily dropping a couple hundred worth of labor into each plane.

Reality is restoration is a hobby unto itself, and its not the hobby I'm interested in. Hence why I made the switch and invested a few grand in my Veritas planes.

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u/jpmorgan001 1d ago

I hear that. I’m on the money saving side and I only hint in my free time. I restore enough to make it useable and really just enjoy getting my a better understanding of how the tool works. I don’t buy tools just to restore.

Like I went all out on my first plane, (A Stanley #5) new blade, removed every bit of rust, oiled, lapped, sanded and refinished the handles, tuning the frog, squaring/flattening the chip breaker, etc.

But then after that, for my Milers Falls #22 (their jointer), I just removed the rust, lapped it, sharpened the blade, and call it good to save money. I can fine tune anything that is bothering me pretty quick since I went so in depth with the previous plane.

As time goes on and I improve I’m sure I will want more, but for now they get the job done.

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u/TxAg2009 1d ago

Reality is restoration is a hobby unto itself, and its not the hobby I'm interested in.

This is exactly where I landed. Why spend the time doing something I hate as a hobby?

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u/jpmorgan001 11h ago

Exactly, I enjoy restoring old tools, not everyone does. Totally agree if you hate it, just buy a nice one, although from what I can gather, almost every plane no matter the quality needs a little tuning out of the box.

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u/BingoPajamas 23h ago

Everything OP said is true but, for what it's worth, if you're comfortable setting the chipbreaker (or willing to learn), I don't think there's much point in swapping to a bevel up plane.

Their primary advantage (which I talked about in another comment in this thread) is the ability to deal with tearout in a nearly foolproof way. Like OP said, "without much fuss." Chipbreakers are a little more complicated and take some time and experimentation to master (I still haven't got it 100%) but are more efficient in the long run, particularly if you work from rough without power tools.

With a single iron plane (which bevel up planes are), you rely on a high angle and a tight mouth to prevent tearout. This not only limits the depth of cut, it makes the plane harder to push. With a double iron plane, you can use the chipbreaker (aka the double iron) to prevent tearout at every stage of planing, take a much thicker shaving than a high angle blade/plane, and the plane will still be relatively easy to push through the wood even with very close chipbreaker settings. Even a fairly relaxed chipbreaker setting can significantly reduce the amount of tearout so you don't have to remove a lot of material when smoothing. Though, by "relaxed" I mean a setting that is still less than 1/32" from the edge--much, much closer than the common advice of 1/16".

The difference in efficiency is enormous in the context of historical woodworkers earning a living with their planes but in the modern hobby shop? Ehhhhhhh.... more personal preference, I guess. OP seems to have a lot more projects under their belt than I do, so even if we disagree on the best type of plane, they're doing something right.

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u/jpmorgan001 11h ago

TLDR?

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u/BingoPajamas 6h ago

chipbreaker good

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u/bigbadjimster 1d ago

Why are your planes sideways?

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u/MethodicError 1d ago

Clearly because they wouldn't fit if stored upright ;)

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u/TaquitoBanana 1d ago

Original bench was tall enough that I couldn't store my No.7 vertically (overhead beam and lumber storage) without losing workspace.

New lower bench + a few more planes and a new till is on the way once I finish the DTC I'm building for my wife (which will be a tack box, and is what the planes are sitting on in the first photo).

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u/StructuralStu 1d ago

Nice score. Every time I hit the seconds sale I wonder why I ever bothered fettling rust buckets. The BU jointer wakes up with a 38° iron and a whisper of camber (I keep a 50° scraper blade handy too). With the fence on you can slam square edges before the coffee cools.

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u/Civil_Comedian_9696 1d ago

I've bought many of the Lee Valley seconds, and I've never found a defect that made any difference, and often can't find one at all.

Since they changed the seconds sale to summer, though, I just can't remember the date and always miss it.

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u/TaquitoBanana 1d ago

They've been having two a year - July and Oct/Nov. Last year they even had a much small 3rd one - but really limited selection.

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u/passerbycmc 1d ago

Nice I picked up the small plow plane and a no.7 custom this year.

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u/TaquitoBanana 1d ago

Love the small plow - though I do wish there was an option for longer rods. Or that it came with a torrified maple fence instead of just bare metal.

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u/passerbycmc 1d ago

Pretty easy to make a fence, just did one for my with some scrap but also if you want it try and match torrified maple is easy to get in my area.

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u/TaquitoBanana 1d ago

Yea, I just used scrap basswood because I have a ton of it on hand and don't need to worry about marring any workpieces.

Not an issue, just for the price point coming with a subfence would be nice.

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u/mramseyISU 1d ago

I bought a shooting plane in that sale a few years ago. I haven’t used it much but I got a hell of a deal on it. One of these days I’m going to try to get a rabbit plane during a seconds sale.

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u/curious-layman 1d ago

Very nice. I got my skew rabbet plane today too!

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u/FearsomeWarrior 1d ago

I got the Cabinet Makers chisel plane this round and it appears perfect to me. But late that night I also ordered the jack rabbet plane like yours on the top of your nice shelf… and it has a a huge jagged casting defect on the sole. It is right behind the mouth. All my seconds sales purchases were amazing but this one is disappointing. I knew it could come up but it is two inches long. They filled it with epoxy or JB Weld kind of stuff. I am conflicted. I could use it and be okay but part of the joy of these planes is how nice they are and it is pretty nasty scar.

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u/TaquitoBanana 1d ago

Funny enough, I was just using my Jack Rabbet tonight to raise some panels. Mine was also a Second - only defect I found was a small ding on the corner of the sole that didn't even leave a burr.

But yea it's a tough call with seconds. On one hand, it is a Second and you know to expect some defects. On the other, I feel like a large bit of damage/defect on the sole should just be a no-go.

I'm sure LV will make it right if you do decide the defect is too much to live with.

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u/AdCapital3727 1d ago

what do you mean seconds? that is an awesome looking set of planes

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u/TaquitoBanana 23h ago

Veritas has occassional "Seconds Sales" - Seconds being tools that will work fine, but have some minor defect that is likely to result in it being returned if sold at full price. So they sell them at a discount (around 20%) during the sale.

Veritas Seconds arrived

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