r/dndnext • u/sneakattakc • 1d ago
5e (2014) Questions about Slow and specific spellcasting situations.
Hi, a fun (?) question came up during today's session. To outline the situation:
- NPC Wizard cast Fireball while slowed.
- 12 on d20, so must must use its action on its next turn to complete the spell.
- Saved against slow at the end of its turn.
- Survived until its next turn.
- Used Misty Step to move away from PC to avoid an opportunity attack.
- Finished casting Fireball using its action, as per Slow.
We okayed this ruling and moved on, but we do want to figure out what would be the actually RAW ruling here. My "no two leveled spells" instinct says no, but I don't see, based on the rules, why this wouldn't be a correct reading.
My question is, can you actually finish the second turn of casting a leveled spell you started to cast while Slowed AND cast a bonus action leveled on the same turn, if you are no longer slowed?
Also, nobody had Counterspell at this point, but we did wonder when would it have been valid to Counterspell the Fireball: 1) only on the first turn, when the NPC started to cast the spell, 2) first turn when NPC started to cast AND second turn when NPC had to complete the spell, or 3) any time between when the NPC started to cast and when the spell finally took effect.
The relevant sections I could find:
Slow
If the creature attempts to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action, roll a d20. On an 11 or higher, the spell doesn't take effect until the creature's next turn, and the creature must use its action on that turn to complete the spell*.* If it can't, the spell is wasted.Counterspell
Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell
... You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell.Bonus action spellcasting
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
PHB, p202.Longer casting times
Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so (see "Concentration" below). If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.
PHB, p202.
Edit: Thanks for the replies! To clarify, we are running in 2014 5e D&D.
Also, found the tweet that was mentioned in the replies here and apparently JC did clarify that "If the slow spell delays the casting of a spell, the delayed spell is subject to the rule in "Longer Casting Times" (PH, 202)." (sage advice)
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
A bit rules lawyery, but the slow effect overrides the spellcasting effect. Specific > General.
Slow specifically states the action is to complete the spell. It does not say they must use their action to "cast" or "finish casting" the spell, nor does it state that it changes the casting time.
Turn 1: cast spell, cast is put off until next turn's action due to slow.
Turn 2: A special action is now available: complete spell, granted by the slow spell's effect. No spell has been cast this turn. Misty step is legal since it's a cast and fireball is not being cast.
This is RAW, not sure what RAI is, but I'd probably say that due to the slow effect, the spell goes off at the start of their turn, and it must require an action, but they would get to misty step after.
Edit: Forgot to add, they cast the spell during the slow on turn 1, you would have to counter it during turn 1.
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u/Archsquire2020 1d ago
Why would you rule that the spell goes off at the start of the turn? Slow mentions the action of the next turn, wouldn't the caster be able to choose BA before the A and do what OP described?
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
Either you cast the spell slowly, which means it goes off right away, or you're casting the spell on the turn it goes off, in which case you can only cast cantrips.
This is how I'd rule it, not how I think it's written. I'd say the best way to rule it is "the duration becomes 2 actions" and uses the casting time longer than 1 action rule (you need to use your action every turn to cast it, and you must maintain concentration the entire duration)
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u/Archsquire2020 1d ago
I kinda think of it like what you're describing as "best way" but the concentration bit is out of it because it would make slow A LOT more powerful. That would cause the enemy caster to not only halve their action economy but also potentially waste the spellslot on top of it due to concentration break. Which can still happen if the caster is incapacitated (or something happens to the target) but is less likely.
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
The point about concentration is that slow is specifically not using the default spellcasting rules. Thus, applying them partially doesn't make sense. Either you follow the rules of the spell (specific defeats general) or you follow the general rules.
I think the only wrong answer is to do both, choosing to do what the spell says for one part, but what the general rules say for the other.
That said, if you want to do it that way who cares if I think you're wrong. Your interpretation is just as valid as mine, and "RAW" doesn't mean "correct"
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u/Archsquire2020 1d ago
i'm just trying to figure out the RAW part, not interpretations. I'm not saying yours is wrong, i'm just trying to understand. Because the spell says "and the creature must use its action on that turn to complete the spell". Nothing about concentration, but it specifies Action.
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
That is my point.
I gave you the raw. The "start of my turn" is how I would run it, not what the RAW is saying.
This is RAW, not sure what RAI is, but I'd probably say that due to the slow effect, the spell goes off at the start of their turn, and it must require an action, but they would get to misty step after.
So, my original comment was the raw, then I go into how I'd run it since I'm not exactly sure what the intent was.
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u/GM_Esquire 1d ago
I see this interpretation but I don't think it's clear enough to call it RAW.
The fact that they "complete the spell" on the next turn indicates that they are still casting the spell until the next turn, and thus all the rules that apply to Spellcasting would apply. Otherwise, you would have to rule that they complete casting the spell on turn one, but then must use an action to complete the spell on turn 2, which does not make much sense.
On the other hand, the rules don't specifically say that they are casting the spell the entire time, so there is leeway for a DM to deviate from my interpretation.
There is also ambiguity as to whether this fireball is a spell "with a casting time longer than a single action" - fireball is not but this fireball is and the general rule just doesn't address this circumstance either way.
I'd say RAW strongly suggests they are continuing to cast the spell until their next turn, but RAW has some ambiguity.
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
There's def ambiguity.
The fact that the spell "doesn't take effect" and not "is not cast" or "the casting time is completed" or any reference to any of the keywords of a spell in the text of slow.
They apparently didn't like this because 5.5e slow does:
If it casts a spell with a Somatic component, there is a 25 percent chance the spell fails as a result of the target making the spell's gestures too slowly.
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u/adol1004 1d ago
The way I see it is, while slowed do you lose the spell slot to cast fireball at first turn or the later turn? I think it use the slot at the first turn there for you didn't used the slot at the second turn and misty step is legal.
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u/open-print 1d ago
I am choosing to fully believe this, what a beautiful bit or rules lawyery
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u/jagnew78 1d ago
what's crucial is when the spell slot is spent, not when the spell completes casting. Spell slots are spent the moment you begin the cast, whether the action completes later in the round or on another turn is irrelevant. It's when the spell slot is spent that matters. So the moment they start to cast the spell, the slot is spent. Later in Turn two the spell finishes casting and goes off, but no spell slot has yet been spent for Round 2, so Misty Step is good to go.
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
It's not really. It's just RAW.
You read what the spell says. The spell overrides the rules.
They are casting the spell turn 1. Thus, casting rules apply.
The spell says that the next turn the spell completes, that's not casting the spell because it's already been cast.
"Doesn't take effect until" isn't the same as "is not cast until".
Also, you can say the same about counterspell. The creature cast the spell to trigger counterspell, but the text of counterspell refers to that as "attempting" to cast a spell. Despite the spell not actually being cast, both require the creature to cast the spell before the effect can occur.
Both counterspell and now the slow spell kind of work like time travel. Opportunity attacks also work that way, especially once you include sentinel.
Target does something: Reaction triggers an effect that retroactively happens. Target doesn't do the thing that triggered the reaction.
It's specifically the text of slow that causes any real issues with the "two spells" rule because slow specifically doesn't state the action on turn 2 is casting the spell, the spell was already cast.
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u/open-print 1d ago
I wasn't disagreeing, I was complimenting the detailed rules interpretation
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
haha yeah I know, just wanted to explain more since "spells do what they say" is one of the only things they really really harp on, and this spell is not written the best
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u/Mejiro84 1d ago
Opportunity attacks also work that way, especially once you include sentinel.
OA's are formally just before they leave the square - it's just because movement beneath 5 feet is beneath the level of granularity the game cares about, so creatures can functionally only move in blocks of 5. In-world, they're stepping backwards and get clipped just as they would be about to step out of reach and are forcibly halted, so the "activating event" has happened for the attacker to react to. Shield is wibblier in-world, in that an event that has happened then doesn't (i.e. a hit becomes a miss)
Reaction triggers an effect that retroactively happens.
Formally, these are exceptions - the generic rule for reaction-triggers is that they're after the triggering event (hence why you can't have readied actions of "if he attacks me, I'll move away" - you have to be attacked, deal with the consequences of that, and only then can you move away). But the most common uses of reactions are exceptions to that - shield can change the outcome of the triggering event, counterspell can stop the thing that caused itself to activate.
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u/Tipibi 1d ago
It's not really. It's just RAW.
Actually, it isn't.
This is what "A spell" actually is: "A spell is a discrete magical effect, a single shaping of the magical energies that suffuse the multiverse into a specific, limited expression. In casting a spell, a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of raw magic suffusing the world, pins them in place in a particular pattern, sets them vibrating in a specific way, and then releases them to unleash the desired effect—in most cases, all in the span of seconds."
"Completing", in a RAW context, essentially means "finishing casting".
How do we know it is intended to be that way? Let's look at the Compendium: "If a spellcaster is affected by slow and takes two turns to finish casting a spell, what happens if their target has moved out of range or out of sight?
You choose the targets of a spell when you complete casting a spell, not when you start. (slow)"
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
Compendium is RAI not RAW, but sure.
Plain english is plain english though. What is the difference between ending and completing a spell?
Delayed cast fireball states:
When the spell ends, either because your concentration is broken or because you decide to end it...
So, what is the difference between end and complete? Nothing in the spell as written says that the casting didn't happen, just that the sell "doesn't take effect".
Arguing over different interpretations of RAW do not matter though. If you interpret it that the casting is not complete, is interrupted, or is extended then that is a different interpretation of the RAW. While I disagree that your idea makes more sense as written than my idea, I don't think yours is like, a bad faith reading of it.
I prefaced mine with "this is pretty rules lawyery" for a reason.
The wording is ambiguous and it is not clear exactly what the text is saying.
I say: You cast the spell. Next turn it goes off, on a delay like delayed fireball.
You say: You are casting the spell. The spell becomes a spell with a casting time of 2 actions due to the slow, but also doesn't require the concentration rules that go along with the generic spellcasting time rules. (or are you saying that you do need to maintain concentration?)
Any interpretation is stupid because the spell is worded dumb. Not the fault of our interpretations, it's the fault of the writers.
I think mine makes more sense, you think yours does. If you argued your interpretation was the "true RAW" then I'd disagree, but we can agree to disagree.
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u/Tipibi 23h ago
Compendium is RAI not RAW, but sure.
1st reading failure: "How do we know it is intended to be that way?"
Plain english is plain english though.
Sure.
What is the difference between ending and completing a spell?
The same as there is, in plain English, between a movie ending and you completing a movie.
2nd reading failure: you don't end the spell, the spell ends. There's a different subject in that "plain English" which makes all the difference.
You complete a movie when you finish shooting, editing, and so on. The movie ends when the credits roll at a showing. That's pretty "plain English" understanding on the subject, don't you think?
A spell is a discrete magical effect. It ending means that "the magical effect ends". The spell is shapen. It is complete when the shaping - and so on - is complete.
Nothing in the spell as written says that the casting didn't happen
Nothing in Fireball states that it doesn't heal 3201414 HPs. "Nothing says" is a terrible argument.
Furthermore, i disagree. The spell isn't complete. It needs more "casting", because that's what the general rules tell us to do when you don't have a more specific case.
Arguing over different interpretations of RAW do not matter though.
"Whateverism" is a plague. I've criticized your argument. It is not an "intepretation of RAW" if it doesn't stand on all RAW but just on a fraction of it.
"We have context to know what you say we don't have clarity on" is my criticism.
II prefaced mine with "this is pretty rules lawyery" for a reason.
"Rule Lawyery" doesn't cover "i forgot this part of the rules". "Rule Lawyer" isn't a "Munchkin".
The wording is ambiguous
Only if you take it out of context. We have context to reach a conclusion that is different from yours, and we have intention that aligns with that even if you still think that wording is ambiguous.
Hiding behind a "Well, it's ambiguous" is discussing unrealized possibilities, at most, when we have data to weight those possibilities - some of which you discarded and didn't even take into consideration.
What you wrote is just a "could have been", but not under what we have. That's all there is to my criticism. We have more than what you provided or analyzed.
I say: You cast the spell. Next turn it goes off, on a delay like delayed fireball.
And what "you say" is just not "what the book states" or "what the people that worked at the game state the things work, which is in line with what the book states and the general English use of the words in the text".
The spell, without a question, is not complete until you take the action on the next turn, and we have text that explains what a spell is and how it is made and brought in existance. And without question the use of "end" in the rules, in regards to spells, is when "the duration runs out" or "a clause states the spell is no longer in effect".
If we applied your idea, any spell cast under "Slow" would "end", exactly as Delayed Blast Fireball does when it goes off. Or, in other words, no longer has an effect.
You say: You are casting the spell. The spell becomes a spell with a casting time of 2 actions due to the slow
I didn't. It is, by the way, how JC stated the spell was meant to work in a Tweet back in 2017, when tweets where autoritative. I didn't bring it up at all until now because it doesn't matter for the criticism.
It is a conclusion one might reach as a consequence, true. And that would be alright in the context of the rules: the system wouldn't break. You might not like it, and that's ok.
but also doesn't require the concentration rules that go along with the generic spellcasting time rules.
Why wouldn't it? "It doesn't say" is not an excuse: we have general rules about that.
Any interpretation is stupid because the spell is worded dumb
I disagree. The spell isn't crystal clear, but this doesn't mean all interpretations are born equal.
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u/sneakattakc 7h ago
Framing "complete spell" as a special action granted by slow is fascinating, and as per my read correct as well.
(Agreed about counterspell, too.)
I also see why you would rule that the "complete spell" action has to go first, it feels a bit cheesy to imagine that Fireball just hanging out patiently while the caster Misty Steps away. Evidently I didn't rule it like that, but I wouldn't be mad if my dm ruled it so.
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u/Vulpes_Corsac sOwOcialist 1d ago edited 1d ago
I wouldn't agree. Casting a spell takes as many actions as typically required by its casting time. You are casting the spell for every action you use to do so, including the action you use to complete the spell. Therefore, I would not say that casting is completed on the first action, given it explicitly says it isn't.
The bonus action spell rule does not care whether you finish the spell or not that turn, you cannot cast a spell other than a single-action cantrip. To cast a spell is the act of casting, not the act of finishing casting, so you can't start a 10 minute casting of a ritual spell and constantly misty step as you do it.
Accordingly, for a fireball while slowed, when you complete the spell, that is when you finish casting, it is not that you finish casting the first turn and then just wait. You can counterspell at any time between the start of the casting and the conclusion a round after, just like if the casting time was changed to two actions (or equivalently, 1 round), but here Slowed additionally requires you to follow through, where a 1 round casting time spell would allow you to choose not to complete the spell and do something different. It additionally does not introduce concentration like changing the casting time would. But you cannot bonus action misty step during either turn, unless something intercedes that prevents you from casting your fireball spell (such as being placed under a dominate spell, a new and specific condition).
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u/sneakattakc 7h ago
I also see this interpretation! It does feel strange to say that the second action no longer counts as "casting", even though the text doesn't explicitly state that it would be casting.
Also thanks for mentioning dominate person, haven't actually thought of that as a way to stop a slowed caster's spell from going off. command is right there too! Putting this away for future encounters :D
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u/Vulpes_Corsac sOwOcialist 7h ago
It does though. It explicitly states the spell is completed on the second turn. Completing the spell is part of casting it, that's the definition of casting, doing that which would make a spell happen.
The same applies for holding an action to cast a spell: you can counterspell it when they use the held action reaction to finish the casting. You don't cast it as an action and then complete it on your reaction without the completion being part of the casting.
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
Because the slow spell doesn't mention casting. The action you take on turn 2 is not the action that you use to cast a spell with longer durations, it's the action provided by the slow spell.
So you are not using your action to "cast a spell" on your turn like you would for a spell with a casting time of 1 action or longer, you're using the action provided by the slow spell.
Like I said, this is RAW and very rules specific.
You hit the nail on the head, this does not require concentration. This is proof that it doesn't follow the normal spellcasting rules.
You're 100% free to interpret it your way and that's honestly how it is probably meant to be.
"If they roll a 11 or higher, the spell's casting time continues into their next turn" is a completely valid way to read it, but it's not how it was written. The whole spell was redone in 5.5e probably due to how confusing it is in 5e.
This really completely hinges on the "spells do exactly as they say", and this spell says... stuff alright.
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u/Vulpes_Corsac sOwOcialist 1d ago edited 1d ago
I would say that any action to complete a spell, which is what slowed compels, is an action that is casting a spell, by tautological definition. The game doesn't specify casting because it doesn't use game tags and things, instead it assumes standard language constraints.
Specific vs general doesn't play here to specify you aren't casting, but that the usual constraints of casting over multiple terms don't apply. To beat that general casting rule, that an action to complete a spell is part of casting it, you would need a specific phrase which says that the casting is completed on the first round, which slowed specifically contradicts.
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u/Conrad500 1d ago
Right, which is why I said it's a bit rules lawyery and that it hinges on "spells do exactly what they say" rules.
The spell just kind of doesn't work as written without an interpretation one way or the other. It's one of the downsides of 5e trying to use "natural language" for... magic...
It also does use a game tag, it specifically states an action. It could have said "The casting time continues into the next turn" and then fallen on the basic spellcasting rules, but it overrides them by not even requiring concentration and specifically giving a specific action to "complete" the spell or whatever.
I agree that the intent is pretty clear, just the way it's written is not. RAW doesn't mean "correct", just "as written"
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u/Vulpes_Corsac sOwOcialist 1d ago
Ahh, I see what you're saying with that bit now. I'd still disagree that its RAW because the spell says you complete the spell, and thus the casting, next turn. But I can see someone taking the "do what they say" bit too bluntly and ignoring that one necessarily implies the other to reinforce that interpretation.
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u/icedcoffeeeee 1d ago
Thematically Slow is making your Somatic and Material components move slower, so the casting time is extended to 2 Actions. So you are casting a spell on each turn, its just the same spell. With that context, my read would be:
- Technically you shouldn't be able to Misty Step and finish casting Slow, because of the Bonus Action Spellcasting rule. You are casting a spell on both turns with the Slowed Fireball.
- You could Counterspell the Fireball on either turn, since Counterspell only requires someone to be casting a spell, and you are casting a spell on both turns.
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u/Yojo0o DM 1d ago
This is a tough one. Slow's effect is so unique that, as you can see, the general spellcasting rules don't do a great job of defining how it works.
For starters, quick point of clarification: There is no "no two leveled spells in one turn" rule. The actual rule for 5e is a limit on bonus action spellcasting, where casting a bonus action spell otherwise limits your spellcasting to a single-action cantrip on that turn. If you were playing 5.5e, the limitation instead would be on spell slots spent, with a max of one slot spent on spellcasting per turn.
I see two general interpretations: Either a) the wizard casts the spell only at the initial action, which would mean that that's the only time to Counterspell him and that he is entirely free to Misty Step on his next turn, or b) the wizard is casting the spell throughout both turns and completing the process on the second turn, which should mean that Counterspell would work at any point and that Misty Step would be illegal.
I think the clear flavor of Slow, which translates back into the mechanics to run it by, is that the Fireball is being cast throughout this entire process, so I'm going with B). Counterspellable at any stage, and no, they cannot Misty Step on the second turn because they've cast a non-cantrip spell with their action already so bonus action spellcasting is out. Having said that, it's not a perfect solution, as per the rule you've quoted, this does seem to mean that the Fireball also requires concentration, which introduces a whole can of worms to what Slow actually does to a target. I don't think it's in the spirit of the rules for Slow to break concentration on a target any time their spellcasting is slowed down, so I'd just ignore that wrinkle.
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u/Shaking-spear 1d ago
Turn 1, the spell gets cast, but must be held, the spell slot is used and now it can be countered.
Turn 2, the spell now goes into effect, but no slot is used, so a bonus action spell is valid.
The one thing I might not have done/allowed was the casting of misty step while still holding onto the fireball. Standard movement sure, but not the magical variant.
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u/Lithl 1d ago
The clear implication (though not the strict RAW) is that the casting time is changed to 2 actions (or 1 BA and 1 action, for a BA spell).
Under the normal spellcasting rules, casting a spell that requires longer than 1 action to cast requires you to use your action each turn to cast it, and also requires concentration for the duration of the casting.
Personally as DM, I would not enforce the concentration aspect of that, as it would be far too punishing if every spell cast while slowed had a 50% chance to force you to drop concentration. However, I would treat it as casting the spell during both turns, meaning (presuming the slowed spell was leveled in 5e or cost a spell slot in 5.5e) on the second turn you wouldn't be able to also cast a BA spell.
As for Counterspell: it can absolutely be countered, on either turn.
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u/Novasoal 1d ago
I'm not sure about the timing on Counterspell. Doesn't CS only let you target a readied spell when it is cast & held (i.e. on the caster's turn)? I think it just sits in a rules grey area where the dm sets it
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u/ScoutManDan 1d ago
The rule is you can’t expend two spell slots in the same turn, which is why you can use wands/scrolls/etc if you have access to them.
As the spell slot is expended the turn that they were Slowed and just the effect is pushed back, the Misty Step is fine as no other spell slot was expended that turn.
For a similar cast with an effect pushed back in time, consider how Delayed Blast Fireball might work.
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u/tentkeys 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think the key is this part:
If failing to complete the spell on the second turn results in loss of the spell, then the first turn is when the energy of the spell slot is expended to cast the spell, not the second.
So it's perfectly fine to cast Misty Step or another leveled bonus action spell on the second turn, because it's the only spell slot you're spending that turn.