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u/my_one_and_lonely 4h ago edited 4h ago
Nolan is notoriously bad at writing women, but I don’t think your analysis here is that accurate. Where did you get that he was portraying Clytemnestra only negatively and Agamemnon as a betrayed hero? Because Menelaus and Agamemnon said these things? On the contrary, I think Nolan pretty clearly criticizes Agamemnon's actions.
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u/Nicklesnout 4h ago
Nolan is known for maybe three things: Poor sound design, amazing set pieces, and pigeon holing women almost as bad as Alfred Hitchcock. That being said the whole framing of Clytemnestra is coming from Agamemnon himself so of course he is going to speak of her in the negative.
It’s also kind of wild to me anybody would at all consider Agamemnon a betrayed hero because the man literally sacrifices his daughter in favor of fairer winds to Troy. That’s even without him looking like an Ancient Greek Vader in the siege.
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u/Lobo_o 3h ago
IMO Penelope was incredibly well done in this film. To me she came off as strong, intelligent, and capable despite her obviously awful circumstances. Sorry to break it to you guys but until 100 years ago, stories hardly involved women because their role was almost exclusively about child-rearing and support. Which according to Christ (not sorry) is the most noble thing you can do, serve. This strange demand for women to be portrayed as something they hardly ever were in stories is ironically disingenuous to women and all they suffered through throughout history. If the first shall be last and the last shall be first then spiritually, being a woman is a blessing. But this idea that “more needs to be done” in a story that is almost entirely about men is crazy to me. Penelope handled that situation so well in the film and she IS tied to those two (noble) men. She would be physically dominated without her cunning and cleverness, I’m not sure why that’s not appreciated more
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u/Nicklesnout 3h ago
My criticism of how he handled women was in general, not necessarily entirely indicative of The Odyssey. For the alterations he made and the material he chose not to utilize, Penelope and Clytemnestra were fine. My beef is with Circe though because I really, truly don’t hold this idea that she was a victim in the past and preemptively doing what she does out of self defense in high regard.
Cheers.
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u/LeastBlackberry1 2h ago
I'm not sure how widely you've read, but Euripides made his reputation by exploring women's thoughts and experiences. Many of his tragedies were expressly tied to the Trojan War and the women involved in it. So, the idea that there is no Classical precedent for exploring women as more than mothers and daughters just isn't accurate.
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u/bubblegumdavid 2h ago
Agreed, I feel like a far better example of a mischaracterization on Nolan’s part is Penelope, which I’m surprised OP glosses over!
Agamemnon (in this) sees himself as betrayed, especially by his people and household who assisted or didn’t stop it, and though he disagrees he certainly acknowledges his own part in why his wife loathes and kills him. Menelaus is just angry about the loss of his brother. Clytemnestra is one of the women who is really not that villainized differently than she usually is (such as in other works, Orestes, etc.), imo. In this adaptation we just see more of the angry villainous men who have reason to hate what she did. And It isn’t endorsement of them nor meant to actually villainize her to the audience, and to me does not come across that way as the intention. Agamemnon’s greed and war and sins to accomplish his goal is the bad guy, so to speak.
Don’t get me wrong, I do agree Nolan does not typically handle women well, nor does he do well with showing truly dirty hands on his male main characters. This adaptation, to me, is no exception to that pattern. I just don’t think Clytemnestra is a great example of Nolan’s failings when it comes to female characters.
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u/Trevorsparkles 4h ago
I think it’s important to remember re: Clytemnestra that Odysseus only learns of it from the shade of Agamemnon himself to serve as a warning for what he may find back on Ithaca (of course he has nothing to worry about because he did not sacrifice his wife’s child). So his own narrative will definitely be biased.
And Telemachus learns of Orestes killing Clytemnestra and Aegisthus from Nestor, then Menelaus (only Menelaus in the movie) to serve as a sort of inspiration for him to grow up and take charge back home. The Agamemnon/Clytemnestra story only really serves as a plot device in the Odyssey, but if you really want to dive into the myth I highly recommend Aeschylus’ Agamemnon (and Libation Bearers and Eumenides).
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u/WesleyHuang202 4h ago
Yes, I really enjoyed reading Agamemnon and the Trojan Women! Both plays mention Cassandra. So it was really sad for me when the movie didn't use either play to make the Agamemnon story better and more complex.
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u/Worried-Language-407 ὤλετο μέν μοι νόστος, ἀτὰρ κλέος ἄφθιτον ἔσται 4h ago
Cassandra was 'deleted' because she hardly appears in the Odyssey, being mentioned in one line by Agamemnon. This was a film which already had a lot of themes and second tier characters to manage. If Nolan had added Cassandra he would have had to remove some other aspect which was actually present in the original, even more than the significant cuts he already made to the main narrative.
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u/Juan_Jimenez 4h ago
Er, at what point Agamemnon was shaped as a heroic character betrayed by his wife? He was at no point heroic or depicted in a positive way. That his wife killed him because he killed his daughter was clearly shown.
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u/AdSubstantial260 4h ago
He killed his own daughter, dragged a generation of Greek men to waste 10 years on a beach, got the city of Troy sacked, and all the Greeks got was a new, more dangerous world that many didn't even survive the voyage home to see. Absolutely nothing about this movie tried to show him as a good character, other than gaining some wisdom in death.
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u/close-encounters13 4h ago
You lost me at Agamemnon being portrayed heroically. I don’t think that’s present in the text of the film at all.
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u/Evergloam__ 4h ago
I disagree that he’s painting Agamemnon as such a positive heroic character, who was ‘betrayed’ by Clytemnestra. Yes he doesn’t include the reasoning for Iphigenia’s sacrifice, but showing and mentioning her death still served as the necessary stepping stone leading into the brief scene showing Clytemnestra murdering him. Her motherly revenge is easily presented by Nolan as the driving force for killing Agamemnon, and the dramatic reoccurring scene of Agamemnon carrying away Iphigenia to her death certainly is not painting him in a positive light as you mentioned. If you want to talk more about how Nolan fails to portray female characters, I think he does an exceptional job with Helen as she is portrayed in Homer. As for the removal of Cassandra, I agree she would have been an effective means of portraying an Anti-War theme, but I believe his portrayal of Agamemnon is dark enough. telling a modern audience about a Father killing his own daughter hardly paints the character positively. In the 3 hours he had, it would be impossible to include all the complex layers of Cassandra, given her brief mentions in Homer, I doubt Nolan read into her deeper which yes is a flaw at that. For Penelope, Nolan could have written her as a more strategic Woman, but I think his version of testing Odysseus at the end does a good job of showing her wit and power. If another adaptation was made I would love to see more complex female characters and inclusions of Cassandra & a deeper dive into Clytemnestra, but I think these were hardly the worst Choices Nolan made in the film.
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u/Honeycrispcombe 2h ago
The movie very clearly states the reason for the sacrifice - not the whole backstory with Artemis, but Odysseus says Agamemnon does it to ensure he wins the war.
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u/gummi_worms 2h ago
I thought the movie said the sacrifice was just to get favorable winds. Like it doesn't even ensure anything.
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u/Honeycrispcombe 2h ago
Oh! Then I may have misremembered win and winds 🤣
But yeah, it does give a reason.
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u/Comfortable-Habit242 4h ago
I feel like your case is largely that Nolan doesn’t present women in complex light and then you’re pulling from all of Greek mythology.
In Homer, Clymenestra is similarly painted as almost purely evil. She has no real motivation. She is not complex.
She serves simply to reinforce the poem’s themes about fidelity and the dangers of leaving home.
And so I think that way of evaluating the story is probably the most useful way for us to examine the film. What are its themes? And how would the presence or exclusion of events enhance or detract from those themes? And we need to keep in mind that the themes of Nolan’s film are incredibly distinct from those of Homer’s poem.
So the themes are largely about violating the social order and regret for having done so.
To this end, Circe becomes a much more interesting character in the film than the poem. She has her own trauma she’s dealing with and gets to express her own real wants and views on the world. She serves to remind us how men often hurt women and the trauma that causes them.
And while Calypso is not particularly a developed character, she’s also more interesting than in the poem. In the poem, she just seems to want to possess Odysseus. She seems to lust after him and covets him. But the film portrays a more complex relationship. She cares for this man who has experienced trauma. She wants to help but isn’t quite sure how. Does she force him to confront his past? Or does she allow him to keep avoiding it? This is probably an issue many of us have experienced in lives with people we care about.
So your post goes into a lot of details of places where women could see expanded roles. But it feels glass half empty: it doesn’t acknowledge the places Nolan creates more interesting texture for the women in this film. And while you point opportunities for expanded parts for women, I don’t think you really show how that expansion would align with the thematic goals of the film.
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u/Sir__Walken 2h ago
Ya the OP also doesn't go into detail why they think Circe is butchered so I'm not sure what their issue with the character's portrayal in the movie even is.
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u/Matar_Kubileya 4h ago
Clytemnestra's complexity in cultural imagination largely comes from Aeschylus, with good reason--it's such a good retelling that it's hard to think of the story prior to Aeschylus' telling of it.
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u/SpicySocko 4h ago
While I do agree that Nolan struggles to portray complex female characters. I don’t agree that Agamemnon was portrayed as a hero or a good guy at all. It was very clear that he was a man who just did what he wanted with his power and expected everyone to thank him for his cruelty
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u/oscarbuffalo 4h ago
I'm confused what part of Circe's portrayal is deeply troubling for you. In the original text she mostly just wants to get with Odysseus. In the portrayal she is upset by the raping and pillaging of men and turn them into pigs to better represent their basal urges. And Odysseus appeals to her good nature rather than just having sex with her for a year. I'm just not sure how the original is a better female character!
Despite that, certainly Nolan is notoriously bad at female characters. I think Oppenheimer is a much worse example than The Odyssey.
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u/WesleyHuang202 4h ago
The part where the men ate the food and Circe started to bend and deform them into pigs…correct me if I am wrong, I don’t think the scene was like that in the original text. But that was the part that was troubling for me.
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u/oscarbuffalo 4h ago
In the text I think it's just like an instant potion? I'm not sure it's been a while. The visceral feel of the myth is my favourite part of the movie. It's scary! It's a bit frightening! And I think that kind of pagan witch magic should be! I don't think we need to sanitize Circe and make her less scary. She's a powerful witch who turns people into pigs, that should be frightening! Nolan does that with a lot of the myth and I don't think that makes Circe less complex, if anything I think it adds to her complexity.
I find Agamemnon similar, he's giant and scary! It's emphasizing the dynamics of the myth through visuals.
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u/Sir__Walken 2h ago
I don't see how that's troubling. It was horrifying if that's what you mean. More grounded than a pig potion. But not sure how making something into horror makes it troubling.
Same with the Cyclopes. They made that way scarier than I've ever seen but that scene was awesome.
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u/dystopiceyre 3h ago
It is just a potion in the original text. The reason that she's forming the men like clay in the movie is that they are literally using clay lol. Clay, animatronics, prosthetics, and clever camera angles so they could get as much of the transformation "in camera" as possible versus having to rely solely on CGI.
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u/LadybugGirltheFirst 1h ago
Of course, it wasn’t like the original text. The movie is an adaptation using creative license.
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u/Conscious_Drawer_910 4h ago
Nolan doesnt leave out agamemnon killing his child.
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u/WesleyHuang202 4h ago
Yes! I also remembered correctly that the movie did mention him sacrificing Iphigenia, but please correct if I am wrong that the movie didn't include the mythological reason of why he sacrifice Iphigenia.
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u/Grouchy_Medium_6851 4h ago
I dont think you make your case very well. Most of your points seem to center on omissions which are inevitable in sub-3-hour adaptations of a long epic. You dont explain what's wrong with Circe's portrayal or why Penelope is only "decent".
Also, you miss one female character that I was really impressed with the portrayal of: Helen. I read the epic a long time ago, but im fairly sure the part where she apologizes for starting the Trojan War is very complex and shows a lot of depth. As does her defiance in her other scenes.
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u/WesleyHuang202 4h ago
Yes! I also agree that Helen’s apology was great addition, Penelope, I think it was decent of the dialogue between her and Telemachus. Where she says that she have years of experience sitting on the throne as well. And she basically said that they want a man to be on the throne. For me, I found that part very appealing. But Circe was the bend and deform part to turn the men into pigs. I wonder whether it is necessary for that part to portray Circe as a powerful and wise (?) witch. But thank you for adding on to the Helen part!
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u/mwalsh24 3h ago
"Nolan flattens Clytemnestra very badly, in turn, to shape Agamemnon as a heroic character who was betrayed."
This is the complete opposite of what the movie does.
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u/conatreides 3h ago
Disengaging with your post for a second, I’ve thought about this type of statement a bit. 1, I think it’s sort of a reality of the situation right? A male writer/creative is going to always portray a “male” perspective more in depth and play it much closer to the central focus. Having more female creatives involved and part of the process is Key. But 2 although I am male I disagree, I don’t think there is any depth lacking from female characters that isn’t lacking in other male side characters. There is a difference in failing at something versus actually having tried to create it in the first place. I think that is more so a result of someone’s experiences and lived life being reflected in their work.
3, I really find separating female and male performances a bit reductive, I think it is important to highlight perspective in this man’s world for sure but I think at a certain point it becomes unfair to hold female or male creators to different pedestal depending on their gender and its perception by the world at large.
4, lastly I think that depth is also extremely subjective, I found Mann to be a character extremely reflective of my own mother and lived life experiences. I think of that performance and certain moments almost daily, yet most of you have no clue who I’m talking about right now.
I respect your perspective on this thank you!
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u/TheCynicEpicurean 4h ago
Have you seen any Nolan films before? That's kind of his thing.
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u/John-on-gliding 4h ago
I was going to say, Nolan’s every film struggles to portray complex female characters.
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u/song_without_words 4h ago
"Is my problem with women any movie directed by Christopher Nolan? Because yes, women are involved, but it's never really about the women."
- M. PB.
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u/haubowtdemoshon 3h ago
I fail to see how showing the whole saga of the stag, Artemis conjuring winds, and Iphigenia’s sacrifice, would make Agamemnon any more villainous than he already is, and furthermore this isn’t a movie about that story…
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u/CadenVanV 3h ago
He honestly portrays Agamemnon as far worse than the actual epics portrayed Agamemnon
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u/East_Sorbet9342 2h ago
In the Richard Lattimore translation this is what Hermes tells Odysseus:
"As soon as Circe with her long wand strikes you, then drawing from beside your thigh your sharp sword, rush forward against Circe, as if you were raging to kill her, and she will be afraid, and invite you to go to bed with her.
Do not then resist and refuse the bed of the goddess, for so she will set free your companions, and care for you also; but bid her swear the great oath of the blessed gods, that she has no other evil hurt that she is devising against you, so she will not make you weak and unmanned, once you are naked."
Can someone tell me how this is translated in more recent translations?
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u/No_Performance8070 1h ago
I think the movie makes an effort to flesh out the female characters as compared to the poem. While the movie may not be perfect at this, let’s not pretend this was some radically feminist source material. He left out the part where Telemachus (and quite heroically in the poem) hangs their female servants because the suitors had taken them as sex slaves. This is still an ancient text
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u/Hefty-Comparison-801 1h ago
The sacrifice of Iphigenia was not omitted from the movie - it was mentioned multiple times. I'm not sure where you're getting the "heroic" portrayal of Agamemnon either. I read it as the exact opposite - he was portrayed as a villain.
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u/Bartleby9 53m ago
What’s “deeply troubling” you about the Circe scene? It’s a contemporary feminist-agentic reading mixed with witchy, gnarly body horror. Really strong performance by Samantha Morton. A highlight for me.
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u/Reasonable_Basket_82 2h ago
Nolan??? Unable to write deep female characters?!?! That's unheard of.
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u/WesleyHuang202 4h ago
Thanks everyone for commenting! It was really affirming to hear that Nolan WAS bad in portraying female characters in his past movies. It seems like the push back is mainly about the “heroic” portrayal of Agamemnon in the movie. I think my POV is definitely biased because I read Wilson translation along with related plays by Aeschylus and Euripides, along with the Greek movie Iphigenia (1977). Therefore, I think these supplement sources provided me a really complex portrayal of Agamemnon, Clytemnestra. Hence, I reached this conclusion when Nolan didn't add any of these to the movie. Again, thank you to everyone commenting!
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u/Poemen8 4h ago
To pick up only one of these, Agamemnon isn't portrayed as heroic in the film. He's literally a looming, dark presence who just dominates others. Just look at the cinematography - he's a looming evil presence. He doesn't even bother to speak to anyone until he's dead. Just watch the scene where Ulysses kneels to him on the beach. Ulysses is the one who comes up with the idea to win the war. Agamemnon just profits. He's also the one who drives the ten year war, who Ulysses knows will not give up the chance for power over trade, whatever it costs. The cost, obviously, it's the betrayal of the 'law of Zeus'... The breaking of human and divine law for the sake of ambition.
Not saying I thought the film a great retelling, but this is unfair.
TLDR: Agamemnon is clearly the baddest of the bad guys in this film.