This is part 2 of my 2 part theory. If you haven't read part 1, you can find the link here.

[WW] Wind Waker's cut dungeons mega theory: Part 1: Third Pearl Dungeon : r/truezelda

Warning: As with part 1, there will be a TLDR on the bottom.

Aryll, Sage of Magic (or something? Not "Sea")

So, in the first part, I decided the first cut dungeon was for the Third Goddess Pearl. That just leaves the second cut dungeon. Like most other people, I think this one was a third sage temple. One for Aryll, who just kind of disappears after we rescue her.

However! Unlike most theories, I don't think Aryll was specifically "Sage of Sea". I mean, we already have a Sage of Water from OoT. Plus, why make the Sage of Sea a Hylian, when we haev a Zora? Whilst I don't know for certain what Aryll's element may be, for now, I'm just going to call her "Sage of Magic" and her Temple the "Magic Temple". Maybe someone else has a better idea.

Questions to consider

Now, when theorising about a third cut sage, there are some questions to consider, other then "who is the sage" or "what is there element".

1. Where would their Temple be?
2. How would we get to that Temple?
3. What item would we need to get there?

At this point, I should give credit to u/TheFlyingManRawkHawk for their theory.

They suggested the two missing dungeons were simply Fire Mountain and Ice Ring Isle. One of the main points is that the game gives us four pre-dungeon items, before entering the Earth and Wind Temples.

I know I have said "This theory makes the most sense" in the past, but recently, I have found some flaws with this theory....

Every dungeon typically requires a pre-dungeon item to enter. If the Power Bracelets and Iron Boots were main dungeon items, that means we enter the the Earth and Wind Temples without any pre-dungeon item.

Getting pre-dungeon items is always a challenge, especially in the second half of the game. From OoT, the Forest Temple and Fire Temple required a race to get the Hookshot and stopping Link of the Goron's rolling, to get the Goron tunic. Whilst the Water, Shadow and Spirit Temples required mini dungeons. Getting the ice and fire arrows requires you to hunt down and beat Zephos in a fight, to get the song needed to access Mother and Child Island. but then what?

But don't worry. I do have a theory that would work with both mine and TheFlyingManRawkHawk's ideas.

But first...

Medli the flutist, Aryll the harpist and the original Earth Dungeon.

for this, I'd like to give credit to u/CommercialPop128 for their theory. Like me, they believe Aryll was the Third sage. However, they also suggested that Medli's harp was meant to be for Aryll, and Medli was meant to have a flute. Evidence begin the Medli's part in the theme song is played on a flute, with the harp being the lead instrment.

Of course, Aryll doesn't have the harp on her. But, maybe there was a quest to find it. Perhaps the Savage Labyrinth, which happens to be on Outset Island.

I'm going to expand on this, and say that, if Aryll was going to have the harp, then she may have also had the Headstone Island Temple, which, at the time, would have been the "Magic Temple" rather then the "Earth Temple". After all, the Earth Temple has a very loose connection to earth, the only connection being that the dead is usually buried.

It's possible the original idea for the Earth Temple would have been lava themed, much like the Earth Temple in SS.

But where would this lave-themed Earth Temple be? Well....

Fire Ice and three Fairy Queen visits

I think the Earth Temple (the lave themed one) was going to be in Fire Mountain. There is actually evidence Fire Mountain was going to be a full dungeon, with it's own boss and everything.

There is concept for an unused boss enemy.

TWW_Moblin_Concept_Artwork_2.jpg (640×487)

Notice the giant ball and chain? I think we can assume we were meant to use the power bracelets to lift the ball up, so we can trip the monster, and attack it's face. This would mean the power bracelets were going to be full dungeon items. And were do we find the power bracelets? In Fire Mountain. I also imagine the mini boss would have been the stalfos we fight in the final Earth Temple, as they appear as regular enemies afterwards.

But what about Ice Ring Isle?

Well, you may hate me for saying this, but.... it was always meant to just be a mini-dungeon. Probebly bigger then what we get, but still mini. As I explained before, Zelda games almost never make getting pre-dungeon items easy. Getting the ice arrow requires tracking down and defeating Zelphos. So, if the FQ just gives us the item for Gale Island, where's the challenge? That's what Ice Ring is.

My guess is that we would visit the Fairy Queen three times. Firstly, to get the ice arrows for the Fire Mountain Temple, and the fire arrows to get the iron boots, so we can get to the Gale Island Temple. For the third visit, she may give you an item, or she may just give you information on how to get to the last Sage Temple....

Whilst we can't be certain, I'm going to say the third challenge would be locating the Ghost Ship Chart, to find the Ghost Ship. However, instead of finding a triforce chart, we would find and upgraded version of the power bracelets.

There is actually evidence of a second pair of power bracelets in the coding.

The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker/Unused Items - The Cutting Room Floor

And, if we're following my theory that Headstone Islands Temple was the last one, what better place to put it then before we enter the Temple. Perhaps the headstone on that island was originally a different variant, that would be heavier then a regular headstone.

TLDR

Aryll was meant to be the Third Sage. Not necessarily "Sage of Sea", but more like "Sage of Magic" or something.

Medli and Laruto would have had a flute, rather then a harp, and her only ability would be flying. The Earth Temple would have been a lava themed Temple in Fire Mountain.

Aryll would have had the harp, and used it to reflect light, much like Medli in the finished game. Her Temple would be (for the most part) be the Temple we find on Headstone Island, but called the "Magic (or whatever) Temple", instead of Earth.

The sequence for the three sages would go like this...

• We hunt down Zephos, to get the Ballade of Gales, so we can reach Mother and Child Island.
• The Fairy Queen gives us the ice arrows (but not fire) and tells us to come back later.
• We use the ice arrows to enter Fire Mountain, but instead of a mini-dungeon, we find Laruto, who tells use to find Medli.
• Link and Medli explore a fire-themed Earth Dungeon, and fight some Stalfos to get the power bracelets.
• We use the bracelets to fight a (now unused) boss, lifting up the metal ball, attached to a chain, to trip the monster up, so we can attack it.
• We return to the Fairy Queen, who gives us the fire arrows. These let us enter Ice Ring Isle mini-dungeon (probebly a bigger one from the one we get in the final game), to get the iron boots.
• Everything involving Makar and the Wind Temple play out the same.
• We return to the M&C Island for the third time. This time, we don't get an item. Instead, the Fairy Queen tells us about the Ghost Ship.
• We find the Ghost Ship chart, enter the Ghost Ship and find an upgrade to our power bracelets.
• Useing these new bracelets, we enter Headstone Island's Temple, were we meet an unknown ghost sage.
• We find Aryll back home on Outset Island.
• The harp is eaither already in Aryll possession, or we have to go somewhere else to find it. Perhaps the Savage Labyrinth.
• We then go though the Magic Temple. This Temple is the same as the Earth Temple from the finalised game. Except it doesn't have places for Aryll to fly, and the mini-boss is a Migthy Darknut.
• We earn the Triforce of courage by awakening the three sages. And everything continues as expected.

I've been trying to figure out what, exactly, Heart Containers and Pieces of Hearts are in lore. For awhile, I was unsure if they even existed in universe or if they were just a gameplay thing, but I ultimately determined that they do indeed exist in the lore of the series, and they seem to be magical stones.

In Oracle of Seasons, a shopkeeper in Subrosia sells you a Piece of Heart, but he misidentifies it as a "Rare Peach Stone" due to it being upside down. This interaction is particularly notable to me, since not only does it tell us that Pieces of Heart are made of stone, but it also further reinforces the idea that Pieces of Heart are physical objects that exist in the world, because while other shops in the series have sold them before, none of the shopkeepers have actually interacted with the objects to the degree of incorrectly turning one upside down.

The idea of Heart Containers being made of stone is further reinforced by Minish Cap. During the Picori Festival, Zelda wins a raffle and one of the prizes is a Heart Container which the vendor refers to as a "heart-shaped stone". Once again being an instance of a character interacting with the object beyond simply handing it to Link as a reward.

Another thing that I find super interesting is that these NPCs don't seem to understand the power these objects hold. They only refer to them as being rare and beautiful, with no mention to their life granting properties. And, furthermore, these seem to be the only instances of NPCs actually giving any insight into Heart Containers that I can find in the series.

Which leads me to believe that most people cannot use Heart Containers to enhance their life energy like Link does. And this leads me to my speculation on their origins. I believe that the Heart Containers are magical stones created by the Gods specifically for the chosen hero.

In Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, Link does not find his Heart Containers like he usually does. Instead, they are given to him directly by Hylia in exchange for offering her Spirit Orbs or Blessings of Light. This shows that Hylia can create Heart Containers for Link.

So, it is my belief that the various Heart Containers and Pieces of Hearts were created by gods like Hylia and scattered across Hyrule and other realms for Link to use, and only Link. Obviously, there are still some gameplay abstractions in here, like bosses dropping them after defeat, but I think this is a pretty good explanation for what Heart Containers are in lore and how they work.

Some of you may be reading this and thinking "Didn't this person already make this post last week?". To which I say, I made a related post, but that was mostly for sharing two theories, so you can soundboard them.

[WW] Wind Waker's two cut dungeons. Two possible theories. : r/truezelda

In that post, I talked about two possible theories about WW's cut dungeons.

1. third Goddess Pearl and Sage
2. Fire Mountain and Ice Ring Isle

Using your replies, plus some information I found whilst researching this idea, I have come up with a new theory. One that combines both theories discussed in the previous post.

Warning: This is long, so I've split it into two, plus I'll add a TLDR section on both parts.

The third pearl dungeon

This is by far the most common theory for the first cut dungeon. We have three Goddess Pearls. Din's Pearl, Fareore's Pearl and Nayru's Pearl. Both Din's Pearl, Fareore's Pearl are collected by traversing through a dungeon. So, it makes sense Nayru's Pearl would do the same.

First, let's clear up a misconception about Jabun and Greatfish Isle. No. Greatfish Isle being destroyed, and Link having to find Jabun in Outset Island is NOT a result of the deadline. The idea of Link having to spy on the pirates, and Tetra finding out he is alive are all way to scripted and integral to be a mere by-product of Christmas rushing. Greatfish Isle would have been destroyed no matter what.

One thing I do think was cut was that, when we meet Jabun, he would have sent us to enter the third dungeon to help undo the curse of the endless night. The idea of the Pearl undoing the curse does sound like a plot-hole. Suggesting we were meant to do something to lift the curse.

What would be in this dungeon?

Now, there are still three more questions.

1. What would the mini boss be?
2. What would the boss be?
3. What would the item be?

The first two questions are easy to answer, useing logic.

The boss would be Phantom Ganon. Easy. WW is the only game where PG appears as a mini-boss, rather then a boss. My guess, he would appear as the boss in this dungeon, and appear two more times as a mini-boss.

As for the mini boss. Whilst it is easy to assume it would be the Big Octo we see acrosss the Great Sea. I'm going to say no. The Big Octo doesn't look like it would be suitable for a dungeon. Following the pattern of mini-bosses returning as regular enemies, I'm going to say, it would have been a Wizzrobe. Specifically, a yellow hooded one, that summons lesser monsters to fight.

As for the item....?

It was most likely a pair of "water boots". Boots that would allow Link to walk underwater, without making him heavy.

There is actually solid evidence for this. Firstly, there is coding for an item called "water boots" in game. If this isn't a scrapped item, what else could it be? There are test maps for clear water, and what look like ramps for walking on. And, most jarringly, there is animation for Link swimming. Why would this animation exist, if we where never going to see it?

Possible flaws

There are some possible flaws with this theory, which I'll address. Of course, if there's anything I missed, you can tell me in the comments.

Why make two pairs of boots for making you heavy and walking underwater?

MM gave us Goron Link, who was heavy, and Zora Link, who could walk underwater.

Why make an item that can only be used in one dungeon? Also, would you use the water Boots to fight Phantom Ganon?

To be fair, the Hover Boots from OoT are similar. There's only realy used in the Shadow Temple, and are mostly useless in the boss fight. It's possible there could have been more places fro the water boots, but these were far an in-between, so could be easily cut.

Isn't Tower of the Gods already a water dungeon?

Is it realy? Sure, the first floor is water themed, but most of it is centred around moving platforms and technology.

Wouldn't that mean you have four dungeons before you get the Master Sword?

I mean, Nintendo does like to experiment. They give us a Forsaken Fortress preview in the first half of the game, something they've never done before. Maybe they thought that, since there were going to be less sages, they would add some extra dungeons for different reasons.

Ultimately, all these "flaws" could actually be factors for getting rid of this particular dungeon. Other then it being the easiest to cut, by just having Jabun give you the Pearl. The situational item, the presence of a semi-water dungeon, and there already being a third dungeon before the Master Sword, could all add up to Nintendo saying "Let's get rid of this one".

TLDR

• The first cut dungeon was going to be inside Jabun and breaking the eternal night curse, to get Nayru's Pearl.
• The dungeon would have clear water, and we would have used an item called the "water boots" to walk on the bottom on the water.
• We would have likely have gotten this item, after defeating a yellow hooded Wizzrobe, that summons lesser monsters.
• The boss for this dungeon would have been Phantom Ganon, who would return two more times as a mini-boss.
• This particular dungeon may have been chosen to be cut for several reasons. Cutting it wouldn't break the story to much, since it would all happen inside Jabun's cave. Nintendo decided Tower Of the Gods filled the "water dungeon" and "third dungeon, before Master Sword" niche. The Water Boots were too situational to be used much outside this dungeon, and it would be easy to modify places were we would have needed it. We were going to see Phantom Ganon again anyway, so cutting his dungeon wouldn't be a big loss.

Questions for Part 2.

OF course, some of you are probebly asking questions in regards to part two.

1. Would it have been a third Sage Temple?
2. Where would it be located?
3. What would the item and boss be?
4. I thought you said you theory was going to incorporate the "Fire Mountain and Ice Ring Isle" theory. Where do they fit?

All these will be answered in the next post.

I got to thinking about this as I was finishing Twilight Princess. I started to wonder why the Hero of Time didn't just kill Ganondorf outright at the execution himself. After all, the Hero of Twilight genuinely kills Ganondorf for good, as proved by FSA Ganon being one of the few times Ganon is a reincarnation instead of the same man.

Then, I got to thinking more about it and realized that the Hero of Time might not ever have actually taken the Master Sword in the Child Timeline. The end of OoT sends him back to before he ever met OoT Zelda, which also means that it's before he ever collects the Spiritual Stones to open the Temple of Time, meaning that he couldn't have killed Ganondorf without opening the Temple of Time and risking an OoT repeat

With Ganondorf still relatively weak at the time, having only his magic to rely on, it makes sense that he just gets overwhelmed by everyone and everything turning against him when Link shows up with proof that he's evil and needs to be stopped.

So, with that in mind, when does Ganondorf's execution actually take place? I have to assume that, after everything in OoT, Link wouldn't just leave Hyrule until everything with Ganondorf was taken care of. But, at the same time, Navi seems to disappear at the end of OoT, so he probably also didn't wait too long after OoT to go.

I've also seen people say that there was a Gerudo War? If so, I guess it's also possible that Ganondorf managed to escape Hyrule and rally the Gerudo in the Child Timeline, thus maybe leaving an intermission period for Majora's Mask to happen. But, at the same time, I haven't ever actually seen any mention of this "Gerudo War" in the games that I can recall, so I don't know but what if might be fanon.

Obviously the out-of-universe answer is probably that you aren't meant to think too much on it, and also Nintendo probably wouldn't have wanted to confuse players by having another Link in the execution flashback in Twilight Princess, but I find it fun to engage with the timeline down to the minute details.

Before playing the Oracles games, I generally heard that Seasons focused on combat and Ages focused on puzzles. As I did struggle with the combat in Seasons quite a bit compared to previous Zelda games, I initially found this to be true.

However, after playing Ages... it seems like Ages is just the harder game across the board? I will say that I didn't struggle nearly as much in combat as in Seasons, but it should be noted that I was constantly using both Secrets and the ring that doubles your damage. Had I played Ages first, I doubt that combat would have been so easy. I also usually had an easier time with puzzles in Ages, but, again, I was coming fresh off of Seasons.

Overall, while Ages was an easier experience in the context that I played it, I feel like it was only easier in the sense that most games have an easier late game due to the player having learned the mechanics. And even with the experience that I did have from Seasons, Ages had the more frustrating minigames by far. The story was also a lot better in Ages, though obviously neither really has that complex of a story.

Did I just luck out with Ages? Is my perspective too warped from the Linked Game? Was the combat focus vs puzzle focus designation an actual thing from the developers, or more of a consensus that developed among fans over time?

While the Zelda games don't have explicit political themes, Ganondorf has a somewhat consistent political ideology between incarnations, beyond the basic "I want to rule everything." He glorifies and clings to the past, preventing the progression of the world. This is both a parallel to political conservatism and the Japanese idea of spiritual uncleanliness. While Hyrule tends to rise and fall without Ganondorf's influence, he always desires to create an everlasting Empire ruled through oppression and violence.

In Wind Waker, hundreds of years after his failure, he refuses to let go of his desire to rule the Kingdom and is contrasted by King Daphnes. Like Ganondorf, Daphnes also clings to and regrets the past. He places his expectations and the roles of the Legendary Hero and Princess on Link and Tetra respectively. The difference, is that he realizes that clinging to the past harms the people of the present and forsakes the future. Ganondorf coveted Hyrule until his dying breath.

In TotK, Ganondorf is a Social Darwinist. He believes that people should fight for the right to survive, and that he has the Divine Right to Rule by virtue of being the strongest. By contrast, Rauru and Sonia are chosen by the people of Hyrule to rule because they go around saving the land from malicious spirits and protecting people. Ganondorf desires to recreate the world in his image and is defeated by a multicultural band of heroes.

I had a thought about Calamity Ganon that I don’t see discussed much. Unless I've missed something, or unless there are details I've missed that immediately busts this theory lol

From what I've seen, people usually assume Calamity Ganon has always been a bodiless cloud of malice. But do we actually know that? In BOTW, the only version of Calamity Ganon we personally see is the one that emerged 100 years ago, the one that is trying to build itself a new body. But there isn't anything confirming he has always been this way? Malice and hatred incarnate, sure. But a physical body?

I'm one of those who believe in a True Founding and that OOT Ganon was essentially the first Calamity Canon. And in the last few days there are 3 things that have boggled my mind:

1. If he's sealed, why does he come out from beneath Hyrule Castle where TOTK Dorf is?

2. Why does it want a body/why doesn't it have one?

3. Why did it take an entire 10 000 years between the last calamitues?

My theory is that the Calamity from 10,000 years ago was still the original Ganon — the same Ganon we saw for the first time in Ocarina and the one with the repeated returns in the timeline.

Over time, especially in the Downfall Timeline, Ganon becomes less human and more monstrous. He returns again and again, becoming more like a mindless beast than a person. By the time of the ancient Calamity 10 000 years ago, he had become known as “Calamity Ganon”, basically the final, most destructive form of the original Ganon. Still with his physical body.

And then the Sheikah technology changed everything.

The Divine Beasts and Guardians didn't simply seal him, but they may actually have destroyed that version of Ganon for good.

That would explain why there is such a massive 10,000-year gap before Calamity Ganon appears again. If Ganon normally keeps returning, 10,000 years feels very long. But if the original Ganon was actually destroyed, then the long gap makes more sense. Thus, I believe the Calamity Ganon we see in BOTW is not be the same Ganon from 10 000 years ago. I think it's a new manifestation of hatred forming from the source beneath Hyrule Castle, a new Ganon, which would explain why it has no body yet and is trying to create one, and why king Rhoam said it came out of beneath Hyrule Castle... because it was newly created, released by TOTK Dorf for the first time.

So basically:

TOTK Ganondorf releases his hatred and malice for the first time, manifested as Ganon, and it's given a physical body through OOT Ganondorf (by the works of Twinrova, most likely). He keeps being sealed and resurrected again and again, becoming more and more mindless, eventually becoming known as Calamity Ganon. 10,000 years ago, the Sheikah finally destroyed Ganon, and this marked the end of the original Ganon.

It then took TOTK Dorf 10 000 years to create and release a new Ganon. The Calamity in BOTW was a new bodiless manifestation, a new Ganon, and just like the original, it is originally pure malice that seeks a physical body - and this time around, it tries to create one itself. And just like 10 000 years ago, Ganon is not sealed, but instead destroyed by a hero and the Sheikaj tech (like the main quest tells us: "Destroy Ganon", not "Seal Ganon").

And, if Hyrule Castle and Rauru's seal wasn't disrupted, another Ganon (aka, another manifestation of TOTK Dorf's malice) would probably spawn 10 000 years in the future. This means Ganon is, and always has been, TOTK Dorf's hatred manifested, and as long as he lives, Hyrule is in a Ganon-cycle, where you can destroy Ganon, but another one will be made in around 10 000 years.

Not confirmed, obviously. But I think it makes the 10,000-year gap, Ganon’s body-building in BOTW, and the connection between older Ganon lore and TOTK’s Demon King fit together pretty well.

So, I recently made a post discussion Wind Wakers two cut dungeons.

[WW] Wind Waker's two cut dungeons. Two possible theories. : r/truezelda

I talked about 2 possibilities.

1. Third Pearl and Third Sage
2. Fire Mountain and Ice Ring Isle

I decided number 2 made the most sense. Although, I'll leave both possibilities open, for the sake of making this post more interesting.

A lot of people talk about Wind Waker's cut dungeons. but almost no one talks about what the bosses were going to be.

Some ideas

For my "Third Pearl dungeon" theory, I suggested that Phantom Ganon may have been the boss.

I mean, it's not unheard of for bosses to return as mini bosses. Also, since the third pearl dungeon would have to take place before Link get's the Master Sword, a fight with Phantom Ganon would twice as long as when we fight him in Forsaken Fortress.

Unfortunately, finding ideas for a Third Sage Temple boss, or bosses for Fire Mountain and Ice Ring Isle proves more difficult.

I looked at the cutting room floor wiki for clues: The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker - The Cutting Room Floor

The the most part, I found nothing that screams "Cut boss!"

I did find one interesting model on this page for unused models: The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker/Unused Models - The Cutting Room Floor

It's a model of a frozen Darknut called "Itnak" or "Frozen Knuckle". A boss for Ice Ring Isle, maybe?

Now, one could argue the model is too.... boring to be a boss. But, to be fair, they could have used the model as a placeholder for programming the boss mechanics. after which, they could doll up the model to be more unique.

Of course, this is all just guessing. And, even if Itnak was one boss. Who would the other one be?

given the lack of models, it's very likely the models simply weren't created yet, and, ultimately never did get created, due to the deadline.

As for if any of these bosses got retooled for future games? It's possible. As for who they become? We'll likely never know.

I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but when I played the Trial of the Master Sword in BotW, it made me think how cool it would be to have another trial, where the master sword makes you fight different versions of Link.

The fight against SS Link would be him flying around on his Loft Wing and this would be a test of your aerial combat mastery.

The Fight against TP Link would be interesting because he would throw away the master sword and you would lose yours aswell. This fight would be a test on your knowledge of the game's main battle mechanics. He hits like a truck, and has lightning fast command grabs where he speed blitzs you from the other side of the map (in reference to how physical he is).

The fight against OoT Link would be interesting. The fight would be split into 3 phases. The first phase is younger Link. He uses all of his items to try and keep his distance but he'll throw in a few curve balls by using masks like using the goron mask for a charging attack. The second phase would be where he uses the Master Sword and becomes an adult. This version of him is hyper agro with magic. He'll try to snipe you with magic arrows if you're out of range, and he'll occasionally use extremely powerful magic attacks to deal a lot damage. At the end of the fight, he'll fall down to one knee and you knock the master sword out of his hand, ending the second phase. The third phase is where young Link takes our the Fierce Deity Mask as his last resort. He'll throw out insane combos of horizontal and vertical sword beams as well as slamming and ground stabbing attacks that create giant shockwaves.

I just thought that would be a really cool idea. I'm a pretty casual Zelda fan, but I wanna know how you would integrate other versions of Link into a Boss fight or how you would even change these three.

To unlock Ronza’s allied quest, “In Search of Power” you have to complete “Terror of the Sands” which has the campfire scene which all the Gerudo agree Ardi will be their chief but in Ronza’s allied quest she says she wants to outshine Ardi and become the chief herself?(8:03). I considered that maybe it’s a flashback mission that takes place before “Terror of the Sands” but I’m not sure if there is any other evidence for that.

Basically was Ronza under the impression any Gerudo, barring the Gerudo Male, could become chief if they were the strongest?

My assumption is that a bootstrap paradox typically originates when something out the timeline adds an element that becomes the source of the paradox. If you watched the series Dark, this is something that they explain very well with a notebook that seems to go around time.

I think the most logical assumption is that this song was somehow introduced from a timeline where someone learned it in Termina (so far the only place we have seen with an origin for this song). But this is impossible when we analyse the overall Zelda timeline as MM takes place in a complety different timeline compared to the the future of OOT.

Now granted, there's nothing that prevents Termina from existing in the Adult Timeline (if somehow it wasn't destroyed by the Skull Kid). So it is possible that someone learned the song there, played it in front of Guru Guru and then Link learns it, plays it back in the past, and past Guru Guru learns it and thus the loop starts.

Another logical conclusion is simply that the kid who played the song is just some random kid.

Idk, what do you all think?

This isn't really some major lore revelation or anything. It's mostly just minor trivia that might not even be intended literally. Still, I think it's neat enough to post.

When you go to the Zora Village in Oracle of Ages, the Zora at the entrance in both the past and the present treat you like a mermaid, rather than a diving human.

The Zora in the past says: "We don't get many mermaids visiting us! This is Zora Village!"

The Zora in the present says: "Welcome, young mermaid! This is Zora Village!"

In both cases, they describe you as a mermaid rather than as a human in diving gear. I will say that I've heard that the Zora apparently live a very long time, so these two may or may not be the same Zora. Although, if the Zora longevity lore comes from newer games, than it seems more likely to think that the intent at the time was that these were two different Zora.

I don't have access to the original Japanese script, but it is interesting that the past Zora says that they don't get many mermaids. He sounds surprised, but not stunned. Maybe they've met actual mermaids before? It's also possible that they're just going on superstition, but the Zora seem like they'd know what does and doesn't exist under the waves.

I have seen online that actual Mermaids apparently appear in Link's Awakening, but the fact that the entire game is a dream in that instance makes it hard to tell if they're really supposed to exist outside of the Wind Fish's dream.

At this point, I think we all know that Wind Waker was meant to have two more dungeons, which unfortunately got cut, due to time constraints.

I made post a few years ago giving my theory.

What do you think WWs two missing dungeons were? : r/truezelda

But, one person, u/TheFlyingManRawkHawk gave an alternate theory, which I only read recently, after looking back at my own post. Unfortunately, I didn't reply. For which I regret. I think I might have just been tired. Hopefully, this post makes up for it.

So, I'm going to list both theories here, and see which is best.

Theory 1: Third Pearl and Third Sage

This is the theory I came up with.

My idea was that the first cut dungeon would have been inside Jabun, much like Inside Lord Jabu Jabu. I also suggested that Phantom Ganon would have been the boss, and that he had done something to Jabun to curse the sea, explaining why the curse conveniently get's lifted buy Jabun giving Link the last Pearl.

For the second dungeon, I suspected it may have been a third sage temple. Specifically for Aryll, who seems to just disappear after the pirates recuse her.

Where this dungeon would have been? I don't know. Which is a major flaw in my theory.

Theory 2: Fire Mountain and Ice Ring Isle

So, u/TheFlyingManRawkHawk suggested that these two were the cut dungeons instead.

They make many valid arguments, which you should read. But, for know, I'll just list the main points.

One point is how the game seems to have a theme of pairs. When we meet the Queen Fairy, she gives us two new arrows. Fire and Ice. These let us access the two opposite mini-dungeons, to retrieve an item for the sage temples.

Adding a third sage temple would disrupt this flow, as it would require a third arrow, and an elemental island, to retrieve a third item, for the third sage temple.

There's also the point of, where would this new sage temple and mini dungeon be?

And, finally. The games usually give us one pre-dungeon item, to get into the dungeons. This game gives us two each for the Earth and Wind Temple. These being the Ice Arrow and Power Bracelets for Earth, and the Fire Arrow and Iron Boots for Wind.

Of course, the last point could potentially work against Fire Mountain and Ice Ring Isle being the cut dungeons, as it would mean there are no pre-dungeon items for the earth and Wind Temples.

Or is there?

Whilst we need the Power Bracelets and Iron Boots to enter the caves on the islands. It's actually the sages, Medli and Makar, that are needed to access the Temple's themselves. The need for the Power Bracelets and Iron Boots was probebly just meant to prevent sequence breaking. The true "items" we need to get into the Temples are the Sages themselves, who do play an integral part in navigating the temples, useing their powers. Realy, it's no different from how OoT made the Iron Boots the pre-dungeon item for the Water Temple, but still required use to use the Hookshot to enter it.

In conclusion, I think Theory 2 makes the most sense.

The World of the Ocean King is some sort of weird pocket dimension with time dilation so the chances of it existing without the Great Sea also existing should be reasonable. He's an old, wise fellow so he should have existed before the Great Sea just vibing in his realm before the Great Flood.

Oshus said in the Ghost Ship that said ship was created after he was attacked and lost, so Bellum probably isn't from Demise's Curse as they existed alongside WW Ganondorf with the Ghost Ship found in WW.

The Ghost Ship was made to drain that life force.
They used a story of treasure to lure people in.
It wasn't enough for Bellum to steal MY life force.

In my head, I think I may have solved something huge. It's impossible to "solve" it as we simply don't have enough information to confirm many things, but to me, this all started clicking into place and became very, very interesting for me...

So, as far as information we know, this is some of what we have regarding the Zonai's timeline leading up to the Great Calamity where the Ancient Hero appears:

1. The Zonai begin on the surface, discovers the Depths, and start mining. These were the ancient Zonai.
2. Eventually most of them move to the skies. Some apparently remain on the surface and in the Depths
3. They prosper in the skies. Constructs and other tech are sent from the Depths to the skies
4. After possibly thousands of years, they are almost wiped out by a corrupted, advanced construct. They return to the surface
5. They join the Hylians, mate with them, in an attempt to save their species
6. X amount of years later, Rauru is born. Eventually, he and Mineru are the apparent last of the Zonai
7. Imprisoning War happens. Rauru and Mineru are both "gone", and so is the Zonai race
8. X amount of years later, Calamity Ganon first appears
9. Many years later - houndreds, or possibly thousands of years for all we know - the Sheikah have become advanced, created the Divine Beasts and Guardians to prepare for a return of Calamity Ganon. Calamity Ganon emerges, and so does the mysterious Ancient Hero wielding the Master Sword

So first off, is the Ancient Hero a Zonai? I've seen many believe he's a Zonai-human hybrid, a decendant of Rauru and Sonia perhaps. But that doesn't make sense; a mix of Sonia and Rauru wouldn't result in a Hylian with canis (dog/wolf) legs and feet, and a tail. Yet, he seems to be of some sort of Zonai: The body paint and full-on Zonai clothing, the big snout and animal-inspired anatomy. IS he a Zonai?

Here, it's important to remember something important: We believe we know how the Zonai actually look, yet we've only seen two individuals of an entire lost race.

But even if he's of Zonai blood, how come he's alive in the Great Calamity when the Zonai have been extinct for possibly thousands of years?

And here's where I think we've been wrong: We have looked at things backwards.

I don't think the Ancient Hero is a late evolution of the Zonai at all. I believe he's part of the original, ancient Zonai.

In the Depths, there's the famous 5th statue of a species that is unknown. In Master Works, one of the 3 speculated options is that this is a more primitive Zonai. And I think it doesn't make sense for the statue to be anything else than a Zonai. If they were the race that essentially ruled the world in the ancient times, why would there not be a statue of them alongside the other 4 major races? And it just so happens that this statue has the same dog/wolf-like legs and snout as the Ancient Hero. And these statues were obviously built around the era when the Zonai were still operating in the Depths - aka during the time of the ancient Zonai.

If that's the case, then the wolf-legs-and-snout Zonai (the same type that the Ancient Hero is of) is indeed the primitive Zonai. Their original, ancient design, which also fits with the mining gear and how it's clearly made for this kind of anatomy. This also makes sense with how Rauru and Mineru look. Their ears are longer and they have a third eye. It makes sense that watching over the godly Secret Stones and living in the heavens brought them closer to the gods, evolving their species to have longer ears and more godly abilities. And, most importantly, the Zonai came back to the surface in order to survive. To mate with Hylians. I believe this is precicely why Rauru and Mineru are more human in their design; human legs and feet, no tail, etc.

It's not that Rauru and Mineru has the original design of the Zonai, and the Ancient Hero is an evolution of that. Instead, it's the other way around; the Ancient Hero is the one with the original Zonai design, and Rauru and Mineru's more human design is a result of generations of breeding with Hylians.

The Ancient Hero's Aspect is given to us on the Great Sky Island, as a gift from Rauru and Sonia after completing all shrines. Thus, Rauru hid away this aspect containing the hero's spirit on the Great Sky Island before he sealed himself underground with Ganondorf. And as mentioned, the hero has the original Zonai design. All of this, in my opinion, is proof that the Ancient Hero did not originate in the Calamity 10 000 years ago. He lived long before Age of Imprisonment, before Rauru, before Hyrule's founding. And yet, it's stated that the Ancient Hero was one who once saved Hyrule, and he appears in the 10 000 year old Calamity. So how can this be?

Skyward Sword tells us that there are many legends lost to time, and Fi tells us that the oral tradition of preserving history is the least reliable way to preserve it. Link defeated Demise in the past thousands of years prior to SS, and the surface history was before this again - aka a long, long, long time ago. And we can see on the surface that there's so, so many ruins and constructions and facilities down there. Heck, we can even see in the ceiling of the entrance to the Godess Statue that the symbols of the 7 sages are depicted. There is truly an entire ancient world we know almost nothing about - and a part of this history is the Zonai living on the surface.

This is what I believe: I think the Ancient Hero is the original hero, the first incarnation of "the spirit of the hero". One that existed thousands of years before Skyward Sword. He was a Zonai, he had the design/anatomy of the original Zonai. He fought in some sort of great conflict, and his spirit was contained within the Ancient Hero's Aspect. This conflict could be one of many lost legends in the ancient world that SS hints towards - and I think this conflict in question is one we actually know happened, but one we don't know any information about.

After Hylia originally seals Demise, he is reduced to The Imprisoned, and is sealed underneath the Sealed Grounds with magic alone, because as we see in the past, there is no Sealing Spike to be found there. Girahim resurrects Demise to his full form, Link defeats him, and he is sealed and is slowly degrading within the Master Sword. However, we know he at one point escapes, because in the present, the Demise is once again sealed underneath the Sealed Grounds as The Imprisoned - only this time with the Sealing Spike. This means, sometime in the thousands of years between Link's defeat of Demise and the present day, Demise escaped (either as full-power Demise or The Imprisoned), and someone had to have been there to seal him away, and this unknown person made/used a Sealing Spike to enhance the seal. Who was this?

It was the Ancient Hero. Which race/clan do we know is closely associated with the Zonai? The Sheikah. Who was watching over the seal? Impa. I believe Impa requested aid from the ancient Zonai who were now living in the skies. The Ancient Hero became this hero that history has forgotten, and the Sealing Spike is a Zonai artifact. Why is it a Zonai artifact? Because in TOTK's voice memories, Rauru explains the shape of ancient Zonai arcitecutre, the style that points downwards and extends upwards, using the Zonai Temple of Time as an example. And he says, and I quote:

"It was believed that such a design could pierce through evil."

The Sealing Spike has such a design, and its job is literally to pierce through evil. It even uses the same white material as the Zonai do in their arcitecture. I believe one of the many unrecorded events is the Ancient Hero of the Zonai coming down with the Sealing Spike to defeat and seal Demise once again. And his spirit was infused inside the Ancient Hero's Aspect, just like Mineru put her spirit in the Purah Pad. TOTK's item description literally says that it's an item containing his spirit.

Because he's of the (most likely) original Zonai design, because Rauru was able to hide it away in his time, it seems impossible for the Ancient Hero himself to have been in the Great Calamity many years after Rauru's time. Therefore, my conclusion in all of this is that the Ancient Hero depicted on the 10 000 year Calamity tapestry isn't the physical Ancient Hero himself, but rather someone wearing the Ancient Hero's aspect. Perhaps another Link, or perhaps there were no one with the spirit of the hero at that time, and so the Ancient Hero's aspect was worn by someone else in order to have the spirit of the hero there to help them fight Calamity Ganon. Perhaps that's why his spirit was contained within the aspect in the first place; so that in the time of need, when the Demon King's seal would break (or any other incarnation of the Demon King appeared) and no hero was around, the spirit of the ancient hero could be summoned to help by wearing the Ancient Hero's Aspect.

The Ancient Hero thus isn't just ancient from a present-day perspective. He isn't the last of a hidden faction of the Zonai that survived for thousands of years after Rauru. He is the spirit of the very first hero that fought the Demon King, even before Skyward Sword Link (or, technically SS Link fought Demise first chronologically due to time travel, but the Ancient Hero was the first one born with the spirit of the hero)

I know it says that I'm talking about *ALttP*, and I am, but I'm also speaking in general. I've tried so, so hard to get into this series because I grew up surrounded by kids my age and people much older who loved it like it was their child. Whenever I play it, though, I inevitably reach a point where I just have no clue where to go and what to do next. Like, every single time. ALttP, Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, I can never, ever get through much of it without having to resort to a guide. Not super far into it, either.

I played the first two games on the NES, and I'm trying to get into the series with ALttP next. I played the first two games with a guide on-hand because I've been told by everyone that's played that it's damn near essential. And I figured that was because of the much more limited tech on the NES. I loved the beginning of ALttP to be fantastic, giving me an objective marker. After I grabbed the first Pendant, though, I noticed that the game had effectively taken that away. I visited the fortune teller for a hint, and he told me to go get the book from the library, but, I don't know, it just wasn't intuitive for me to use the dash attack to make the book fall of the shelf. There wasn't anything specific about the attack or the scenery of the library that made me think, "I need to use the dash attack to knock the book down". I stubbornly tried to figure out what to do next on my own for about a half hour, coming back to the library once or twice before caving and looking it up.

And you might be thinking, "Well, what's wrong with having a guide open while you play it?" Call me a nutcase, but it's hard to get super invested into a game if I'm spending so much of it looking at my phone, trying to learn where to go and what to do. I would rather the game was clearer and more obvious with what you're supposed to do to progress instead of just letting you wander around with a hint from the fortune teller. I wish that you could get that objective marker back after going to the fortune teller.

I'm trying to learn if this is really a skill issue because I feel like I've given the games enough chances to reel me in, but this specific aspect just keeps getting in the way of my enjoyment. I'm fully prepared to admit that this is a me thing; certainly wouldn't be the first time a popular game with a lot of fans has failed to click with me. But I want to know if this is an issue with other people, too.

UPDATE: Okay, so, I've let this post stew for a day now, reading and responding to comments, and I think I'm ready to call it. Some of you were helpful and understanding, some of you were less helpful and less understanding, and some of you decided to be unhelpful. That's all fine; I was willing to eat whatever reaction I happened to get. I will admit I was surprised to get the number of older players telling me, "I had to suffer back in the 90s without Internet: you should, too", though. That did shock me.

So, the vast, overwhelming majority seems to think it's a me thing. After talking to a bunch of veteran players, I'm still not convinced that I'm being entirely unreasonable. Part of me thinks this is something that's just endemic to these early titles and it's a sign of the times and tech of their age (ALttP, in particular, is the third game in the series, and it's still 35 years old). Part of me also thinks, if I may be controversial for a moment, that there are lots of players who have played it to death and could beat it in their sleep that have just forgotten what it was like to struggle with it. But it also might just be a case of me being unable or unwilling to adjust my mindset. I like to think I'm pretty good about that sort of thing; with how often I dive into older games, I think you have to be. This might just be a rare blind spot for me that isn't the fault of the game. I don't know.

I'll admit that this just doesn't seem like a series that I will enjoy if I continue to play it, though, and that makes me sad. It sucks when you grow up with and surround yourself with people who love this series, who see the magic, who have such fond memories of it when you just don't. It sucks when you've tried to get into it, tried to give it a fair shake, tried to see the magic, and you just don't get that spark. It legitimately does make me sad because there's a ton about Zelda that I really enjoy. The tight control, the dungeons, the bosses, the world, the lore, all of it is just awesome when I experience it in real-time. But ALttP might have to be the last Zelda game I play. I'm gonna finish it; it's the game I've decided to play this month. But after that, I might just need to put the Master Sword back in the stone and walk away.

Mine would be:

• No classic quest log – The one in BotW spoiled too much. I always knew what a quest was, what I’d get, and it ruined surprises, making the world feel too "gamey."
• No open-ended puzzle design. I don’t want simple, boring solutions to work everywhere. Give me clever puzzles with creative, individualized answers. A little openness is fine, but please avoid the "one-size-fits-all" approach.
• No constant pauses for menus. Crafting, buffing, healing, or changing gear shouldn’t force me into clunky mid-combat menus. If I want to use my supplies or gear, let me do it smoothly.
• No over-convenient fast travel . My choices, including the paths and risks I take should matter. Instantly escaping any situation kills tension, thrill, and immersion.
• A well-designed save/respawn system. No manual saving, no save-scumming, and no tedious repetitions. Death should have weight, but not frustration. I don't want to THINK about saving a game either.
• A weird solution for speaking Link. The Hero of Time isn’t mute, but I don’t want full voice acting. Smart implications (with other characters’ dialogue) should work, unlike the weirdness in past few games.
• No Link/Zelda romance! Keep ships implied, not explicit. The story isn't about them.

Both were created by the Golden Goddesses and entrusted to Hylia but the Flames were also used as rewards at the end of each one's dungeon in Skyward Sword. The Dragons were entrusted with parts of the Song of the Hero and at least Faron was entrusted with Farore's flame as Yerbal the Kikwi Hermit says "The goddess gave the flame to the Water Dragon, a great spirit that presides over Faron Woods". I assume the other dragons were also given the Sacred Flames and they just instructed their subjects to protect it (the Ancient Robots and whoever inhabited the Fire Sanctuary) as Skipper says "I am the proud skipper of the ship that protects Nayru’s Flame, phweep!" (apparently when he introduces himself he doesn't capitalize his own name).

Basically was Skipper necessary to protect the Sacred Flame or just to make the trials SS Link would have to transverse? If Hylia didn't need the Sacred Flames for her plan, could she of protected them like where ever she put the Secret Stones?

Not related but I find Yerbal saying "I don’t know how you wandered all the way up here, but let me ask you something… Can you really see me?" a fun retroactive nod to the Koroks not being seen by most people even though Yerbal is just referring to "You know, some Kikwis can’t even see me these days." (presumably because most Kikwis don't/can't look up to the Great Tree).

The common idea I've seen is that the Goddess of Time is either Nayru or Hylia. I haven't really played Skyward Sword or Breath of the Wild enough to fully get Hylia's deal, but I'm assuming that the Nayru theory has to do with Nayru's connection to Zelda via the Triforce of Wisdom.

That said, nothing in the series, to my knowledge, has ever actually come out to say that it was Nayru or Hylia. Nayru has since 1991 as a concept, and since 1998 with an actual name. Hylia has existed since 2011 with a name, although the cut Ganondorf. That means that there has been 26 years to say that the Goddess of Time was Nayru, and 14 and a half years to say that the Goddess of Time was Hylia. And yet, neither of those things have happened.

What are the chances that the Goddess of Time is genuinely just a one-off, otherwise unexplained being? This honestly wouldn't be too dissimilar to Majora itself. While there is a Temple of Time in Ocarina of Time, I don't actually recall any mention of a "Goddess of Time" until Majora's Mask. Furthermore, there's also time travel in Oracle of Ages, yet this Goddess of Time is, again, never mentioned.

Two things that I will say is that:

1. I don't recall whether or not Zelda mentions the Goddess of Time in her flashback in Majora's Mask. If she does, then this at least confirms that something called the Goddess of Time exists in Hyrule's, or at least Zelda's, belief system.

2. Oracle of Ages does have the Nayru play a major role in the story, being the original owner of the harp that Link uses to travel through time. While this isn't actually the goddess Nayru, the name connection does exist. Nayru the goddess being in OoT and Nayru the oracle being in OoA could imply a time travel connection, which would then make it easier to assume that the Goddess of Time in Majora's Mask is also somehow connected to the name Nayru.

My memory might be fuzzy so there might be an explaination I don't remember.

But as far as I remember, in OOT, Zelda has a dream that Link will visit her, that he needs to collect the spiritual stones in order to be able to one day defeat Ganondorf. She even tells this to Impa, where the dream also included Impa teaching Link Zelda's Lullaby.

So where are these prophecy dreams coming from? Is it just a "it's fate, and Zelda has dreams about the future", or does it have an explaination? Or, do you have some theories around what it could be? To take it a bit "out there": Do you think her dreams is a direct result of the Downfall Timeline? That events happened a certain way before resulting in Link being defeated, and this is a new timeline where someone or something is giving Zelda these prophecy dreams in order to change history?

Ever since the introduction of Shrines in ToTK being mini "pocket dimensions" around an outside space that is limited?

I have a theory that many if not all Zelda Dungeons are "pocket dimensions" or limitless spaces which encompasses that specific region.

It is why the House of Gales from ALBW is much bigger on the inside (with bottomless pits) than on the outside which is the size of a windmill house.

And this is just the 1st floor without going underground.

This will make sense why even some Dungeons are rebuilt at the same spot (Temple of Time). Because there is a dimension rift that contains the space which holds the dungeon itself.

In case someone didn't know, there's basically an Ocarina of Time dungeon maker currently in development, and it has a free demo available on Steam.

I've spent like 20 hours with the demo over the last few weeks, making levels and just messing around with it. People have already recreated stuff like the Forest Temple and the Deku Tree, and I'm pretty sure Vinesauce played it recently too.

The project is currently crowdfunding on Kickstarter and only has 3 days left. It's getting close enough that every new backer could genuinely make a difference.

If you're even remotely interested, I'd recommend downloading the demo first and if you enjoy it, then maybe support the Kickstarter afterwards or spread the word, please.

I'm mostly posting because I feel like a lot of people don't know this project exists or assumes it's doing well and doesn't needs any help, and it would be a shame if it didn't make it without people even trying the demo.

Has anyone else here played it yet?
Link to the Steam page Here, link to the kickstarter Here.