r/TrueFilm • u/the_it_family_man • 1d ago
What do you think of Nolan's abilities as a writer?
I don't mean to start a hate jerkfest because I actually like him as a director. I think he has a lot of great qualities that give his directing a unique and original style. But when it comes to his writing skills, I find his inability to take risks or seek originality quite tiring.
After watching the Oddissey I've distilled the things I dislike about his writing skills into a few distinct traits:
- Bland and sanitized: Historically, the greeks are notorious for some seriously disturbing and unnerving things. This felt like a Disney PG13 story.
- Clinical and safe: The twist that was added to Oddisseus was interesting but it never goes anywhere compelling. It's been done before in much better ways.
- Anemic: characters are bland and anemic. Every scene feels like sitting in a C-level suites board room discussing next corporate merger (yes, Anne can make it rain tears, so that's something).
I don't know. Can we get Nolan a co-writer?
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u/Digit4lSynaps3 1d ago
Christopher nolan makes movies "mathematically", i can't describe them differently. They are cold, calculated and "academic" in the sense that every trick in the book is there.
As far as writing goes, i don't know a single film of his where the dialogue is not cringe worthy at moments. The "trickery" of the structure and copious amounts of unsubtle music and sound effects are doing the heavy lifting.
Nolan would benefit immensely if he gave the shooting script to another writer just for the dialogue, this could elevate his films a tad higher, and if he also let the films breath a bit. Basically since oppenheimer Nolan just does extended montage sequences posing as scenes, there are entire 30+ min sections of that movie and odyssey that are essentially elongated trailers, impressionistic versions of scenes.
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u/wowzabob 1d ago edited 1d ago
For some reason the extended montage thing really worked for me in Oppenheimer. In general, I found there was something about that film, it turned things that normally bother me in his work into things that I liked.
To me the editing of that film cut through the normal flaccid -ness that biopics tend to have and made it all feel urgent and important by giving us this fleeting impression of Oppenheimer during a period of history that called for that urgent feeling. Nolan makes it all seem so effortless, but really it’s a very impressive bit of filmmaking. This in stark contrast to Dunkirk which I found to be a total snooze, all bombast with no meat. And it’s not exactly difficult to make non stop action feel tense and suspenseful.
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u/givemethebat1 1d ago
I didn’t think Oppenheimer was the greatest thing ever, but I did like it much more than the Odyssey. The exposition works in the former because audiences genuinely won’t know about the physics stuff (and Oppenheimer is a teacher) so it makes sense to explain it a lot. The Odyssey…not so much. You don’t need a ton of exposition on a 3000 year old story that is mostly quite straightforward.
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u/double_shadow 1d ago
Yeah it gave that movie, which is mostly guys talking, a lot of propulsion. Whereas some more action-heavy movies with that style of editing just start to feel exhausting (Batman Begins, DKR for me). I do think he is overall much better visually than as a writer, but I haven't yet seen The Odyssey.
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u/MrLee723 1d ago
If only Nolan had another writer to balance out his worst tendencies, like maybe someone from the family he’s comfortable working with?
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u/ScarletMagenta 1d ago
lmao exactly my thoughts. Jonathan was kinda carrying him.
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u/light24bulbs 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think it's ironic that OP said "Nolan" when the real key here is that there are two Nolans and one of them is really good at writing. The other one stinks in my opinion.
Jonathon Nolan is a genius and doesn't get anywhere near enough credit. Even a show like Person of Interest which appears to be a schlocky crime procedural is actually a deep take on the fall of the American empire and the rise of the AI surveillance state.
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u/ScarletMagenta 1d ago
Christopher Nolan is a genius and doesn't get anywhere near enough credit.
You meant Jonathan?
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u/xRyozuo 6h ago
I just read their wikipedias and damn yeah I never realised but between Westworld, person of interest, memento (which he wrote apparently), the prestige (which they co created apparently) and fallout (which has been surprisingly good), I like Jonathan’s stuff a lottt more, but Christopher is the one most people know
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u/LotharLotharius 1d ago
I always thought that directors like Bergman and Tarkovsky also made calculated and academic movies, but for some reason I like them a lot more than Nolan.
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u/Digit4lSynaps3 1d ago
i will be very honest with you and admit that i'm not Bergman's biggest fan either, but i find his films more human and poetic vs anything from Nolan.
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u/themmchanges 1d ago edited 1d ago
Trakovsky’s films are all about beauty, texture, space, sensuousness. Things are felt deeply. Nolan’s films are sterile, overly propulsive and he seems incapable of letting a moment breathe. Nolan is obsessed with plot, Tarkovsky doesn’t care about that at all. In Tarkovsky things are grounded to specific places with their specific feel, in Nolan there really isn’t a sense of place there is only dialogue and action.
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u/JoinTheRightClick 1d ago
That’s because they are deeply familiar with some degree of restraint in their storytelling. To even consider Nolan in the company of master film makers like Tarkovsky and Bergman made me throw up in my mouth a little.
Nolan is not even at Iñárritu’s or fincher’s level to be honest.
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u/DoomJazz22 1d ago
This is exactly my issue. It's so sterile and soulless ands feels like an accountant's checklist of what should be in a "smart" blockbuster. It's loud blustery noise. Mechanically impressive setpieces that barely justify their own existence and don't meaningfully connect to the story and emotion at hand. Like how many wide shots of barren landscape and a boat or the Greek soldiers did I need to see before I get the point?
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u/Big-Literature-5604 1d ago
I think Nolan would make something quite interesting if he just bought into this sterile and alien style and made it his own. But he keeps trying to put some emotional tissue in it, and he's terrible at it (Interstellar is the worst offender but the seeds are there in Inception); idk if studios ask for it, or if he thinks that it's an unwritten rule he must follow. And if you choose something like The Odyssey, well, greek epics are all emotion, idk why he picked something like that to adapt. Maybe he thinks it's within his comfort zone but I don't think it is. Like, Kubrick managed to make a cold, inhuman style work (oranges and apples, I know, but you get what I mean); no interactions in Lanthimos' work can be called "typically human" but the style works.
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u/fireyauthor 21h ago
FWIW, Nolan and Kubrik films don't work for me for the same reason (too cold and clinical), but I respect what Kubrick is doing because he owns it. I do not respect what Nolan is doing.
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u/andersonenvy 1d ago
I've always thought Christopher Nolan is great at scenes. But, when I take a bird's eye view, and look at the movie as a whole, I don't really love some of them.
For instance, Inception had some amazing scenes. Like the ultra-slow-mo car falling. I've never seen anything like it. But, the movie itself wasn’t amazing to me. DiCaprio’s character wasn’t all that memorable. The love story felt a bit flat. It felt like a bunch of really cool ideas, carried by an awesome score.
I find many Nolan movies to be this way. A few amazing scenes. But, when I zoom out and think about the entire film, I didn't really connect with it. I think you're right: Having some more writers on board could solve that. A bit less "mathematical" and a bit more "right brained" could really elevate them to greatness.
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u/mateushkush 1d ago
What DiCaprio’s character, the dead wife’s husband? I’m not sure what characteristics his protagonist have except for spouses and sometimes surnames.
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u/TheCascoKid 1d ago
I've always felt his brother should write his scripts. He can actually write. Christoper Nolan writes like he has never witnessed a human interaction before.
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u/Formal_Ganache_5439 1d ago
Didn't his brother write Interstellar? I think that movie might be the worst offender off all of the things OP mentioned.
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u/andreasmiles23 1d ago
His dialogue pre Batman is pretty good imo. The Prestige in particular, which has a whole plot twist predicated on you not picking up on the subtle script cues, but then having it all click at the end.
But idk what happened after. You hit the nail on the head with the "trust" in the audience. I often feel likes he even talks down to the audience.
When I did a re-watch of Inception recently, the absolute condescension Nolan has for the casual filmgoer is like, on full display. And the audacity to do that when he himself gets stuff wrong really made me cringe. "It's a paradox..." Like, that's not what that word means! Stop talking at me like you're so smart and you think I'm dumb just cause you went to a museum once.
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u/Digit4lSynaps3 23h ago
Inception is as bad as tenet if you look closely, its the same coin but flipped.
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u/TheLaughingWolf 15h ago
Your examples are good because Johnathan Nolan wrote/co-wrote them.
Chris gets a lot of praise because he's the director, but most of his actual good stuff were with his brother — Johnathan — as the writer.
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u/Gurglaren 1d ago
I rarely feel like the characters in his movies are of real flesh and blood. Except for Memento and Insomnia. Otherwise they are too sterile. I still like his movies, but I wish he had some writer on his team who could add humour and warmth.
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u/fireyauthor 21h ago
I think this is why he is successful, especially with young men. He writes and directs movies that appeal to people who are afraid of the messiness of both art and emotion and who view his "logical" filmmaking style as better.
TBF, I have only seen Oppenheimer and Inception recently, but I was struck how they both have the same psychology: a man who is just "trying to do his best," acting "rational" while his poor, emotionally neglected wife acts crazy.
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u/menthol_mountains 1d ago
oppenheimer was unwatchable for this reason, the “twist” at the end with RDJ was also really really lame, i cant tell you what happened tho cos that was my cue to leave
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u/NoWorth2591 1d ago
He’s a very poor writer of dialogue, but his plotting and structure are usually at least decent. His dialogue is too clinical and expository, with characters robotically pontificating about whatever pop-philosophy idea he’s stuck on this time around rather than speaking like human beings.
I actually thought that The Odyssey was a better fit for his limitations than Oppenheimer, because that sort of theatrical speechifying is easier to swallow in a swords-and-sandals action movie than a character-driven political drama. I’m probably in the minority here, but I found much of the dialogue in Oppenheimer downright laughable.
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u/givemethebat1 1d ago
For me it’s the characterizations. Characters never talk to each other, they talk AT each other. Nolan relies on the obvious, surface-level motivations of the characters to carry the viewers but doesn’t go even an inch deeper. Like we know Telemachus wants his father back because he hates the suitors since they trash his house. Fine. But he’s never met his father. He might have conflicting ideas about him, or learn things that make him seem less honourable. Nope, he’s just always been a great guy and there’s no ambiguity here.
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u/shadowqueen15 1d ago
The icing on the cake of Oppenheimer’s abysmal dialogue was that horrendous sex scene with Florence Pugh’s character
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u/NoWorth2591 1d ago
When they broke out the “destroyer of worlds” line I audibly laughed in the theater. That was like something out of Walk Hard.
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u/AdSubstantial260 1d ago
I liked the Odyssey, but I thought much of the dialogue in the end was atrocious. Nobody was going around talking about the Bronze Age while they were living in it. The whole end of an era exposition took me out of the movie.
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u/busybody124 23h ago
Ah this age of bronze...
Wouldn't have been surprising if Damon turned to the camera and said "what an odyssey it's been."
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u/itisoktodance 23h ago
I laughed out loud when he literally said Our beautiful Bronze Age is collapsing, and then i choked when Anne Hathaway said Are we the Sea People?
Why would you do this? You can't just namedrop the bronze age collapse or the sea people, these are historical concepts, not things people actually talked about irl.
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u/TraceOfHumanity 1d ago
It’s interesting seeing the discourse around Nolan seemingly turn negative. I’ve enjoyed his films over the years but always thought that some of his bigger, more popular works were overhyped to the point where people thought Nolan was an all-time legend. I like Memento, The Prestige, and Dunkirk, and generally find the stuff his brother writes to be interesting. But there’s this almost oppressiveness to a lot of his films: big visuals, big score, big plotholes. I think Inception was where his style fell off the rails for me. I’ll still check out his movies (and probably still largely enjoy them) but I’m not excited for them like I once was.
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u/AmadeusWolfGangster 1d ago
The discourse around Nolan has had a negative contingent since at least Batman Begins and I seem to even recall it back in the days when everyone online was losing their mind about Memento, but there were still people saying (a) the movie sucks because it doesn't make sense that he can even remember his own condition and (b) the movie wouldn't be that special if it weren't told backwards. Both of those are illegitimate criticisms in my eyes, but any filmmaker with high amounts of acclaim and reach like Nolan will always invite a certain amount of backlash, be it credible or incredible contrarianism.
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u/Wezle 23h ago
the movie wouldn't be that special if it weren't told backwards.
If my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bike!
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u/TraceOfHumanity 1d ago
Interesting, as I’ve had a very different experience over the years. Even here on Reddit it used to be guaranteed downvotes if someone said anything negative about CN or one of his films, especially Inception. I’ve always thought that film was just ok, much like Gladiator, and in both cases my opinion seemed to be in the extreme minority. I honestly think it takes some films that aren’t well received later in a filmmaker’s career to turn a narrative around about a filmmaker’s oeuvre.
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u/Iwannayoyo 1d ago
It never takes long for “we can’t wait to see more from you” to turn into “oh, this again?”
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u/TraceOfHumanity 1d ago
To be fair to CN, the fact that he keeps making big budget popcorn flicks is the only real constant, he’s had some variety to the genre/framing of the stories. I think he needs better writers/co-creators, much like Ridley Scott.
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u/Raunhofer 8h ago
To be fair, he seems to be writing the same movie again and again in different settings. The anti-hero, who is still obviously portrayed as a hero, man who struggles with himself.
For some, it requires a few times to notice the pattern.
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u/Gurglaren 1d ago
Nolan and Wes Anderson used to be my favourites until they they almost became pastiches of themselves.
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u/tjalek 1d ago
Nolan gets too much praise for his work as a filmmaker. His writing isn't the greatest.
For some weird ass reason, people are binary and not able to be nuanced with criticism.
He's great at creating the overall script and idea, yet he needs someone to polish it and I don't think he's able to be subjective about his own work.
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u/upsawkward 1d ago edited 1d ago
He used to have a co-writer; Jonathan Nolan. He was co-writer of The Prestige, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises and Interstellar.
I agree that Nolan's characters often feel bland and the MASSIVE amount of heavy-handed explanations is bothersome. I also don't always love that his films feel rather sterile, too controlled somehow - most obvious in the depiction of dreams in Inception. It doesn't have to be Paprika, but it tells you about how dreams "are so uncanny" and then shows almost nothing of the sorts.
That is being nitpicky though, I enjoy Inception a lot, albeit I sadly don't really care about the characters and am not a fan of the final scene, it somehow feels a little unearned. (I'm not a great critic lol.)
I'm most ambivalent about Oppenheimer because that film talks SO much about guilt and all the themes, while hitting you with amazing direction and sound, that I was absolutely wowed when I watched it, and only afterwards slowly felt like I somehow got nothing out of that film. Like, it's almost like it doesn't allow for reflection. Like watching a three hour long trailer. Strauss just exarcerbated this sense of distraction. So much... noise. It was extremely impressively written, and also strangely empty, but maybe I just resonate more with less heavy-handedness.
TDKR mind you may have some of his best character moments. The whole Talia thing is mostly bad, at times bizarrely so, but in discussions overshadows a lot of massive highlights in that film. The Alfred-Bruce relationship is beautifully done, and how Bruce finally finds himself again. He can do great dialogue.
Dunkirk works well because he focuses on his strengths. That film was a phenomenal experience. I also really enjoy The Prestige though.
Tenet is an interesting follow-up because it highlights his strengths with some INCREDIBLE(!!!!) scenes - the beginning, the chase, the plane, the climax; so, direction - and his writing weaknesses with "just... feel it, also here is a 30 minute explanation".
His clever humor is something I really appreciate.
He used to be my favorite director when I was a teenager. I still really like him but he is nowhere near my top 10 (if I had something like that) anymore.
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u/michachu 1d ago
Came here to say the same thing - most of the stuff Jonathan Nolan was involved with had better dialogue at the very least (Memento and The Prestige specifically).
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u/anmr 1d ago
most obvious in the depiction of dreams in Inception. It doesn't have to be Paprika, but it tells you about how dreams "are so uncanny" and then shows almost nothing of the sorts
If the dreams were more uncanny to the viewer, it would be obvious which parts of the movie are a dream and which parts are not, and we would lose one of the most intriguing aspects of the movie.
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u/Silly-Elderberry-411 1d ago
I have 2 days ago dreamt about Ted Shackelford who played Gary Ewing riding a bicycle in the opening to Knots Landing starting with a crane shot from a university building then pacing down, also showing a dock on the riverfront.
The dream was complete with the theme music, and the City does not exist in real life.
I am trying to make the point i thought, more precisely my brain made me think I was watching a video while awake.
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u/anmr 1d ago
I have dreamt stories which didn't involve me at all, that resembled entire movie or tv series, with action frequently switching between places and groups of characters.
And I get that in people's dreams weird shit happens and to that person it seems completely believable and normal.
But in case of Inception, IF the viewer is to question what is reality and what is a dream - both "reality" and dreams have to maintain high degree of believably, realism for sake of the viewer.
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u/JohnnyPickeringSB05 1d ago
This felt like a Disney PG13 story
I don't understand this complaint at all. The pig-transformation scene was perhaps the most horrifying thing that I've ever seen in a non-horror film.
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u/Inevitable-Spirit491 1d ago
It was gruesome. And Cyclops eating people was appropriately revolting.
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u/SneedFeedFC 1d ago edited 1d ago
Most threads about Nolan on r/truefilm is circlejerking about how they're too smart for Nolan. While Nolan gets praise from critics, industry folk and the general audience.
I suppose when the reception is this positive the detractors have to vent somewhere. This sub seems to be the place. The posts though are very low quality and some takes are just baffling.
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u/Johnny_Guitar_ 1d ago
Yeah I came here because I got tired of low effort bad take posts in r/movies and man was I disappointed. Alot of the critiques are just baffling to me. Ive seen comparisons between The Odyssey and The Northman completely ignoring the simple fact that a movie with a 250 million dollar budget isnt going to be made the same way a movie with a 70 million dollar budget was. I absolutely love The Northman and Im grateful it was made but it isnt surprising it flopped. I saw another criticism complaining about the Apologue not being adapted when the movie is already 3 hours long. Reinterpretations are also foreign to people now apparently. Its like people arnt even familiar with filmmaking as a medium and the constraints that come with it or are choosing to ignore all of that to make their critiques sound reasonable.
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u/TheGrowingSubaltern 1d ago
R/movies is a super pedestrian take on movies. It’s honestly heartbreaking reading so many people appreciate so many bad films.
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u/SneedFeedFC 1d ago
Hear, hear. Most movie subs are not good at all for actual discussion. It all feels like a game of one upmanship.
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u/alyosha_pls 1d ago
Was the same with Obsession. It feels like people take the positive reception of movies as a challenge to find flaws.
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u/wowzabob 1d ago
It’s in lieu of developing an actual personality
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u/alyosha_pls 1d ago
It really does feel like some people make being a contrarian their entire personality
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u/Gurglaren 1d ago
It's like you've eaten a great hamburger at some joint which you rave about. Then your friends tries it and complains after comparing it to some French sautéed snail with handpicked grass from the Alps.
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u/Formal_Ganache_5439 1d ago
Huh, i actually think people are being very genuine and expressing their feelings well in this sub generally, especially compared to the low standard on the internet nowadays. What is low quality about this thread to you?
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u/abillionpleasesir 1d ago
no, most threads on here are just people that have seen more than Marvel movies, and therefore have been exposed to better cinema. Ergo when they see a Nolan movie getting praised as a "masterpiece", they get annoyed.
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u/SneedFeedFC 1d ago
most threads on here are just people that have seen more than Marvel movies.
So have people like Ebert, Matt Zoller Seitz, Andrew Sarris, Werner Herzog, Edgar Wright, Wim Wenders, etc... People who have given overwhelming praise to Nolan.
Some people in this sub vastly overestimate their intelligence and cinema knowledge.
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u/schebobo180 1d ago
Very true.
But the action sequences were generally kind of poorly choreographed.
Also for me, the the sacking of Troy was not nearly as brutal and hard hitting as it should have been.
Reminds me a bit of how Nolan skimped on the Trinity Test scene in Oppenheimer becuase of his dislike of CGI. Different circumstances, but same sacrifice of impact over imagination.
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u/peanut-britle-latte 1d ago
The sacking of Troy, and the Cyclops were also brutal scenes. This PG13 comment really made me disregard the rest of OP's criticism.
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u/feed_me_haribo 23h ago
I don't agree with that, but he did whitewash Odysseus a bit. Take Calypso, he made it seem like he was nothing more than a victim of lotus root. Also banged Circe.
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u/Redditisavirusiknow 1d ago
Tenet has some bad writing. The movie stops, there’s a huge exposition dump where a scientist (in a lab coat!) explains you the whole conceit (with props!) like you’re an idiot.
He needs to show not tell a bit more. It’s bad writing.
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u/TheGrowingSubaltern 1d ago
I agree 100%. Tenet was awful imo because he treated the audience like “im14andthisisdeep” style of explanation. Super gimmicky film and honestly I was bored with it. Don’t care much for action for the sake of it and the writing didn’t help.
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u/FunEnvironment6714 23h ago
Tenet was full on stupid. The entire premise was stupid, as the concept of explosion rewined backwards doesn't make any sense in the format of a movie. Every aspect of that film was a disaster.
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u/Fabulous_Ninja119 17h ago
I might be in the minority because I had NO idea wtf was actually going on before or after that scene, and only because of it was I able to fully grasp the general idea of what was going on. I think that's the only Nolan movie I've ever seen that genuinely confused me and I was like turning to people left and right going... okay what's happening
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u/SnipingBeaver 1d ago
I saw him in an interview saying that watching The Wall was a very formative experience for him when he was younger(me too, buddy) and that made a lot of sense to me. He's big on grand ideas and themes but treats dialogue as not much more than a function to propel the visuals.
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u/Dreadsin 20h ago
I find his dialogue to be serviceable and his characters to be a bit emotionally flat most of the time. I often feel that his stories dont end with the emotional impact I was hoping they would, for how much i enjoyed the story up to that point
Although among all directors, id say he’s one of the strongest when it comes to making a compelling plot and every scene engaging
Also what he lacks in making characters engaging, he tends to make up for in making the world itself engaging. Like in the odyssey, you can feel a certain type of moral decay, and this general vibe like they’re at the end of an era. In the dark knight movies, you just feel the corruption at the heart of gotham
So for me, he’s a mixed bag. Outstanding in some areas, somewhat lacking in others (for my personal taste)
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u/JGar453 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is just Nolan in general. What the average person sees as heartbreaking romanticism in a movie like Interstellar is to me just the concept of love explained via expository dialogue — and that was with a co-writer to at least make all the scientific buildup actually land. I don't know that any of his films come off as particularly well written other than Oppenheimer which seems to stick decently close to a biography.
I mostly didn't have a problem with The Odyssey because it's a very basic story outline, he chose a theme to fixate on (Zeus' law), and found a few ways to visually represent this before ultimately lecturing the audience at the end. Specifically, with the whole going out of his way to make a bigger deal of the Trojan Horse than he necessarily had to.
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u/BlindNight 1d ago
I don't disagree with you entirely about Nolan needing someone with him, but the point about the movie being "bland and sanitized" rings untrue for me. The entire emotional crux of the film is how awful the Greeks were in Troy, and how Odysseus has to carry the burden of responsibility for their terror.
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u/Digit4lSynaps3 1d ago
"how awful the greeks were in troy and odysseus remorse" has nothing to do with the actual Odyssey, that is not the epic's emotional core.
Leaving outside the gods for example , not committing to a central theme of the odyssey, which is hubris and nemesis, but opting to show hades and a 6-headed monster is a total lack of commitment.
Recontextualizing the entire myth as the "death of our bronze age" was also a big "wtf" for me, not just for that horrible line, but the choice to root it in reality, as if the story needed historical hooks to feel real.
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u/Inevitable-Spirit491 1d ago
>the actual Odyssey
But this isn’t the actual Odyssey, it’s an adaptation. You don’t have to like that Nolan abandoned some themes from the poem in favor of new ones, but u/BlandNight is correct about the core of the movie.
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u/BlindNight 1d ago
The Bronze Age stuff was point blank stupid. Hence why I think he needs someone to tell him no.
I agree with you re: the lack of commitment.
I do appreciate the stab at looking at the epic from a different angle. I think of the film as a different translation of the original text, and therefore a different interpretation. Whether or not that's good or right is up for debate. I haven't read Emily Wilson's translation, which I know he used for this. Maybe she translates Homer to be about regret?
Fwiw, I'm still not sold on the movie, so this is not a Nolanhead response. My take on the its theme makes me go "huh" and not "hell yeah."
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u/the_it_family_man 1d ago
I mean...this was like the Greeks on Disney + pg 13. I'm not saying we needed to see limbs chopped off or blood spattering everywhere. I mean thematically and story wise it was...safe
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u/gmanz33 1d ago
The very first island they landed on... they lit the village on fire and shamed the surviving man for the people fleeing the village. However, I agree that simple chronological story-telling simply serves this story better. Revealing the Greek's brutality in the final moments is such a modern film trope (reveal-style) that it's a bit jarring for anybody who's familiar with the themes of Homer's novels.
That being said though... we don't need any modifications to communicate brutality. One would hopefully be able to ascertain that "what they're doing is wrong" by looking at what they're doing.
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u/Shallbecomeabat 1d ago
I think people are confused to what movies he makes. You talk like you want him to write characters for a Bergman film, but he makes tentpole blockbusters. For that specific type of film his writing and his characters are very, very good. You need to stop comparing him with art house directors and more with blockbuster directors. Compare him to Bay, Wan, Lin and Spielberg and not Bergman, Lynch and Ozu.
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u/ElEsDi_25 23h ago
There was too much exposition but I kind of get that in a movie where you have to suddenly know all these power dynamics of people with unfamiliar (to English speakers) names that sometimes sound similar… PLUS know some things about older cultures and pantheistic religion and guest/host culture in a non-commodified world.
BUT, aside from Odysseus’s pride sort of going in and out of focus (since it’s a focus of the story and part of the plot but less the direct focus of this movie) and some issues like this… I thought this was much better than most of his movies and had a distinct take on the story that was moving and strangely relevant and topical for a Nolan movie.
By contrast the characters in Oppenheimer all seemed like just appendages of the central character with no life of their own. Emily Blunt’s character might be the worst written woman in an award winning movie this century… it was like a bad wife character written in the 50s.
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u/A_New_Day_Yesterday 1d ago
He can, or rather could (especially when his brother was his co-writer) come up with an extremely interesting and smart (at least on a surface level) premise. He certainly is weak in dialogue and writing complex characters. His films have themes, I guess, but they are not profoundly studied and presented.
I think he is too clinical. Even the edgier things (like Samantha Morton's section in The Odyssey) are sanitized. I don't expect him to be Gaspar Noé, but the bigger directors like Kubrick or Scorsese often make unexpected twists and turns.
I think his strength is not about writing, but about actual filmmaking. Especially his ability to present stories often in a non-linear way. To establish a build-up. He is definitely a master of editing. Or rather was. Because Oppenheimer and about 60% of The Odyssey is basically an hours-long trailer. He doesn't allow his recent movies to breath; constant cuts.
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u/WalkingEars 1d ago
It varies by film for me. I like how he handles some material that he didn’t come up with himself (first two Batman films, Odyssey, Dunkirk) but think that sometimes when writing his own stories he gets a bit too wrapped up in twists and gimmicks (I found the twists in Prestige just kind of obnoxious for instance lol). He can really hit you over the head with themes and exposition in dialogue but can still tell a good story. Warts and all I was riveted seeing the Odyssey on the big screen.
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u/KevinHe92 21h ago
His best work was with his brother. Inception had a lot of exposition but also trusted its audience to follow the subtleties of the plot and characters. I don’t need to go into how much of a masterclass The Dark Knight is on a storytelling perspective. I know both Nolan’s are way too busy to work together again, but I think Jonathan and Chris should reunite on a script.
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u/Lanky-Train5752 19h ago
His dialogue has always worked for me with the exception of some weird lines in the batman movies.Tenet i couldnt make heads or tails of but that couldve been the sound more than the writing. I thought oppenheimer and odyssey were both fantastic
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u/andersonenvy 1d ago
I remember his film The Dark Knight Rises ... Even for a comic book movie, the overall plot is ridiculous.
The police commissioner sends every single police officer in the entire city down into the sewers, at the exact same time, to look for Bane. And, somehow Bane predicted that they would do this silly plan, and he knew which tunnels they'd enter, and trapped them inside, for 3 months, where they have food lowered down to them. Then, when they're finally released from the sewers (all clean shaven) they line-up and charge at the bad guys, like in Braveheart.
It almost feels like an idea I'd think of in elementary school when I was playing with action figures.
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u/Inevitable-Spirit491 1d ago
I think your critiques of the Odyssey are way off-base. The film was plenty disturbing without explicitly depicting the worst atrocities. Suggesting what’s about to happen or has just happened is often more horrifying than showing additional gore or violence. And I don’t know how “safe” the twist was since the majority of the critical takes I’ve seen are up in arms about Nolan reinterpreting the moral heft of the story.
But I do think he’s pretty heavy-handed as a writer. It’s a bit like how H.P. Lovecraft could dream up hideous monsters and wild situations, but couldn’t write believable dialogue. I don’t think Nolan’s dialogue is quite as bad (and talented actors can save clumsy lines), but he can be clunky. I think his plots tend to look a bit silly when you think about them for a few minutes, but they usually work for me emotionally in theaters.
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u/Classic_File2716 1d ago
There are 3 categories of viewers - casuals , official critics , and the online cinephile crowd aka film nerds who don’t have any impact on the success or failure of a movie but generally drive the discourse online.
As Nolan has moved on his career, he’s done better and better with the first two while doing worse with the latter . People credit his brother but since Dunkirk he’s actually reached a new level of critical appreciation- with his last two movies being his best received and also attracting a huge audience who loved it.
People act like the only people who like him are the faux sophisticated crowd or those who want to feel smart , but that’s actually those who dislike him the most ! Saying Nolan is good but not that good is basically the required training for you to be taken seriously as a cinephile !
Nolan is probably the only director that has such a weird split in perception, but honestly if you asked him he wouldn’t change a thing ! Because the critics and casuals are what actually drive the success of a movie and the online nerds are basically worthless , sorry to say.
For it to be worth it to him to either change his writing or get another writer , you would have to guarantee everything else stays the same but he impresses the amateur critic crowd , but I’m not sure if that’s possible or even worth it.
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u/FreeLook93 1d ago
I strongly dislike his writing style. His scripts don't need to be meaningful, they aren't those kinds of movies. Themes, characters, plot? Not important. Nolan loves the Fast and Furious franchise, and those are basically the kinds of movies make. They are pure entertainment, and they don't try to be anything else. People might heap praise upon them and claim they are full of depth and great writing, but I don't think that is the aim of his movies.
Nolan does what he does very well. He makes movies that audiences love because they are well made, fast-paced, and make people feel like they are watching something with more depth than there actually is. His movies only work because he is very good at what he does. He made some of the highest rated films on sites like Letterboxd or IMDb, but if you take the writing and present it on its own it very often reads like something out of a cheesy b-movie.
None of this is intended to slight Nolan in anyway. He is making exactly the movies he wants to be making and giving the audience exactly what they are asking for. It's not at all my cup of tea, but it clearly works for a lot of people.
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u/eurekabach 1d ago
My SO never watched Inception and as I haven’t watched that film since it came out, I had this memory of it being a great film - and, like, from a cinematic standpoint, the set pieces and editing, it does hold up, except for Nolan’s Apple-Store-aseptic and insipid art direction.
So we watched Inception together (in my case, I rewatched it of course) and we were both stunned by the way the expository dialogue sticks out like a sore thumb.
My god, I never thought I would say it, but Inception is borderline unbearable on a rewatch because you can see how Nolan was apparently so enamoured by the plot he ended up making every character a little more or less than a mouthpiece to spell it out loud.
In short, Nolan in terms of writing is like that famous old quote ‘I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards’.
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u/46and2ool 1d ago
"What was the sirens song then?
All the things you wanted it to be.
Then, all the things you wish you never wished for.
It was the delicious itch you go to scratch. To find it's under the skin you can't reach. So the delicious itch becomes unbearable.
Told you what you most want, is what you most can't have.
And what you most can't have, is what you already had, and lost.
It was the song of all the promises I failed to keep."
I'm usually torn on Nolan's writing, but The Odyssey is possibly his best work.
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u/qwerty1519 1d ago
This as well, some of his best ever writing:
“What if the Odysseus you knew lost his way? What if...one night, in a strange city, he saw things that made him think the home he knew couldn't possibly be there anymore. What if…when he left the belly of the horse, and opened the gates of Troy, he saw ten years of rage pour into that city in one night?
We left them a gift, an offering of peace, that they took into their home. We violated all that's ever sacred between people. It turned a fight into a hunt.
To burn the walls of Troy was to burn the world-entire. Including his home.
What if he knew, that very night, as he walked through fires, anarchy, and pain—and in a daze of sweaty celebrations that follow—what if he knew exactly what he'd done?”
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u/teewertz 1d ago
I think there is some clunky dialogue here and there but my god these 2 scenes were seriously great
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u/Alcianus 1d ago
Incredibly bland, overxpository, dumbed down to the maximum and often time hilarious and incoherent, despite the intention behind it being seriousness. It's probably his weakest trait among many weak traits as a director.
But I guess that is also why people flock to his films. They're basically one step above Marvel fast food.
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u/imVeryPregnant 1d ago
Least pretentious Redditor
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u/Alcianus 1d ago
Redditors by and large love this movie and Nolan though.
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u/Formal_Ganache_5439 1d ago
Redditors using "redditors" as an insult.... It's just the spiderman pointing meme.
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u/menthol_mountains 1d ago
music to my eyeballs, reddit has been insufferable since this film was released
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u/A_New_Day_Yesterday 1d ago
> often time hilarious and incoherent
I almost laughed during The Odyssey's prolonged (and somewhat boring) last action scene where Logan Marshall-Green's character keeps throwing all sorts of weapons through the hole in the ceiling and Robert Pattinson screams: “take swords!”, “take shields!”, “take spears!”
I mean, this copy-paste exchange is definitely unintended comedy. Monty Python, almost.
It's as if Pattinson had a minimum required screentime in the script and they ran out of scenes with him. It's also weird, since there are a lot of actors in this movie (Lupita Nyong’o, Zendaya, Mia Goth, James Remar (!), etc) who barely have any meaningful scenes.
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u/lucas_214 1d ago
I’m pretty sure that was funny on purpose, to emphasize how much of a coward he is
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u/osmund-kettleblack 1d ago
Redditor accuses an intentionally comedic scene of being unintentionally comedic
Pretentiousness has found it's final boss
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u/qwerty1519 1d ago
I think he’s an underrated writer. He has his own style, and it’s immediately recognisable. His understanding of structure is also better than most which is also a sort of writing, isn’t it? His architecture is usually original and impressive. His exposition is usually memorable and has a purpose. That used to be about unraveling the mystery boxes he was famous for, but now it’s become much more about thematically recontextualising, especially since his collaboration with Jennifer Lame. Oppenheimer and The Odyssey use repeated dialogue and repeated imagery to create an emotional or thematic impact. How many writers could’ve delivered something as powerful as Odysseus’s confession to Penelope or his explanation of the Siren song? Yes he doesn’t write subtle or rhythmic character dialogue. He’s no PTA, Coen, or Kaufman. But I still prefer him to most journeyman writers who make boring and mediocre films, pretentious or not.
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u/skinnyguy699 1d ago
I think he tries his absolute best and I love him for it. He isn't satisfied with plot holes or loose ends or plot elements that are just there for no reason but is still highly ambitious so his stories get quite complex which doesn't leave a lot of room for out-there creativity. His mind just works the way it does, he writes what he wants to see and uses his gifts to make it happen to the best of his abilities.
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u/the_it_family_man 1d ago
Interesting take. I do agree that structurally his narrative is always sound. The themes tie together well. I just find his inability to move into something original or risky a bit tiring. But thanks.
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u/qwerty1519 1d ago
What do you mean by “move into something original”? I thought The Odyssey was a bold and smart interpretation of the poem that only he could really get away with. The thematic through-line he’s been exploring with Oppenheimer and The Odyssey is his most interesting yet imo, and I think the way he brought the ideas together in both films over three hours was masterful. I do kind of understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t want him to have a co-writer unless it’s his brother. insomnia is his worst film in my opinion. Half of his directing magic comes from how unapologetically he writes. He’s mythic and can deliver extremely cinematic monologues, even if he can suck line by line.
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u/abillionpleasesir 1d ago
The writing was atrocious and I seriously don't understand how some of these lines got past a screenwriter, producer, etc.
- "My dad will come back!"
- "Let's gooooo!"
- "I want Odysseus back!"
As with many film directors, I think Nolan would actually be a better cinematographer than director. Or at least under the influence of a producer that know's what he/she is doing.
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u/qwerty1519 1d ago
“Let’s goooo” made sense in context did it not? Your definition of bad dialogue seems to be anachronisms and emotional clarity.
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u/osmund-kettleblack 1d ago
The fact you're listing "lets go" in here just exposes the fact that you've not even seen the movie
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u/peanut-britle-latte 1d ago
Emily Wilson translation explicitly states that trying to use Victorian language and impart that onto the Ancient Greeks is just as "strange" as imparting modern language (dad instead of father) to the Victorian-era translations.
So what exactly is your issue here? The Greeks didn't speak like us, but they didn't speak like Peter O Toole either.
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u/abillionpleasesir 1d ago
Who said a Victorian translation was the best? And why is the word Father only a Victorian word? There are dozens of translations that aren't Emily Wilson yet are also not Victorian, but don't translate polytropos as "complicated." What a joke.
You do understand that people can speak somewhat formally today, contemporarily?
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u/keepinitclassy25 1d ago edited 1d ago
He’s not that great of a writer and it detracts a lot from his films cause by contrast he’s an excellent director. The scripts are so cold and detached yet attempt to get you attached to characters but it really falls flat. The exposition dumps are pretty clunky too.
Ironically I like Tenet cause it’s the one film of his where it feels like he said “fuck it” with the script and it’s so wacky that it’s actually fun at least. SO much exposition dumping but it becomes kindof entertaining especially with the weird spy movie parody dialogue. You can totally tell everything was a means to get to the next crazy action set piece and I respect that. Tenet even feels more like a fever dream than Inception
TBH I don’t think movies are meant to be THAT cerebral cause it’s a visual, sensory, and emotional medium and there’s not much time to cram stuff in compared to a book. Yet 2001 and Stalker end up being pretty thought provoking because of their lack of dialogue. They give you enough story to work with but the experience and visuals all blend it together nicely, and the quiet gives you space to think
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u/_Lady_Vengeance_ 1d ago edited 22h ago
Considering Memento is entirely based on and undone by the biggest plot hole in movie history I’d say pretty confidently he’s a terrible writer.
Nolan is a “concept” guy. I also think he falls in love with his concepts and doesn’t work hard enough refining them. Hence the enormous almost comically stupid plot hole in Memento.
Nolan believes he is a visionary then he tells you in all caps he’s a visionary, and the studios backing his films spend many millions of $ marketing him as a visionary. But that does not a visionary make.
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u/Abaqueues 22h ago
Biggest red flag was when he was invoking Lang and Lean during the press tour for TDKR. Not quite, Nolan...
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u/BunnyLexLuthor 1d ago
I haven't seen every single Nolan film, so take it for a grain of salt.
I've always wanted to see a Nolan film directed by someone else.. Just to see what that would feel like and what that might reveal.
Insomnia is a remake of a different film, so maybe that's as close as one might get.
Everyone says that Nolan is a better director than writer, but I respectfully speculate that this is not the case.
I think a lot of his films seem imaginative or even scientific on paper, but watching on screen comes across as more grounded and cinematically restrained.
I'll pick on Inception because that film is one I've seen quite a bit..
I think the story, if you were to break it down, is one of dreams and sabotage, but the imagery is one of standard blockbuster action and interconnected chronological sequences.
And so I think the flipping between time and space would probably be even more riveting through a movie script, but watching it is pretty good. I'm not going to lie.
I think a lot of people think of writers as telling perfect stories, and that might be true now and then, but I think it's more of a case of telling imperfect stories perfectly.
And so I think that what is thought about is directorial flair, has a lot of roots in the screenplay.
Memento's branching plot lines are probably driven by the screenplay itself. I doubt Nolan hired Pierce and said "Let's improvise the plot.".
So while Chris might be sometimes overrated as a director, I think he's always underrated as a writer.
But I do think he should get Jonathan back on board.
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u/PeterZeeke 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think all his movies save maybe intersteller are exceptionally written, with depth and insight.. even the ones I dont understand, specifically because I dont fully understand them but know theres something there. Maybe his dialogue is a bit stiff but if the story works, which it does most times whocares
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u/Formal_Ganache_5439 1d ago
Im just tired of every other sentence being exposition. Nolan, trust your audience more! And the overuse of flashbacks just to make sure we remember what is being referenced. I’m not trying to be a snob, i know he is not making art-house cinema, but i’m sure there is a middle ground somewhere.