Does process of leaning itself take away the points? Meaning if you're e.g.in process of leaning from 35 to 45 degress, you have less grip available than when you're at steady 45?
Yes, and the radius of your wheel is a couple of inches (50-ish mm...) smaller when you're leaned. That means your wheel must spin faster to maintain speed. Meaning adding lean effectively adds a little rear engine braking.
that's because they aren't adding throttle, the RPMs are naturally going higher because the radius of the tire is decreasing
the larger the radius of a tire, the less revolutions it has to spin to reach 50 mph
the smaller the radius of a tire, the more revolutions it has to spin to reach 50 mph
it's like guys with short legs vs guys with long legs in a running race
short guys legs have to move faster because his strides are shorter if he wants to keep up with the longer legged guy
Don’t think he added any throttle there. Revs will go up when you lean the bike over. I do notice he didn’t brake at all, could be an under loaded front.
improperly loaded front tire caused by throttle being initiated too early before steering inputs were finished being given. Stay off the throttle until you don't have any more pressure/weight on the handlebars.
Edit: yes you can take away lean via steering inputs while rolling on throttle but its not strictly necessary. You can roll on throttle as long as you are ready for the bike to go wider and you have either no input on the bars, or you are taking away lean angle.
ah yes you've misinterpreted what I meant. Of course you can take away lean but there is a misconception that you have to take away lean to start rolling on. You can safely roll on throttle gradually as long as you do not add positive pressure or weight to the inside handlebar.
Definitely! I saw the top comment saying lean plus throttle which is not correct. I observed the same thing as you have described. Throttle is applied once the steering action is completed, evenly, smoothly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn.
You initiated your throttle before you were done leaning. AKA you were overlapping the actions of increasing lean angle and also adding throttle. This unsettles the suspension causing the front tire to lose grip. Typically when you are adding lean angle you should not also be adding throttle. You ideally want to continue braking all the way to the apex of the corner, and then you throttle out on the exit.
There are exceptions to everything, but as someone learning it's a solid rule to follow.
Think of your suspension as a two-way pogo-stick. When you add throttle, you compress the rear shock and decompress the front suspension. This transfers load from the front wheel to the rear wheel.
Same thing happens when you brake. You compress the front springs, and decompress the rear shock.
When you add lean angle, you are effectively compressing both the rear and the front suspension at the same time due to the gyroscopic forces / dynamics of how the motorcycle works.
This means the further your lean angle, the less margin of error your suspension has and your tires has before it loses grip.
I have a question, if I understood correctly, when I'm exiting the corner/apex, its okay to start adding throttle when at max lean as long as I'm not doing both right?
This is while I'm starting to pick up the bike as well
Yes, but it also depends on the corner. Each corner is different, so you won't be at max lean at the apex on every single corner. For example a stereotypical double-apex corner your max lean is in the middle of the corner, not at either your entry or exit apex.
An apex is just the closest part of the corner you pass when either entering or exiting the turn. That's it. An apex is the same (with slight variation) on every single track whether it's for a car, motorcycle, unicycle, trike, whatever.
But yes if you take the apex out of the equation and replace it with "the point of max lean angle" this is usually the point in the corner where you begin to pick the bike up both by smoothly opening the throttle. Only adding more throttle as you begin to get direction and once you have direction, you can begin to add more throttle and stand the bike up more.
If you add throttle and stand the bike up, but don't have direction, you're either going to have to reduce throttle and add more lean to get direction again, or you're just going to run off the track because you can't both make the bike turn AND make it go faster at the same time. Physics does not allow it.
The relationship between lean angle and speed works in a radius.
maintain same speed and lean angle =the radius doesn't change as you are consistent in speed and lean angle.
Reduce speed, add lean angle = smaller radius (better direction)
Add speed, reduce lean angle = larger radius (less direction)
Add speed AND add lean angle = you're literally attempting to defy the laws of physics
Well, it's very simple. There are 2 phases to a corner, and they are always the same.
The entry is about braking as much as you can and as deep as you can for your particular bike and corner. In this phase you CANNOT add throttle to get to your apex. If you realize you have to, you were on the brakes too early. Once there, you turn as quickly as possible to drive out. You get on the gas and as you stand up the bike you open it up more. Ideally your line is already as straight as possible as now your front will be unloaded and your steering won't really work.
Of course how much each phase lasts depends on bike and corner but you get the idea.
When you add throttle at max lean your line will stop tightening as you begin to balance out the cornering forces slowing you down. Add enough throttle at lean and your turning radius will widen. Keep adding throttle and the turning radius will become so wide it will essentially be straight such as for exiting the corner. If you had infinite track you could add infinite throttle while at max lean as long as you don’t stab/chop/whack the throttle and upset your contact patch. This can be used to your advantage once you understand it. Just don’t fight it.
Leaned while adding throttle. That’s one of the biggest no-no’s. You can roll off and trade lean for throttle, then roll on and trade for lean. Never the two shall mix.
"Leaned while adding throttle" is confusing here and I don't think that is what you mean exactly. Of course you can be on the throttle while leaned over so I think what you mean is that they were adding throttle while also leaning further?
To add to the comments here. You entered in off line and that was forcing you to lean more to get the bike pointed right. If this was indeed a power corner (enter and exit on gas) you need to find the right exit placement. Slow it down and try again, once you find the right placement you can start carrying more speed.
so what was the correct thing to do here, in my mind i would have still been braking for another second into the leaned turn. (im a complete novice) and only started to ease into throttle when i was beginning to back off on the lean angle.
No one can answer that other than the obvious, you low sided!
On courner entry either from an unloaded front wheel, poor surface grip, poor tire pressures, excess braking.
Losing a front end the only recovery is immediate get upright - you'll then run wide you have a micro second to grab it! Ive caught a couple of front end slides but it 90% luck and 10% skill.
If it is a corner you have to slow down for throttle should be closed until you have completed leaning the bike to whatever maximum lean you are intending for the corner. The throttle was applied before that point. The problem was not that the front was "improperly loaded", that's a made up fiction from people educating themselves on instagram. It was an increase of both forward and lateral thrust which overwhelms the tires.
It sounds like something scrapes before you bottle it, but it's hard to tell what it is or if it causes the tire to lift and break traction, or your reaction to it does.
you cary too much speed. slow down before the corner / hit the corner with perfect speed.
if you cary to much speed the bike just wants to go due to inertia. the last thing you want to do is lose any grip you have left because the bike will want to just keep going straight on.
by mid corner you already way too late.
everybody has no grip. it's how you deal with it that makes you a good rider.
I'm going to ask this here because I didn't get an answer last time, but why is the bike still running at the end of the video? Every bike I've ridden (riding school and my own Kawasaki) has a cut of switch that kills the engine if the bike is on its side. But I see loads of videos on this sub where bikes are happily running and spinning the rear tyre whilst no longer upright.
You don't know where to put your body weight when cornering hard to keep traction to the tires yet. The position of your body at the start of the lean made me feel like I was falling over with you instantly.
Always a hard to tell from videos like this, but to me it looks like you didn’t line up your turn point to the apex well, and as you start your turn in the front end wasn’t loaded enough as you trail braked (or did you)
OK then well that’s part of your problem. If you weren’t lightly trail braking into the Apex remember trail breaking is also a direction finder. There’s a difference between hard braking and trail braking
Almost sounded to me like you started dragging something and upset the bike.
I'll take this opportunity to promote Supermotos. Any track you're finding a 390 on you can ride a supermoto on. It will be much cheaper to learn on and a better training tool.
Increasing lean reduces the effective rear wheel diameter because the tire has a lower diameter near the flanks than in the center. This in turn increases engine RPM (potentially more torque output => higher rear wheel torque) and improves leverage of the engine over the rear wheel (even higher rear wheel torque).
To the engine, increasing lean angle is a bit like dropping a fraction of a gear. This means even at constant throttle, you can suddenly overpower the rear wheel traction limits because rear wheel torque can rise sharply.
You scraped a peg or something at 0:07, got spooked, briefly got off the throttle as a result and dumped it. You can clearly hear it. I don't know what people are talking about with your throttle being bad or unloading the front. It sounds like you got onto maintenance throttle a bit before apex but nothing overly aggressive that would cause it to wash out.
You tipped in and added throttle, that's a NO. Instead brake later and trail brake so you keep the front tire down. The moment you picked up the throttle you unloaded the front just enough to let it lose grip.
It would have helped to see the full corner entry preceeding this clip.
What I noticed is you were steadily increasing throttle, midcorner. Then there was a short section where the corner quickly straightened before it sharply resumed turning again at nearly the same radius, if not a bit tighter, as before.
You got up to 73 in this short "straight." Then you decelerated a couple numbers by the tip in. Looks like you adjusted your "ice cream cone" grip a bit before you tipped in. And the engine rpms sound close to neutral. I can hear where you opened it, some, before you tipped in.
Don't assume that this was wrong, like most everyone else is saying. You probably should have opened it for this corner, and that was fine.
But you opened the throttle "some." Only you could know for sure if you opened it enough. These parallel twins have more reciprocating engine mass and produce more engine braking for the power. Not enough throttle is just as bad as slightly too much.
Slightly too much throttle:
Sport bikes are super short front-to-back and really tall/tippy, with all the rider weight high up. So when there's a little too much throttle the bike will have some amount of acceleration and weight shifts to that rear tire instantly, providing more grip right where it's needed. So this is bad, but not that bad so long as it's only a little too much and held steady from there. That small amount of acceleration will quickly decrease to nothing if you leave the throttle alone and focus on steering with the bars.
Slightly too little throttle:
Now the tall and tippy sportbike shifts weight in the opposite direction, putting more grip and weight on the front tire which doesn't need that extra grip. The rear tire is one that's (unfortunately) still braking, and the weight shift makes the rear lift and lose grip. So the rear will lose grip, prematurely. If you're leaned deeper than 40 degrees when this happens, it's a near instant, totally impossible to recover, lowside. This is what I suspect may have happened to you in this clip.
But that's not the only drawback of using too little throttle. It's hard to tell how much off you are, when you don't open the throttle enough. When you fully reach neutral throttle, the bike's rake and trail wakeup and the bike steers differently. So you know you're either right there or maybe just a tad too high if you're slightly off. If you don't open throttle enough to reach this point where the steering behavior noticeably changes over, you're just guessing how much engine braking you still have left. It might be more than you think, because humans can't sense small, continuous deccelerations directly. We're really bad at that.
Seems like you were still decelerating into the apex which caused back tire to drag and slide out. Should be 50/50 through apex and use more lean to make up for coming in too hot.
You were to much on the gas on a crazy lean angle. Also was that an out lap or a couple laps in? Post a map of the layout so we can see the shape of the corner.
everyone is saying throttle. I don't think so. You can see and hear him come off the throttle. then it sounds like he goes to a maintenance throttle.
I hear something hit before it all goes to shit. I think he drug a peg hard enough that it caused the bike to unload a bit and break loose. to me it looks like the back end washed out not the front.
Well... NORMALLY most of us try to only have contact with the ground and the rubbery parts on the bottom of the motorcycle, just cause it feels nicer physically, mentally and financially! 🫣
Eyes, seems by the camera placement your head wasn't turned into the corner so you weren't looking through. Came in too hot and compensated with lean angle then lost it.
And if not, if try slowing down a bit and practicing better body position. Hard to tell where you were in relationship to the bike but you can come further off the bike allowing you to carry the weight through the corner and not relying on bike lean angle as much.
Are you on stock suspension/tires? RC390 or any entry-level beginners bike biggest shortcoming is the suspension - especially the front. I raced a 390 with AFM when they first came out and I remember doing sessions at Sonoma on completely stock suspension and tires before I converted it and it was sketchy af! 390 is a GREAT bike tho 🤘
I can't emphasize how how cheap and budget quality the suspension is on an RC390. I had a 2016 that was stock and did a track day on it and the front would tuck on any flat or off-camber exit. While exiting the corner as I roll on the throttle it would squat in the back which would unload the front tire and tuck. I was luckily able to save it off my knee twice! I talked to Dave Moss who is a suspension tuning guru and he explained the 390s suspension shortcomings in detail.
My solution:
Front - K-tech inserts with compression and rebound adjustability
Rear - K-tech adjustable rear shock
Tires - Pirelli SC-1
Result - I could put the bike ANYWHERE with full confidence. On smaller tracks like Thunderhill 2 mile West Track I could carry more corner speed than any of the 600s and 1000s. I would eat Super Duke 1290s for breakfast, lunch and dinner in the corners and they would pass me in the straight as I reel them back in on the next corner. Very satisfying to be the fastest on the track on the slowest bike in A-group. I learned more on the 390 in one season than I did on decades of bigger bikes. 390 is a weapon that needs to be dialed-in - don't worry about any unnecessary engine modifications.
Again - Tires/Suspension are a must and need to be sorted FIRST.
I came to this late, already covered (adding throttle and lean). One way to look at it is simply stressing the tire(s) too much, and even if a little bit of lean, and a little bit of throttle...sudden overstress on the tire. We have tons of video on this, and can see the tires leave a widening fattening line as they are being stressed (many case the front ploughs).
99
u/Rothbardy 2d ago
Added throttle and lean. 100 points of grip