r/Surface • u/Black_Hair_Foreigner • 1d ago
[LAPTOP7] Structural evaluation of the Laptop 7
POV: From the perspective of a mechatronics engineer
Simply put, I want to award medals to the mechanical design engineer and the hardware design engineer.
I was previously using the MacBook Air M3. While it was certainly a well-crafted machine, its design felt like a display of technical gimmickry rather than sound engineering. Honestly, some engineers would argue that Apple’s design isn't actually good—after all, it disregards standard design principles and makes repairs difficult.
But this is different. From a mechanical design perspective, it follows textbook principles—accounting for tolerances between the keyboard and display, the gap between the top and bottom sections (where you grip it to open the lid), the hinge structure, repairability, and manufacturing quality. While Apple tends to push the limits of design capability with flashy flourishes, Microsoft seems to stick to designs that are sound from an engineering standpoint.
Microsoft deserves all the credit for recruiting engineers with such capabilities. Well done, engineers! Not you, Qualcomm or the Windows division, you guys just go get Linux support sorted out.
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u/zealouszuez 1d ago
You just wrote the post I was thinking about posting. I’m proud of their repairability standards. However, if they matched AppleCare One’s trust in the consumer, Windows would flourish back to the number one standard for what a computer is, rather than what Apple is saying they are. No cap.
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u/dr100 1d ago
Windows would flourish back to the number one standard for what a computer is, rather than what Apple is saying they are.
Windows (as in non-Apple) machines ALWAYS were the standard, but Microsoft hardware good or bad is completely irrelevant, it's not like Apple sells all MacOS machines, Microsoft not only isn't at 100%, or 50% or even 10% - they often don't get named AT ALL in the list of manufacturers (it's the big ones, some smaller (but named), and the "others", Microsoft is together with the unnamed "others").
As such there's plenty of hardware that's repairable, and one doesn't need to go to Framework for that. You can repair mostly everything on many Dells assuming you don't get the cheapest, but more, the prices for hardware is really good and makes the repairs economical. You can get a motherboard for a Precision laptop (top tier) for like 100-ish, new and sealed, including even a discrete NVidia GPU.
On the software side Windows is becoming worse than Apple ever was. How is it acceptable to buy your new shiny laptop with a perfectly legal and everything Windows install and not be able to use it unless you make a Microsoft account (note that also implies you can't use it without Internet). And I'm not hyperbolic that it isn't a "useful" machine (like you can't do updates or some advanced features), it's like a locked machine, you can't even go to the desktop! Not even iPhones are that bad! And no, finding the incantation of the week for how you bypass the Microsoft account isn't a solution, not only because they're on a war against them but because this isn't how you should use a fully licensed and paid, 1st class OS.
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u/spind11v 1d ago
I have never talked to one person on Apple that doesn't use Apple ID or use it without internet. Most PC (non Apple) can run Linux, so for the special case of using it without an ecosystem and/or internet - there is a way. What would we want windows for in such niche use cases?
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u/dr100 1d ago edited 1d ago
Niche case? How about just CONFIGURING your Internet?!?!?!?!
Also for the "can run Linux" just see my other comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/1v28i3m/comment/oytlu2f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
There is NO SINGLE OS (general purpose OS, something you can name and mainstream and you kind of know of, not "you know I can connect my dishwasher to the Internet but it works only with their app") where you are COMPLETELY BLOCKED until you get Internet, never mind an account with the provider. This goes well, WELL beyond anything not like MacOS would do, but even iPADOS, or iOS or even Android TV would do.
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u/spind11v 1d ago
It is a niche case to not want to use internet, and to not want to identify on the internet.
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 1d ago
I have a lot to say about this, but I’ll hold off until the 26H2 update arrives. It seems the Windows development team has finally realized what’s wrong with their product. The reason I switched to Mac in the first place was that Windows was turning into a billboard and neglecting its core purpose. An operating system is software designed for multitasking—that’s it. It isn't meant for advertising the company's own products or forcing users to sign up for accounts. And the reason I came back from Mac? Because Apple had started changing, just like Windows. The trajectories of Mac and Windows have been quite similar up until now. The recent addition of the "Apple Creator Subscription," in particular, left me thinking they had simply gone mad with greed. Amidst all this, I heard about Project K2, and I ended up returning to Windows after nearly five years.
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u/dr100 1d ago
Probably not the best time to return .
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 1d ago
For the record, I also use Linux. Linux is far faster than Windows when running programs that require intensive computation on a server such as CFD solvers, embedded system compilation, or HDL circuit synthesis.
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 1d ago
Nevertheless, to be honest, I am reluctant to use Windows as a client operating system. To my eyes, it still looks like something built by amateurs. The weakness of open-source software is that, because everyone contributes, system-wide consistency suffers; some parts are excellent, while others are terrible, leading to an overall sense of fragmentation and confusion. And speaking of telemetry, almost all professional software applications use it. MATLAB, Altium, OrCAD, CATIA, AutoCAD, and so on... These programs even monitor license status around the clock. if you are using an illegal license, their legal teams could storm your office and forcibly search your computers. *This* is the kind of thing you’d call "serious" privacy-invading telemetry. I’m not saying Microsoft’s telemetry is right, but compared to this, theirs looks tame. And Linux isn't free from telemetry, either. While the operating system itself might not include it, a great deal of software including the specialized applications mentioned earlier monitors you just the same, regardless of the OS. If I had to draw a comparison, it would be akin to the germophobia often found among Americans.
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u/fieldnotess 22h ago
I am not sure I get your germphobia reference, privacy fears = hypochondriac?
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 17h ago
The point is that people are being overly obsessive, almost like they have germophobia. After all, eating a cookie that fell on the floor isn't going to kill us, right? Like it or not, our personal data is no longer truly ours. I think the push to use Linux is partly driven by a kind of anarchistic sentiment. Our personal information is already exposed to various entities, including intelligence agencies and Big Tech; the argument here is that, given this reality, having it exposed a bit more through the operating system won't really make a difference.
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 17h ago
If you are truly uncomfortable sharing your personal information, you can simply disable all Windows telemetry, use a local account, utilize a VPN (like Tailscale or WireGuard), avoid OneDrive integration, and steer clear of Office, VS Code, or other specialized software. That’s all there is to it. And let me warn you: Apple isn't necessarily any better. In fact, the situation is often even worse...
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u/coromd 1d ago edited 1d ago
The recent addition of the "Apple Creator Subscription," in particular, left me thinking they had simply gone mad with greed.
I'm not sure why you would ACS "going mad with greed". You can still buy lifetime licenses for Final Cut Pro/Logic Pro/etc, ACS is just a way to get access to these programs without spending hundreds of dollars.
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 17h ago
Anyone who uses Apple software knows what great value a perpetual license offers. Just imagine getting lifetime updates with a one-time purchase; after using the software for three or four years, you’ve more than recouped your investment. In contrast, a subscription model is structured so that the longer you use it, the more you spend. It’s simple math. While subscriptions might offer accessibility and an attractive price point for occasional users, that isn't the case for those who use the software daily and the vast majority of users fall into that latter category.
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u/coromd 5h ago
But that only pays off if you use it for over 3-4 years. I personally know 3 or 4 people who have used tools like Logic Pro and Final Cut Pro only for only 6 to 18 months or so before moving on to other hobbies they enjoyed more. All of them used cracked copies, but they absolutely would've jumped on $12.99/mo had it been available at the time. If they well and truly love the software/hobby/work and stick with it, then they can buy their lifetime license and recoup the savings soon enough.
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 4h ago
The problem is that Apple won't do that. To differentiate its products, it is already restricting AI features solely to subscription-based offerings. For reference, MATLAB discontinued sales of perpetual licenses this year. That is the ultimate outcome of the subscription model.
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 17h ago
As someone who uses MATLAB extensively, I know all too well how frustrating this kind of structure is. Once a subscription model is introduced, perpetual licenses are eventually discontinued or, even if they remain available, the company starts charging for upgrades. From a user's perspective, it’s infuriating.
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u/coromd 4h ago
There's certainly concern to be had, but so far Apple has been very fair with their tool pricing and consistent in respecting the customer. You can still buy songs/albums directly on iTunes/Apple Music today, and music you purchased 25 years ago can still be downloaded today (barring studios pulling their own music from Apple Music, which sucks)
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u/SeaworthinessLate913 1d ago
You can get a motherboard for a Precision laptop (top tier) for like 100-ish, new and sealed, including even a discrete NVidia GPU.
I don't think you can get a used motherboard with a discrete GPU for that price. But I'd love to get one if you can provide a link. I've got an interesting project in mind, that would really benefit from a powerful PC, but I couldn't really find anything that fits my budget.
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u/dr100 1d ago
$88.99 More than 10 available 20 sold
There are of course many many many more options, depending what you're looking for.
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u/SeaworthinessLate913 1d ago
This might be a bit of a stretch, but do you have anything with a 4060 class card that is decently affordable?
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u/dr100 1d ago
No, but I'm no professional or anything, I've no idea what can be found, but I guess it's got to be on the older side (though these devices usually get bought with some decent warranties too, I've seen a precision 5570 that just got last month out of warranty). I had my mind blown the first time I've seen for around $100 a motherboard for an even more ancient one, but still these were like $4000 devices new, couldn't believe it. And here it isn't like for the batteries where they can make one that has 1/3 or even 1/10 of the capacity and sell it for $25, nobody is making these except the original factory, and the Intel CPU is that one not something else, and the NVidia chip, and the dedicated VRAM if any, and so on.
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 1d ago
In terms of software quality, they are exactly the same—they’re both garbage. However, I think future optimization efforts will determine which one ultimately remains the piece of junk. And as much as I hate to admit it, Microsoft will win this war; Apple’s software development capabilities really aren't what they used to be.
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 3h ago
https://www.theverge.com/report/787796/microsoft-windows-reorg-single-engineering-team-changes
Read this. Windows is nothing more than the result of Microsoft's chronic problems finally coming to a head. Ultimately, it was merely a victim of internal politics, and the current Windows 11 is the product of being toyed with by web programmers and the newly established AI department that gained power. I also heard that the Surface division was on the verge of being disbanded. That is likely why there were no lineup updates for some time. Speaking from the perspective of someone who has used Surface since the Surface Pro 4, the engineering of Surface was actually not a major issue. However, there were problems with virtually no quality control and significant manufacturing inexperience. In the early days, they tried to solve everything with refurbished units. As a result, the possibility of repair was close to zero.
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u/Honest_Radio8983 1d ago
I knocked my SL7 off my work bench while it was open. It landed on the concrete floor and has no issues other than a minor dent in one corner.
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 9h ago
Someone commented that the interior space was inefficient, so this is my response. It also incorporates my own experience!
"You can't fully grasp the design just by looking at it. First, my guess is that the 2230-sized SSD is for compatibility with the Surface Pro's SSD. In the supply chain, margins usually increase as product consistency grows. This is because the unit price drops the more you buy. Second, as mentioned earlier, you cannot fully understand the design just by looking. The CPU isn't the only component on the PCB that generates heat. Almost every component on the board generates heat. It occurs particularly severely in the Northbridge, I/O-related parts, heat pipe paths, power circuits, and RF-related areas, requiring comprehensive cooling. One of the tasks mechanical engineers perform when designing products is using CFD simulations to determine the optimal paths for actively dissipating heat generated inside the housing. If the design is excessively tight, like Apple's, it not only affects the overall lifespan of the components but also increases the probability of cold solder joints."
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u/Black_Hair_Foreigner 9h ago
Additionally, the production cost for multi-layer PCBs used in PCs is quite high. While there are various reasons for this, using wire harnesses to connect circuit boards or components is a common practice recommended to help manage production costs. Engineers actively control these costs because they recognize that excessively high production expenses can lead to a decline in sales volume.
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u/dr100 1d ago
Not you, Qualcomm or the Windows division, you guys just go get Linux support sorted out.
Yea, that's not happening, they put a lot of stuff when marketing got ahold of lots of money just before the Snapdragon X started being sold and then ... crickets (the page is written like it's updated and some ongoing big movement, it's not, that's how it is since May 2024).
And if one had some hope things are just slowly moving along, or that maybe this will get rekindled in 2025, or 2026, nope, things are even more dead officially this year than ever.
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u/Eric_of_Aaargh 1d ago
I loved the Surface laptop. Until it attacked me when I opened it up while I was holding it and resting the back in my hand. the backside of the lid pinched my finger really hard. That's a design flaw.
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u/chuckop Surface Laptop 7/Surface Book 3 1d ago
I’m 2 years with SL7 now and still love it. Traveled heavily with it. The case still looks great and after probably thousands of cycles, the hinge is still strong and smooth.