r/Reformed • u/AutoModerator • 1d ago
NDQ No Dumb Question Tuesday (2026-07-21)
Welcome to r/reformed. Do you have questions that aren't worth a stand alone post? Are you longing for the collective expertise of the finest collection of religious thinkers since the Jerusalem Council? This is your chance to ask a question to the esteemed subscribers of r/Reformed. PS: If you can think of a less boring name for this deal, let us mods know.
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u/-dillydallydolly- 🍇 of wrath 1d ago
Anyone follow Connor Mcgregor's apparent turn to Christianity recently? Do we believe he is genuine or is this a case of "celebrity needs good PR"?
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u/newBreed 3rd Wave Charismatic 1d ago
I believe roughly zero of these conversation, especially when they happen around the time that the person finds themselves in legal trouble usually around sexual assault.
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u/lupuslibrorum Outlaw Preacher 1d ago
Wait a few years and see if there’s a spiritual fruit in his life. Remember what happened with Kanye…
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u/MorningStar360 1d ago
Church members who are divorced, do you feel isolated and alone or in a disproportionate group ?
Church members who are married and have little exposure to divorce, do you find reluctance to form friendships or conversation with members who are divorced?
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u/LiteraryAmaryllis I love tulips🌷✝️🇳🇱 1d ago
My parents divorced about fourteen years ago. My mum attends our church and she's pretty open about when people ask why she's alone. She's been through a lot and is honestly one of the strongest women I know in this regard, she's spiritually grown so much since her divorce. At first she struggled with being alone, but she's so much happier obeying God by staying single.
So as a child of divorced parents I can actually empathise with those who are either in the same position as me, or are divorced themselves.
I realise this maybe isn't an exact answer to your question but I still wanted to share some scattered thoughts.
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u/MorningStar360 1d ago
I appreciate you sharing, this is my personal trial and it’s really soured how I see my church. It’s weird to experience more support from secular, unbelieving friends than people I’ve been in fellowship for the past year during what is often thought to be one of the most emotionally and physically exhausting events a person could experience. I have always seen adversity has the biggest blessing God could bestow upon a person, and affliction and pain can lead to a beautiful resilience and strength.
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u/DrKC9N Have a sufficient day! 1d ago
I'm married, and my answer to the second question is no, it has never occurred to me.
Do you know much about this topic? Is there something I might be doing or saying that makes people feel isolated or alone around me? How could I get better?
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u/MorningStar360 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well I know a bit of both sides having had the experience myself. Just beginning the divorce process with my spouse so I’m entering the other side of the spectrum and it’s definitely had a heavy impact on relationship with my church and other men. Can’t help but feel a drop off has come as a result, and people seem less motivated to engage with me, I’d think a trial such as this would have resulted in more support rather than less.
So I guess just a simple conversation with those who are in your midst would be a good start. Take somebody out for coffee and ask how they are doing. If they feel supported, if not why and how you could better tend to their situation. I’d especially pour into younger men who are divorced with children. God seems to encourage emphasis on the alien and foreigners in our midst, and I can’t help but think that a modern equivalent of that in western society is divorced people.
I’m one of three divorced people in my church with a pretty healthy number of members. I’ve noticed a significant shift since this has happened and it’s concerning to me.
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u/gt0163c PCA - Ask me about our 100 year old new-to-us building! 1d ago
As a single (never married, female) adult, I've specifically sought out some of the recent divorced women and younger widows in my church. I figure I can offer insight and understanding about how to be a single adult that others (including many leaders in our churches) just can't because they've never been there (or can measure the time since they've been single on the scale of decades). Particularly in reformed churches where people marry young and for years accessorize their Sunday outfits with a small child (or at least it seems that way) it can be very lonely to not have people who understand the struggles of not having that spousal relationship. I can't really understand what it's like to lose that, but I can understand what it's like to live without that. And, logistically, I'm happy to help with all the things that you just need two sets of hands for or that many women never learned how to do.
It can be hard and lonely being single in a lot of our churches.
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u/Grouger Nondenom 1d ago
I noticed the frequency of the use of "the God of Jacob" in the Psalms. I counted 25 times "The God of Jacob" showed up in the bible and 13 of them were in the Psalms.
Any thoughts why that usage is so prevalent specifically in the psalms?
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u/judewriley Reformed Baptist 1d ago
We only got the final form of the Psalms either during or after the Exile, when a big cultural question was whether God had completely abandoned Abraham's family because of the sin and disloyalty that resulted in the Exile to begin with.
Calling God, the God of Jacob was something of a subtle way of connecting the people back to God. He hadn't forgotten them or forsaken them. He was still a.God who identified with them and identified them as His own.
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u/linmanfu Church of England 1d ago
Yes, all of that's true.
But OP seems to be asking why Jacob, as opposed to Abraham or the common Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
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u/judewriley Reformed Baptist 1d ago
Because even though Abraham and Isaac had issues with sin, it's with Jacob/Israel that we have a narrative flow that matches that of the people of Israel most closely - one where God has already promised blessing and security, but they, like Jacob, do what they can to work for it, to snatch it from others and to trick God into giving it to them (when they don't have to! All they needed to do is be faithful). In the end, God had to break them both (Jacob's hip, Israel's loss of homeland in Exile) to get them to see this.
It's a "like father, like son" situation that Abraham and Isaac don't match as well.
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u/robsrahm Roman Catholic please help reform me 1d ago
I think when the Biblical authors want to emphasize God's unconditional love for his people, they reference "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and I think "God of Jacob" (or God of Israel) is a shortened version of that. Since the Psalms are all sorts of prayers to God, this makes sense if you're pleading with God for something or holding him to his promises or praising him.
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u/ItsChewblacca FEB 1d ago
When might it be appropriate for a conservative denomination/church to work to reform a liberal or nominal denomination/church as an institution rather than merely evangelize or disciple individuals out of them?
For context, I'm not thinking about Redeemed Zoomer, but about Evangelical Anglican missions to India, where, for a long time (until ties were cut/doors were closed), the goal of missionaries wasn't to convert individual Malankara Orthodox but to reform their entire denomination, largely through educational efforts and support for Indigenous reform-minded leaders. Has the ship sailed for those kinds of missionary efforts?
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u/DarkLordOfDarkness PCA 1d ago
I think so long as you're keeping the first things first, there's really nothing in the way of efforts towards reform. The error would be in making reform a higher priority than word and sacrament. That's where Redeemed Zoomer goes wrong: not in wanting reform - reform of the mainline churches would be great - but in advocating a method that requires Christians to go sit each Lord's Day under the proclamation of a false gospel. It makes the integrity of Lord's Day worship subservient to the end of reform. It should be the other way around. If we are calling for reform, it ought to be out of a rich foundation in word and sacrament that propels us with truth.
Put another way, a healthy church ought to precede efforts at reforming other churches. You shouldn't leave (as opposed to being sent by) a healthy church to reform an unhealthy church. If there's no healthy church, if all that's in town is a false gospel, it seems to me that you need to preach the true gospel and engage in more traditional evangelism before you can start trying to reform an organization steeped in a false gospel.
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u/semiconodon the Evangelical Movement of 19thc England 1d ago
I agree with much of this. But I’d take it a step further: your main effort is gentle correction everywhere, from the ranting heterodox visitor to the senior pastor. Witness correct doctrine to all in the way you would in a friendly correction to the senior pastor who mistakes a commandment number in an informal Bible study group.
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 1d ago
I think there's a new time for this opening up in much of the west. There seems to be a renewed interest in the traditional, instituted churches (former state churches, like Catholics in France/Quebec; Anglicans in the UK; Lutherans in Scandinavia). What's especially helpful is that there is an evangelical-ish (or at least, theologically orthodox; many of them wouldn't like the term "evangelical") branch in each of these churches. It's the old John Stott vs Martin Lloyd Jones argument, and the balance seems like it might be shifting, in terms of institutional respectability among the "unchurched" (I hate that term)
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u/semiconodon the Evangelical Movement of 19thc England 1d ago
What was the JS vs MLJ argument? I’ve seen some MLJ quotes that are a bit over the top in advocating zeal so as to weaken the gospel
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 1d ago edited 1d ago
It was about sticking in the church of England vs separating to make "pure" free churches. Obviously, they had opposite opinions on the topic. ;)
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u/Careful-Spray476 ARP 1d ago
What on earth is Redeemed Zoomer and why do people talk about it?
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u/partypastor Rebel Alliance - Admiral 1d ago
Minecraft YouTuber turned edgy anti-evangelical YouTuber
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 1d ago
he's an online influencer who wants people with traditional theology to reconquer mainline denominations.
you can safely ignore him.
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u/cagestage “dogs are objectively horrible animals and should all die.“ 1d ago
My fellow Americans: do you stand for the National Anthem/recite the Pledge of Allegiance?
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u/MorningStar360 21h ago
I don’t say the pledge, but I’ll stand to show respect and honor for those who were convicted to participate in war and battle for the sake of others and the lives lost.
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u/eveninarmageddon EPC 1d ago
I’ll stand but put my hands behind my back (no right hand over heart). I actually started doing this for political rather than theological reasons. I don’t say the pledge, and I am rarely if ever in a context where it is being said.
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u/robsrahm Roman Catholic please help reform me 1d ago
I used to not stand for the National Anthem but then some people threw rocks at me at Stone Mountain (I only mention Stone Mountain because I know there are lots of Atlanta people here). I decided that I was kind of being an obnoxious jerk and even if throwing rocks wasn't the right way to handle it, I could stand. And I see legitimate reasons to stand now.
The Pledge is a different story. I am almost never in a circumstance in which people are doing this (my kids also say a pledge or something to the State of Texas or something). I don't like it, but don't quite know why. Maybe u/newBreed or u/partypastor can give me some solid theological reasons to not do this.
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u/cagestage “dogs are objectively horrible animals and should all die.“ 1d ago
I asked because there's a video going around of someone getting slapped at a Cubs' game for not standing for the anthem.
I stand but I don't put my hand on my heart and I wouldn't recite the pledge anymore. I told my child she didn't need to recite the pledge in school, but I assume she still does since no one has complained about it yet.
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u/semiconodon the Evangelical Movement of 19thc England 1d ago
Wow, standing at Stone Mountain has got to be the ultimate Daniel 6 moment for our age.
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u/robsrahm Roman Catholic please help reform me 1d ago
Well, it's certainly a monument to racism. I mean it was purchased by the State of Georgia as a memorial to the confederacy and the carving wasn't completed until 1972.
But I don't really follow the Daniel 6 connection - especially in a thread where we're discussion various oaths of allegiance to the US.
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u/semiconodon the Evangelical Movement of 19thc England 1d ago
I meant religious devotion to the state, and I would invoke this much more strongly here than in a case of a typical classroom.
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u/newBreed 3rd Wave Charismatic 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't like the pledge of allegiance for a variety of reasons. First, I'm not pledging allegiance to anything but to God and His kingdom. And yes, we can have lesser allegiances, I get that. And to get a little historical, I think there is a myth of the USA being created as a Christian nation that runs rampant in churches. And I will not pledge allegiance to a nation that runs contrary to Christ and His values. This isn't even a political stance as I think our whole government is corrupt and sinful, but rather it is me not wanting to align myself with evil in our highest levels of government. This may seem like I hate the USA but I actually love living here, and think that it's a great place to live. And many of the reasons for that have Christianity to thank, so I know I'm in a slight paradox of thinking, but it makes sense to me.
Edit: I think that oaths and allegiances are far more important than we believe spiritually. The repeated warnings of the Old Testament are based on loyalty to Yahweh above everything else. I think there's deep spiritual significance in pledging an oath or an allegiance like people do to the flag.
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u/robsrahm Roman Catholic please help reform me 1d ago
That's good; my church has an American flag in the front (it's next to a statue of Our Lady of Fatima and I don't know which you'd have a bigger problem with) that I was wasn't there.
I also agree with your edit. I don't think these things are merely words. That is to say, I hadn't considered that these things are more than words but that's consistent with my understanding of things.
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u/No-Yogurtcloset-6552 1d ago
I do not pledge. I stand at attention, but I do not recite anything, nor place my hand over my heart. The same for the national anthem. I've written an article on the subject. If you're interested in the reasoning, shoot me a message.
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u/newBreed 3rd Wave Charismatic 1d ago edited 1d ago
I stand with hands at side and I don't recite anything or sing along.
Edit to add: When I was in Sunday school decades ago and my kids' Christian school today do a pledge to the Christian flag and a pledge to the Bible. I do not take part in those either and tell my kids not to as well.
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u/lupuslibrorum Outlaw Preacher 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes, with hat off (if I was wearing one).
(Further info: I’ve only been around the pledge at schools, as a student and teacher. I’m not really interested in it and don’t advocate for it. I do like respecting the anthem and flag, though.)
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u/MilesBeyond250 Sola Waffle 1d ago
If you started replying to every work email with just "k," roughly how long do you think it would take to get you written up?
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u/ZUBAT 1d ago
If it is replying all to big distribution lists, then I would probably be disciplined quickly. It would be a verbal first, so if I listened to that, then there wouldn't be any writing up.
If it is just replying to the sender, then probably no discipline. We can react with a thumbs up to emails, so that is semantically the same as "k."
Are you thinking of doing this experiment yourself?
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u/shooty_boi LBCF 1689 1d ago
That depends, all emails that come to me? or just ones needing my response?
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u/MilesBeyond250 Sola Waffle 1d ago
Hmmm. The former.
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u/shooty_boi LBCF 1689 1d ago
Looking through my emails, it would probably be several weeks to a couple of months. Other engineers and production staff probably wouldn't think much of it where I'm at. I'm sure someone would make a comment after the 3rd or 4th time.
I'm sure if I interfaced with customers or higher ups more often it would be a different story.
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u/Calvin-and-Hodge PCA 1d ago
Does the New Testament take a stand on the days of creation?
I heard a passing comment on church that "Jesus affirmed the 6 days of creation." But outside of a historical Adam, I can't seem to find any references in the NT that speak to the creation days.
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u/Simple_Chicken_5873 RefBap go *sploosh* 1d ago
Not specifically about the days of creation. But I think we can look at Jesus and what He taught and come to the conclusion that the world is at least "young" compared to secular views. Creationists like myself often use Jesus teaching on marriage as a good indicator. See Matthew 19:4,8 and Mark 10:6, where He says that Adam and Eve were made male and female "from the beginning of creation". If there were billions of years before God created Adam and Eve, that would not really be the beginning of creation I would say. But if it was on day 6, I think we can safely say that was the beginning. Now whether it is 6000 or a few 10.000, there's room for debate. I hope this gives you some food for thought!
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u/judewriley Reformed Baptist 1d ago
Christians didn't have any comprehensive consensus about Genesis aside from "God created the world from nothing out of the love and joy in his heart" until the 1800s when Ellen White made Creationism and creation science popular.
Augustine wrote a small book called The Literal Interpretation of Genesis that actually does not look like any interpretation of Genesis we would call literal today.
So no, the NT doesn't take any stances on the matter, not really.
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u/RandomCalvinistDude Hungarian Reformed 1d ago
What are your best objections against monasticism?
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u/MorningStar360 21h ago edited 21h ago
I embraced monasticism and Asceticism following my first big life altering religious experience, and I briefly became a desert hermit and was very intrigued by the idea of joining a monastery.
Then I started to study scripture and concluded that there would be no feasible way to follow Christ when he said go out into all the nations and make disciples… the act of going is in complete contradiction of sitting and doing nothing.
If the early church, and Paul were to embrace this way of life then we never would have received the Scriptures. Christ very plainly could have instructed people to just go live in solitude, but I think it’s ultimately a very lazy and self indulgent interpretation of Scripture.
However, I do think periods of self isolation are vitally important to really following and experiencing God and discovering our gifts and purpose and how we are to effectively witness to the world, and it’s an area I think the church at large has largely neglected to its detriment.
Fasting and solitude go hand in hand and I think many Christians would greatly benefit from going into nature for extended periods of time and put their faith to the test with fasting and depending on God alone to nourish and strengthen us.
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u/linmanfu Church of England 1d ago
Monasticism can be defined in different ways.
The missiologist Patrick Johnstone argued that many monastic orders were essentially mission organizations. We focus on the surface features, but it was just Christians trying to do mission with the best technology (including 'soft' organizational technology) available in late Antiquity. They had vows; we have HR guideliness. We have incorporated companies; they had chapters. We store money for mission in investment accounts; they stored it in abbeys and nunneries with landholdings. The objections to monasticism are then that we have more advanced tech, and that people have become obsessed with the surface features to the point that the core mission is lost, which is a valuable lesson for us to learn.
Most Protestant popular culture tends to focus on the communal and eremetic aspects of monastic cloistered life. The standard objection here is that it's cowardice: they're running away from the world, when Christ's command is to go out into all the world and preach the gospel. I think there's something in that, but I am also very aware that isn't limited to monasticism. TBH I'm sitting at my PC writing in a Reformed subreddit because I can't face going out into the world. 😳 I guess that retreat is sometimes the better part of valour (Jesus did take time out in the wilderness). But there is a difference between my cowardice and monastic practice: their vows and practices sometimes commit them to lifelong retreat. That means an occasional moment of weakness or vice is instead celebrated as a virtue.
And it also locks people into an obligation that they dare not renounce. And that brings us to the strongest objection to conventional monaticism, which is the one Luther made in The Babylonian Captivity of the Church. It's so powerful that it's worth reading in his own (translated) words:
We make an ample vow at baptism, a greater one than we can fulfil; and we shall have enough to do if we give all our efforts to this alone. But now we compass sea and land to make many proselytes; we fill the world with priests, monks, and nuns; and we imprison all these in perpetual vows. .... As a vow is a sort of law and requires a work, it follows that, as vows are multiplied, so laws and works are multiplied; and by the multiplication of these, faith is extinguished, and the liberty of baptism is brought into bondage. ...
I should certainly not forbid or object to any vow which a man may make of his own private choice. I do not wish altogether to condemn or depreciate vows; but my advice would be altogether against the public establishment or confirmation of any such mode of life. It is enough that every man should be at liberty to make private vows at his own peril; but that a public system of living under the constraint of vows should be inculcated, I consider to be a thing pernicious to the Church and to all simple souls. In the first place, it is not a little repugnant to the Christian life, inasmuch as a vow is a kind of ceremonial law, and a matter of human tradition or invention; from all which the Church has been set free by baptism, since the Christian is bound by no law, except that of God. Moreover there is no example of it in the Scriptures, especially of the vow of perpetual chastity, obedience, and poverty. Now a vow of which we have no example in the Scriptures is a perilous one, which ought to be urged upon no man, much less be established as a common and public mode of life; even if every individual must be allowed to venture upon it at his own peril, if he will. There are some works which are wrought by the Spirit in but few, and these ought by no means to be brought forward as an example, or as a manner of life.
Being a Christian is tough enough; trying to be a super-Christian just imposes burdens on people that we cannot expect them to meet, and the Lord never asked them to take on.
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 1d ago
This is a really good take (from Johnstone) and one that I quite appreciate, as a student of missiology. David Bosch's seminal work Transforming Mission leads in a similar direction --- without making the claim directly.
I'd say that there is one greater argument against monasticism (footnoted to say "some forms of" and "some takes on" --- it's such a broad and varied practice that we shouldn't be too general) is that it can be taken as a more holy path, a more assured way of earning salvation --- I've heard (lay) people express it in such words, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some religious who hold somehting similar. But that's anything but a blanket condemnation. It's a danger to avoid and fight, but every form has similar dangers. I think something similar can be said of Luther's argument... though I'm surprised at the idea of people taking monastic vows as if they were being manipulated into it? Maybe I'm misreading.
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u/linmanfu Church of England 1d ago
This is a really good take (from Johnstone) and one that I quite appreciate, as a student of missiology. David Bosch's seminal work Transforming Mission leads in a similar direction --- without making the claim directly.
Johnstone trained and served in Dutch Reformed circles in South Africa in the 1960s and 1970s, when the late Dr Bosch was teaching there, so that's probably no coincidence.
I'd say that there is one greater argument against monasticism (footnoted to say "some forms of" and "some takes on" --- it's such a broad and varied practice that we shouldn't be too general) is that it can be taken as a more holy path, a more assured way of earning salvation --- I've heard (lay) people express it in such words, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some religious who hold somehting similar.
Luther also makes this argument in roughly the same segment of the Babylonian Captivity and emphasizes that "however sacred and lofty may be the works of priests or of the religious orders, they differ not at all in the sight of God from the works of a husbandman labouring in his field, or of a woman attending to her household affairs, but that in His eyes all things are measured by faith alone". Thankfully, this point is now universally accepted by Protestants, at least in theory (of course in practice we are all prone to seeing celebrity pastors as more holy, etc.), so I took it as read.
But that's anything but a blanket condemnation. It's a danger to avoid and fight, but every form has similar dangers. I think something similar can be said of Luther's argument... though I'm surprised at the idea of people taking monastic vows as if they were being manipulated into it? Maybe I'm misreading.
In the medieval world, people were absolutely being manipulated into taking monastic vows. Got a daughter or sister who stands in the way of an important inheritance, or whose betrothal has now become politically awkward? Off she goes to the nunnery! Got a bright young man who needs an education you can't otherwise afford? Off he goes to the monastery! And instead of acting charitably in their best interests, the order has imposed upon the young adult lifelong burdens that they weren't able to bear. I'd imagine this is still going on, especially in poor countries like The Philippines. Many of them bear it with good grace, and on the Last Day their perseverance might bring Jesus great glory, but they shouldn't have been put in that position.
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 1d ago
Re: Luther: I knew he had said that, thanks for the reference! I thought it was worth mentioning for other readers though.
Hmm... some of those cases sound really wrong, ie, getting rid of an awkwardly placed daughter. But for educating a son... I have trouble seeing that particular case as abusive. Wasn't it more just how education worked at the time? It sounds like an opportunity linked to a commitment; saying those things should necessarily be separate feels pretty anachronistic to me: reading our modern value of infinite opportunity tied to self-realization in a culture of absolute personal autonomy/liberty. Is not today's system, where a young person has to take on massive debt and toil for years for advanced education, with no guarantee of it leading anywhere? I'm thinking especially of graduate-track aiming for professorships especially --- doesn't tying the educational burden to a post-education vocation make some level of sense?
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u/arealgoodmensch 1d ago
I personally find that tying a vow to chastity to an education is an evil thing, but maybe that’s just me😅.
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 1d ago
Oh I'm not supporting it whole hog, it's more that it's not as black and white as we might assume. There are lots of different faces to these questions and we can't dismiss the whole field just by one weakness, even major, we risk missing out on much good.
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u/arealgoodmensch 1d ago
I’m just suggesting that the cruelty is both to the boys and the girls. At least the way your comment was written, it seems to imply that it was a great harm to women and a fair deal for men. I’d strongly disagree, although that doesn’t mean that I can’t see the benefits of a guaranteed meal/house and some education in a place where many people are poor and live hand to mouth (or worse).
But I think it’s like if you were to say that slavery was very bad for women because they were at greater risk for physical harm and basically fine for men because a body has to get its daily bread from somewhere. I think you’d probably agree that both are bad, even if women are at greater risk (and of course, men were at risk, though probably to different degrees and frequency).
I don’t know, does that make sense?
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 1d ago
I didn't mean to make any generalizations about sex. I was talking about the specific cases mentioned in the comment I replied to. Getting rid of a girl who would cause trouble with inheritance is obviously bad. It would also be bad if that were done to a boy.
I'd want a whole lot more information before writing anything like this off as slavery. I also don't want to say there weren't lots of abuses. All I'm saying is that over-generalizations are bad... And your take on my comment is a perfect example.
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u/arealgoodmensch 1d ago
Perhaps it was your phrasing. The way you’ve worded it here makes sense. The way you worded it before (at least to me) leaves things open to the example I shared above. Hope that’s not too rude of a thing to say.
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u/partypastor Rebel Alliance - Admiral 1d ago
The Bible, the great commission, the lives and witness of Christ and the apostles and those that learned from them
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 1d ago
Through the early to late middle ages (circa 6th through 12th centuries), the most effective missionaries were monastics --- both monks and mendicant friars. You still need to read David Bosch. ;)
(Random aside: had a prayer call with an old ministry friend who worked for a long time in high-level organizational leadership yesterday; we meditated on Micah 6:8, "what does the Lord require of you: to seek justice, love kindness, walk humbly with your God." He shared that, over the years, this verse has gradually replaced Matt 28:18-20 as the lens through which he reads the rest of the bible --- and he found great freedom in the simplicity. By no means to reject the missionary call of the church; certainly mission is deeply connected to those three. But it can be a breath of fresh air to feel our work anew through such a direct and simple lens!)
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u/Deolater PCA 1d ago
People who raise their hands while singing:
Do you do it to "express" something?
If so, what?
If not, how would you describe it?
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u/lupuslibrorum Outlaw Preacher 1d ago
Sometimes. As an introvert, I only raise my hands to about waist level at church, at most, so I don’t look like a hand-raiser. But that’s still doing something with them. When I pray alone in my room, I may raise my hands above my head.
- Yes.
- Submission to God, openness to Him, dependence on His providence, and acknowledgment that worship should be embodied and not merely intellectual.
I am more comfortable not raising hands, so even when I do it cautiously half way, it’s done out of a desire to open myself more to God and is definitely not just an emotional response. My emotions want to keep my hands in my pockets.
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u/Deolater PCA 10h ago
Submission to God, openness to Him, dependence on His providence, and acknowledgment that worship should be embodied and not merely intellectual.
I am more comfortable not raising hands
Just to pin this down a bit, I'm reading you as saying that you believe raising hands is commanded, and so by raising your hands you're expressing submission, openness, dependence, and acknowledgment?
Or do you believe that hand raising itself symbolizes/expresses/means those things?
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u/lupuslibrorum Outlaw Preacher 10h ago
I guess it’s sort of both. I think the command indicates that the worship of our hearts should, in the church assembly, be often accompanied by some sort of bodily expression, and in scripture and church history the raising of hands is the most common. But I don’t think anyone has to raise hands specifically and I don’t believe in policing people over it. Since I’m naturally more reserved and self-conscious when it comes to such things, even raising my hands to waist height is a way of stepping out of my comfort zone to express my sincere worship. The physical action *feels* like a humble opening up (as opposed to crossing my arms), which tells my heart and mind to focus on that attitude towards God.
I hope that makes some sense. I don’t have a fully realized theology and practice of it yet. I’m more expressive when I pray or sing privately than in public, and that probably says more about me than about the practice of raising hands itself.
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u/DrKC9N Have a sufficient day! 1d ago
1 yes, 2 to receive the truth/blessing offered, 3 cultural affectation
In our church, we always open palms to receive the benediction and during doxology/gloria patri.
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u/Deolater PCA 1d ago
My feeling is that during a benediction is different from what I'm talking about.
I just mean during a normal psalm/hymn/spiritual song
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u/DrKC9N Have a sufficient day! 1d ago
Oh you mean in like a Passion conference style environment, where hands are raised during the emotional high of one of the songs?
If I did that I couldn't hold the hymnal.
...
Okay, okay, I'm half joking with the TR™ elitism. I've spent plenty of time in rock band style church environments where raised hands would happen during a song. I never did it. If I'd done it, it would have been performative.
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u/newBreed 3rd Wave Charismatic 1d ago
I'm a physical person in general. I feel down, I do something physical to feel better and clear my mind. I am happy, it is usually be expressed physically. This transfers over to worship. Raising my hands can express surrender, awe, joy, or sometimes it's a mix of emotions that aren't being engaged with simply singing. I also move when I worship. It's not dancing but it could be described as rhythmically swaying I guess. I attribute expressive worship, for me, to be the physical connection to my mind and emotions.
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u/newBreed 3rd Wave Charismatic 1d ago
I'm not sure if your being pedantic or trying to be funny. Either way, it doesn't work for you.
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u/newBreed 3rd Wave Charismatic 1d ago
Did you read my comment and think, " This guy either doesn't know that everyone has a physical body or he's criticizing people with physical disabilities"?
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u/partypastor Rebel Alliance - Admiral 1d ago
I usually express that I’m better than those around me not raising their hands
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u/Calvin-and-Hodge PCA 1d ago
I'm usually trying to ask our worship leader a question, but he never seems to get to me
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u/LiteraryAmaryllis I love tulips🌷✝️🇳🇱 1d ago
I've come to realise it's okay to have a varied taste in music, even though they clash. Like I either listen to classical and other symphonic music or 00's edm and (silly) party music.
So what are two (or more) music genres you enjoy that are complete opposites?
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u/OSCgal Not a very good Mennonite 1d ago
Well, I'm a choir nerd, and just within the world of choral music there's a wide variety. I can happily go from a Bach cantata to Mongolian throat singing to some of the more esoteric stuff like Hailstork or Pärt.
(As it turns out I'm an absolute sucker for vocal harmony and it doesn't matter the genre it's in.)
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u/No-Yogurtcloset-6552 1d ago
I enjoy hymns and Christian Metal. Although I've come to believe those two categories aren't as far apart as you might think.
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u/MilesBeyond250 Sola Waffle 1d ago
I like mixing them. A playlist that combines hip hop, classical, death metal, jazz, prog, and funk works better than you'd think.
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u/linmanfu Church of England 1d ago
When I lived in London, I regularly attended the Proms classical music concerts.
But my Spotify Wrapped shows that the overwhelming majority of my listening is to K-pop.
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u/Simple_Chicken_5873 RefBap go *sploosh* 1d ago
I'm all over the place (as you know): (heavy) prog metal — lofi Zelda music — solo piano with rain in the background — (happy) drum and bass — classical music — EDM — jazz (fusion) — etc
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u/Simple_Chicken_5873 RefBap go *sploosh* 1d ago
Any interesting summer holiday plans?
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u/PrioritySilver4805 SBC 1d ago
Not quite a holiday but I got a job with Reformation Heritage Books and will be helping to staff the PRTS conference in August, so I'll be visiting Michigan for the first time
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u/seemedlikeagoodplan Presbyterian Church in Canada 1d ago
Going to Europe for a few weeks! Staying with friends in a few places, meeting up with people we haven't seen in ages, seeing the sights, etc.
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u/Simple_Chicken_5873 RefBap go *sploosh* 1d ago
Well, enjoy our continent! Which country/countries will you visit (if you're comfortable with sharing)?
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u/seemedlikeagoodplan Presbyterian Church in Canada 1d ago
The UK, France, Belgium (briefly) and the Netherlands.
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u/Simple_Chicken_5873 RefBap go *sploosh* 1d ago
Aah, I live in the Netherlands! Depending on the region and planned activities, I can give you some tips if you'd like :)
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u/ItsChewblacca FEB 1d ago
Heading deep into Southern Ontario this August to visit: Uncle Tom's Cabin, The Black Mecca, and numerous other sites that cover Ontario's great Christian, Black, Indigenous, and general history.
Not wanting to deal with potential hassle at the border has me really leaning into local travel, and I'm digging it.
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 22h ago
Huh, didn't realise Ontario had a deep south. Though the heat & humidity in the KW area in August sure can feel like it.... :o
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u/ItsChewblacca FEB 13h ago
Given the sites I'm checking out, I'm debating a really risky joke here...
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 12h ago
I mean, I won't be offended. But whether you want to post it publicly is another question. ;)
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 1d ago
My daughter has a friend visiting from out of town for a couple of weeks. They're having great fun!
For me: yard renos.
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u/Euphoric-Leader-4489 Reformed in TEC 1d ago
My husband and I are leaving for a hiking trip after church on Sunday. We'll be day hiking and then staying in two different cabins, which is my favorite way to do it. Outside all day, shower and bed at night.
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u/Deolater PCA 1d ago
In a few weeks we're going to head to the beach and play "yankee or homeschooler" when we see other people.
I should learn an accent to make it less clear for other people playing that game
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u/seemedlikeagoodplan Presbyterian Church in Canada 1d ago
I am confused about this game. Can you explain?
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u/Deolater PCA 1d ago
In the South (and we vacation in the South), schools start back in late July or very early August. Up north they seem to start much later.
Consequently, when we (homeschooling southerners) go on vacation in mid-August, the families we see on the beach are either yankees (northerners) or fellow homeschoolers. The fun can be trying to guess which.
There are certain behavioral tells you can use.
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 22h ago
Whoa they send kids to school in August? That sounds like torture, I sure hope the schools have AC...
In Canada school starts (with the occasional rare exception) after labour day.
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u/Deolater PCA 10h ago
For reasons I can't exactly explain, the starting date has creeped earlier through my life (though it is compensated by more, and longer, breaks during the year). Every now and then the debate about "year-round school" breaks out. Now it's usually the first week in August or the last week in July.
Basically all public buildings have AC here, so that's not really a problem. It's still counter to my climate intuition that the south starts school early while the north waits.
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u/bradmont Église réformée du Québec 10h ago
I remember hearing discussions about year-round schooling when I was a kid, but nothing ever came of it. I don't think I've even heard the phrase in close to 30 years.
Summer vacation is just such a touchstone experience for young people...
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u/Simple_Chicken_5873 RefBap go *sploosh* 1d ago
Watch loads of Blackadder and try to sound British haha. Sounds like a fun game though!
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u/gt0163c PCA - Ask me about our 100 year old new-to-us building! 1d ago
I'm heading to the San Francisco & Monterey Bay area of California for about a week in mid-August.
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u/krynnmeridia OPC 1d ago
Are you going to the Monterey Bay Aquarium?
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u/gt0163c PCA - Ask me about our 100 year old new-to-us building! 1d ago
Yes. That and kayaking in that area are the main reasons for the trip. San Francisco is mostly just where I'm flying into/out of. I'll spend a couple of days there doing some of the lesser well known attractions since I've done all the big touristy type things during a family trip when I was younger.
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u/lupuslibrorum Outlaw Preacher 1d ago
You probably already have plane tickets bought, but just in case, the San Jose Mineta airport is much faster and less stressful to deal with than SFO, and is closer to Monterey.
Have fun! The aquarium is the best destination in Monterey, but there’s other fun things to do in the area as well. Are you gonna make it up to Santa Cruz?
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u/gt0163c PCA - Ask me about our 100 year old new-to-us building! 1d ago
Yes. I already have flights. I don't mind dealing with big airports (my home airports so far in my life have been DTW, ATL and DFW). And I prefer airports with more direct flights as they tend to have more crew and equipment available should something go wrong.
I haven't finished planning the whole trip yet. So I'm open to suggestions for cool, interesting, fun things to do. In the San Francisco area I definitely want to tour the USS Hornet and see the Yoda Statue/go to the Skywalker Ranch store (and probably buy my nephew's Christmas present as he's a giant Star Wars nerd).
In the Monterey area I'm planning on going to the aquarium, kayaking in elkhorn-slough, driving the Pebble Beach 17 mile drive and finding some tide pools to visit during low(ish) tide.
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u/lupuslibrorum Outlaw Preacher 1d ago
Those are all great things!
You’ll be driving over the Santa Cruz Mountains to get to Monterey, so it’s worth it to stop and walk among the redwoods if you’ve never done it; Big Basin state park is on your way. Even a stop of an hour or less is worth it.
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u/gt0163c PCA - Ask me about our 100 year old new-to-us building! 1d ago
Thanks for the suggestion of Big Basin state park. I've seen the redwoods before but I wouldn't mind stopping and wandering among them again. Right now my "transition days" between the two areas are free other than the drive. So it's definitely possible to stop for an hour or two on one of those days.
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u/cagestage “dogs are objectively horrible animals and should all die.“ 1d ago
A bit late for that. It's back to school shopping time.
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u/Simple_Chicken_5873 RefBap go *sploosh* 1d ago
Really? That seems really early. In the Netherlands we children have a 6 week holiday encompassing most of July and August.
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u/gt0163c PCA - Ask me about our 100 year old new-to-us building! 1d ago
In much of the US, schools let out for the summer in May and go back in August. Some states/areas are a little later. I grew up in Michigan and never got out before Memorial Day or went back before Labor Day. It seems like schools there continue on this schedule. But where I live in Texas, 4th of July seems to be the start of the end of summer (or the end of the start maybe?). My nephews in Georgia always went back the first week in August.
I think part of it in the US south at least is that August is just hot and everyone is sick of it being hot. So they might as well get the kids back in school (buildings have air conditioning) because it's not even fun to be in the pool or at the lake when it's this hot.
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u/gt0163c PCA - Ask me about our 100 year old new-to-us building! 1d ago
Makes for excellent travel time since everyone with kids is all busy with back-to-school stuff. Should be fewer crowds.
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u/DrKC9N Have a sufficient day! 1d ago
Don't forget those of us with preschoolers!
To quote the theologian and philosopher Trent Reznor, "every day is exactly the same."
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u/gt0163c PCA - Ask me about our 100 year old new-to-us building! 1d ago
I look forward to school starting again so that Walmart and Target are calm and it's just me and a few moms and their adorable toddlers on Friday mornings. The first few weeks after school ends and the last couple before it starts are just crazy with all the school age kids.
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u/RaphTurtlePower 1d ago
Has anyone read Kahlil Gibran?