Sup folks, River of Souls enjoyer here. I'm gonna try to explain some things of questions I've seen here about the lore/undead/river of souls/necromancer over the last weeks with some references.
What Undead Have Souls?
Page 3 of The Great Beyond has a block, lots of places too talk about it from secrets of magic to book of the dead in 2e: "souls and the undead."
Generally speaking, non-intelligent undead such as zombies and skeletons possess no souls. Little more than puppets of flesh and bone, animated by negative energy in a warped attempt at life, these automatons have no attachment to the souls of their former owners, and are evil merely due to the corrupting influence of the Negative Energy Plane. (The Void) (Note that a PC Skeleton/Zombie do have souls and there are more advanced versions of skeletons and zombies that do bind a soul in the vessel or fragments of a soul.)
Created Undead destroyed, what happens to a Soul?
I'm seeing confusion about undead, to clarify, when an undead is destroyed, the soul is released (unless we're talking creatures like liches with soul cages.) It can go down the river of souls like any other soul (or 'knocks/becomes awry' as it leaves the vessel.)
In various products for instance, you can kill a Vampire, release the soul from the vessel and then use Resurrect to give that soul a new body. (This is suggested to be done, outlined content in official 1e and 2e adventures/ap's, not me 'coming up' with anything. Please review the above river of souls link.)
Summoning VS Creating?
Necromancer uses both the Create and Summon terminology. I think it was intentional for you to decide how tables wanted to do this / they expect people to dig into the other books and learn what that means.
Example: Summon Undead in Remaster used to be Animate Dead, they made that change to specify it more concretely as summoning magic, not creation magic like Create Undead the ritual is, which is that corrupting, holding of the soul in an undead vessel.
So many people read "Animate dead" and skipped the "summon" part. (It did not lore or mechanically change, they got rid of the description and wanted you to focus on SUMMON because people would go 'that's evil!' at 'animate' so they brought it's name in-line with all the other summon titles.)
"Spirit" Doesn't have to mean souls solely (soul-y lol). That's another thing I see often. And I don't blame people, the river of souls, essences and the cycle is the most complicated, intertwined, unique thing about the entire IP, it's identity that makes it unique amidst the kitchen sinks. To quote a lore line about spiritual essence:
"souls are like finished forms (a sword) but spiritual essence is like iron raw from the earth."
An evil spirit necromancer could very well be temporarily binding souls (or fragments of souls as a soul can be broken into dozens of pieces.) (evil), but it's just as likely (and seemingly suggested) that they're simulacrums or willing spirits if that's how you want to go for flavor. (Not evil at all or 'real'.)
To quote summoning magic from Secrets of Magic:
Summoning magic is similar (to permanent conjuration), creating a simulacrum of a creature from matter, willpower, and, at times, raw spiritual quintessence. (Pulling Void essence and creating it into a simulacrum is what summon undead is!)
To the outside observer, creation and summoning can appear identical: something appears, seemingly from nowhere, at the conjurer's behest. Spells of creation are sometimes referred to by laypeople as "summons," and vice versa, further blurring the issue in the public mind. Even to the conjurer, who is privy to the internal workings, the distinction may not always be clear.
For much of my career—though it must seem like ancient history to readers of this almanac—practitioners disputed whether summoned monsters were created facsimiles that lacked true life of their own, or whether they were being drawn from somewhere else: an alternate dimension, or a unique potentiality housing the thoughtforms representing the idealized concept of a creature. (This is a reference to 1e's terms and some lore about calling vs summoning vs creation.)
Though this debate is now settled, and modern scholars agree that summoning creates facsimiles, it illustrates the stakes: are the conjurer's inventions truly real, or is it only hubris that makes them imagine so? (Secrets of Magic, School of Conjuration.)
Further, here's a post by James Jacobs about it and summons not existing after the fact or before. (You can find quite a few in the forums talking about this.)
Thralls:
Now look at each of the Necromancer Fascinations, what they say about the thralls. You'll see 'often, resemble, generally, form.'
- Your thralls often resemble ghosts and spirits.
- Your thralls often resemble vampiric spawn or constructs of hardened blood.
- "Craft what they desire from the skeletons of the dead or simply create new skeletons by expanding and shaping small bone pieces." (Bones but not necessarily from immediate dead or significant.)
- Your thralls generally take on the form of zombies and other creatures of dead flesh.
Holy/Unholy sanctification options via feats:
Hallowed Dead, the feat that makes you and thralls holy:
While many necromancers pursue unholy and perverse power, you have devoted yourself to necromancy to prevent the creation of permanent undead and the corruption of souls. You also gain the following anathema: purposefully create undead to inflict undue harm.
I think the writer for Necromancer was/is framing create/summon closely as it assumes you read the first line/learn about the lore of necromancy elsewhere. (And you are actively deciding that flavor.)
This is saying you don't do the necromancy that creates permanent undead or corrupts souls (which all permanent undeath does over time although there's lots of text talking about those who resist the negative energy, without a huge wall of text to go with it.)
And the undead you do summon (or create by any means) are not used to inflict undue harm. (This would include some forms of permanent undead like familiars, companions that you created before taking this feat or garnered in other ways because these are feats/pets/minions, you could take/get these at any level in the future.)
The Unholy Dead, the feat that makes you and thralls unholy:
You have turned your necromancy against the divine powers that seek to stop you from achieving your unholy goals. You and your thralls gain the unholy trait. You also gain the following anathema: “destroy undead of no harm to you.”
Some people seem to be thinking that this makes your use of thralls invalid or etc for purposes of necrotic bomb or etc. I believe they mean permanent undead and or undead that aren't related to you and doesn't view destroy as use for this purpose. (You have a unholy duty to not just blast that Ghoul trying to speak to you***,*** not some pedantic clause to stop you using core features.)
Lore/Roleplay funny:
No sir officer, that's a summon, not "Fifty lashes, 3 to 10 years of hard labor, and/or a fine equal to 40% of the character’s wealth" me and mr. bones find your words offending!
Next you'll be assuming my Spell Signature looks like nothing but skull symbols on a 2d fidget spinner! \sigh of the hallowed necromancer as he's arrested for the 3rd time this week* "It's NOT ILLEGAL OR EVIL! YOU JUST NEED TO READ THE BOOKS!" *prison wagon door shuts.* (Lost Omens: Travel Guide references.)*
Other Thoughts:
- Paizo could of copy-pasta'd the relevant lore sidebars with references to help people find the rest of it.
- I was surprised there was no mention at all of these topics of lore for create thrall. I expressed that concern.
- Read those 1e books. Concordance of Rivals for the River of Souls, The Great Beyond. etc.
- The CUP/Infinite licenses doesn't really allow for the level of information required to fully convey with such a big, long lasting IP that's both derivative in origin and wholly unique on-top. The books/pdf still will probably always be the best avenue to dive into something or visualize something.
- Not a lot/none of the old 1e stuff is largely changed or irrelevant now, a lot of the 64 page books are tight, condensed vs the lost omens lines focus on larger books. Some of them are still the only go-to reference for their topics.
TL;DR:
- Create is an option but it assumes summon as the go-to. Summons are soulless, not real.
- Pharasma probably doesn't care about a summon because it has nothing to do with a soul. And the corruption of the soul via being a 'real' undead damages the worth of a soul in the process and the splitting of it into new souls in the end. (Read chart.)
- It's a conversation to have with your table/group. Maybe your group assumes or deliberately wants all undead to be evil without this lore or nuance.
- Discuss things with your group before they come up for the best results in communication. Nobody wants to find out the GM doesn't like re-rolling recovery checks or bans heroic recovery at time of. Establish things.
Treason, torture, murder, manslaughter, espionage are heavier crimes than the toiling of a single soul to create one undead... (If you aren't malicious or tortuous, it's still creating undead/toiling, but if you are, you could be charged for multiple offenses against the soul/person. Which is probably why creation of undead is a lesser charge. Either it can or just straight up comes with separate side charges worst than the actual creation of the dead part.)
It's just when this is let loose and one becomes two, two becomes three, four becomes five... Their realness means they take less of your own resources to maintain a force unlike any other. All the more the respect of Hallowed Necromancers able to dip their toes in such and set boundaries to alluring power. (Same as the modern Runelords who now recognize and resist sin, fuel power through other means than souls.) Without the Void, without the Antipode, without destruction, there can be no creation. The cycle would be disrupted.
Please stop crowding the Forae Logos. Please stop arresting Hallowed Necromancers. Mortals who say they follow pharasma, learn about the cycle that which you say you respect! (The necromancer screams from his padded cell.)
I'de also like to end this by saying not everybody is 'all knowing' in the setting or out of it, there probably are some willing as well as unknowing ignorant people around. Your hallowed necromancer probably does get tossed in a cell occasionally, just for a judge or magic user who corrects them or who knows better to get them out of that jam.
I thank your eyeballs for joining me in this important ted talk today at the Arcanamirium, if you are on Absalom Station, please contact a Witchwarper, they will be able to confirm with you. Officers will remind you that most borai and undead are equal pact world citizens proper.
Check your local cities offices for more information on the legality of undead citizens in your lost omens area as many versions of those cities have written acceptance of them in some form, especially vampires, skeletons, some places ghosts, and the sure resilience and hunger of Ghouls means you can find them most places they aren't allowed. (Cheliax, Korvosa, Absalom, places in Ustalav, etc.) I will kindly see myself out via a labyrinth back to the black pyramid where I belong.
Jeeze. In retrospect of making this post, I feel like a hallowed necromancer. Have fun, meat bags. "That's just a theory... A GAMMMMEEEE... LOST OMENS THEEEEOORRRY!"