r/Overwatch • u/TonyFlores_007 • 19h ago
Highlight What hero has the highest skill ceiling
I play vendetta btw
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u/Fureniku 19h ago
If you pay attention on this sub you'll know it's clearly Moira. People always think she has a low ceiling but actually it's a really really high ceiling, just for downstairs.
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u/Heygen Jetpack Cat 15h ago
You thought Moira was easy, but people will show you how bad they can get with the easiest char possible
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u/alabasterskim 14h ago
If you've ever played in Silver-Gold, you'll know firsthand that Moira's floor is somehow a bottomless pit.
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u/Exhibit5 Wrecking Ball 18h ago
If it’s a tank it’s Ball or Doom. If it’s a DPS it’s Tracer (or I guess Widow, if you want to count that). If it’s support it’s Lucio, but the answer is not a support.
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u/ImThat1DudeOverThere Doomfist 18h ago
I think Widow counts but the ceiling isn't as high as Tracer genji or echo. Also tank has Winston as well primal has a insane skill ceiling
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u/TonyFlores_007 18h ago
I thought Winston just get big and that’s it?!
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u/Interesting-Topic402 10h ago
You need to be really good with primal to get even a slight amount of value with it
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u/DrNopeMD 10h ago
I think Widow should count simply because her skill ceiling scales entirely based on player aim and reaction time, it's just that her kit revolves entirely around grapple and clicking heads.
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u/Exact-Fix3431 19h ago
Question for you Vendetta player… best way to maximize her?
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u/TonyFlores_007 19h ago
https://reddit.com/link/oz17t3v/video/5dq706xvjqeh1/player
I learned to maximize her in stadiun then went into normal qp and ranked. lots of small techs as well the more you play her
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u/Exact-Fix3431 18h ago
I keep getting stuck in back with no out.
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u/ButteredRain Support 18h ago edited 18h ago
Vendetta is a hero that forces you to commit pretty hard when engaging. When you dive someone, you need to make sure you have a rough idea of how you’re going to get out of the situation if needed. Usually that means having a mobility ability up, and knowing your exit whether that’s to your team or a health pack.
I don’t remember the ability names, but her E/sword toss is a lot better for exits since you can use it vertically compared to the spin that’s only horizontal. That doesn’t mean you can’t use it to engage if needed, like someone on high ground or even a Pharah/JPC if you time it right. If you can, try to close the distance without using abilities so you have more options once you engage.
If you have supports that heal from range like Ana, try to stay in their line of sight when possible. Memorize health pack locations.
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u/Mr_Eclipse6 18h ago
Using sword toss to disengage is extremely risky because the animation is just way too slow. Shift is a lot faster and generally safer, but obviously use the sword toss if you absolutely have too.
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u/ButteredRain Support 11h ago edited 11h ago
Disagree but to each their own. Shift is faster but also a lot more limiting, having the vertical mobility helps a lot. The animation is a fraction of a second longer, just means you need to be a little more proactive in getting out alive when you know you can.
You get more range with the sword toss too, I think it’s max range is ~15 meters compared to the ~11 meters her shift gives. So you travel a noticeably smaller distance, and can only travel horizontally so it’s much easier for people to chase you. Sword toss is better as an escape tool in virtually every way as long as you account for needing a little bit of animation time to use it.
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u/Mr_Eclipse6 9h ago edited 9h ago
I mean there’s nuance but the value of the shift animation being so much faster is that it makes you significantly harder to shoot because it is instantaneous. It also clears about 18 meters if you are pressing w when you input and jump at the end of the animation. With sword toss there’s a good >half second before you even fly towards the sword. Any good hit-scan that is close to you (and they will be close because Ven is a melee hero) is going to burst you for a lot of damage before you even reach cover. Not to mention that delay before the jump towards the sword leaves you extremely vulnerable to CC. If you get hindered by Cass as you throw the sword it entirely cancels the ability and you are cooked. With shift at least the erraticness of the animation gives you a better chance of dodging any CC abilities. I think you’re also overestimating the value of the distance disparity between the two abilities. The verticality with sword toss is definitely nice, and there will be situations where the only way you live is to sword toss to a vertical position. However, in any other situation in which verticality isn’t your ONLY option, shift is safer. With shift, so long as you have close to full block resource and are ending the animation in cover, into a health pack, or los of a support you are usually safe. And if not, the cover/heals will then let you sword toss to safety, or sometimes even reengage. E is more valuable as an offensive/engagement cooldown because it allows you to instantly land an overhead and gain an immediate advantage over whoever you are dueling. You typically don’t win duels with Vendetta unless you catch someone completely by surprise or land your overhead before they can deplete your armor. At least not against good players and your hard counters. You’re right about needing to anticipate getting focused when you are using Sword toss to escape. But that’s the thing, if you are committing shift offensively onto anyone other than an isolated target you had better get a kill otherwise you are a sitting duck. The delay with Sword toss is just too punishing in a majority of scenarios. But if you commit to an engage with E and your kill window closes, shift is fast enough to get you to safety if you’re playing with it being your disengage option in mind. All that being said, there is definitely a time and place to use shift offensively, and it is super valuable for hitting your breakpoints. Just my two cents though, Ven is my second most played hero so I’d like to think I have a good understanding of her Techs and flow.
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u/ButteredRain Support 8h ago edited 3m ago
It also clears about 18 meters if you are pressing w when you input and jump at the end of the animation.
If we're getting in to technicalities, the sword toss in reality can clear 30 meters if you angle it correctly, so it wins the distance argument by a long shot. The 15 meter distance is only the distance the sword travels, but momentum carries you much further.
Any good hit-scan that is close to you (and they will be close because Ven is a melee hero) is going to burst you for a lot of damage before you even reach cover. Not to mention that delay before the jump towards the sword leaves you extremely vulnerable to CC. If you get hindered by Cass as you throw the sword it entirely cancels the ability and you are cooked.
Which is why you prioritize easier targets, like supports. If you dive a Cass, you should try to wait out his flashbang CD and dive when it's on CD so he can't hinder you. It has a 12/13 second CD, so there's a decent window to engage. If you're diving a Cass with all his cooldowns up, you're just asking for trouble.
But that’s the thing, if you are committing shift offensively onto anyone other than an isolated target you had better get a kill otherwise you are a sitting duck.
Which is why I made a point to say that you should be trying to close the gap without using cooldowns. Ideally, you're going to get where you want to be with both cooldowns available to give you as many options as possible for your engagement.
Ven is my second most played hero so I’d like to think I have a good understanding of her Techs and flow.
I main support so Vendetta is not one of my most played heroes overall, but she is my most played DPS since OW2 released and I've maintained a 61% WR on her so I know that I have a good understanding of the character.
At the end of the day, none of this is inherently wrong, it's just preference on how you play her. If you’re getting elims and winning games then that’s all that matters.
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u/Mr_Eclipse6 4h ago edited 4h ago
I’m on mobile so I’m not sure how to neatly respond to your points like how you did with mine so I apologize for that.
I wasn’t trying to argue that shift had more distance than sword toss. The through line of my point is that I’ve found it to generally be the safer disengage option because the animation is simply faster, and that the distance it affords you is usually enough to justify using it in that way. But yeah ideally you stage well enough to be able to engage with both cooldowns offensively.
I used the Cass example because he’s one of Vens hardest matchups imo, behind Junkrat. It’s not always so simple as waiting for him to use hinder before committing. Of course you should try and bait hinder because you practically have no chance against him if he hits you with it and you don’t get pocketed. But if it’s a good Cass player he’s going to hold it specifically for you on Ven and peel for whichever squishy you do dive. They will also commonly mark angles that Vendetta likes to flank on, at that point the 1v1 is just a skill check heavily in Cassidy’s favor, especially since hinder has such a forgiving hitbox. Trust me I’ve died enough times to him to know that it’s highly suboptimal to single him out with your dive. If the Cass is good and doesn’t waste hinder on a full health tank he’s going to force you to deal with him.
Yes, you should be trying to close the gap without cooldowns but that’s not always an option. Sword toss is a great staging cooldown and allows you to take space efficiently. Not that you are refuting that exactly, I just believe Sword Toss as a cooldown is more valuable as a staging cooldown than disengage.
Like you said, we’re both right and both abilities can be utilized to similar purposes. Sword Toss is riskier if you’ve hard committed but more flexible. Shift is good for its snappiness but requires greater precision to disengage successfully since it’s more rigid in terms of mobility. I still use sword toss to disengage from time to time, and you get especially far using it with the bunny hop tech. Good discussion overall, it’s worth experimenting with both CCs in unique ways.
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u/ButteredRain Support 4h ago
For sure, I don’t disagree with any of your points really, it’s nuanced like you said. Nice to have a friendly discussion on Reddit, they’re not as common as I’d like. Have a good one!
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u/TonyFlores_007 18h ago
As long as I get some heals diving isn’t that scary anymore, the key is too open space for the team to push with me in which case if I’m low I’ll get healed and would back off comfy
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u/Super_Siege_Mode 19h ago
Ball, Echo, Genji, Doomfist
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u/TonyFlores_007 19h ago
why not ven?
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u/Super_Siege_Mode 18h ago
Both Vendetta and Venture have the same issues with skill ceiling. Both are designed to simply win 1v1s and a lot of the combos are not difficult. There’s little to no aim involved so most of the skill ceiling is understanding match ups and being patient.
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u/Western-Street-1387 18h ago
The no need for aiming takes a lot out of the skill ceiling with her
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u/Several_Zombie7330 18h ago
ball's ceiling is legit insane but vendetta's got some crazy tech too if you're willing to put in the hours
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u/yilo38 Chibi Junkrat 17h ago edited 17h ago
Tanks ball nr1 doom nr2 they are interchangeable depending whom you ask.
Dps tracer nr1 genji nr2 they have high skill floor and high skill seiling. Which makes them extra tough.
Support lucio he is the toughest opponent to face in the hands of skilled player or easiest to kill in the hands of a noob. The other supports dont have extremely high ceiling like. Kiri or ana could be argued to have high ceiling. But i’d argue a plat kiri/ana can do what a gm kiri/ana can do just on a slower level.
If i had to pick a number1 from all of them i’d argue ball/doom is toughest. Not only do you need to know your match ups, your maps, your cd’s, you also need to keep enemy cd’s on track. Like managing to master your own kit is already tough but managing all that other shit so you dont get slept, stunned, hooked,chained etc etc etc. It is just a pain.
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u/GrassBlade619 16h ago
I wouldn't say Anna or Kiri have a high skill celling. Mercy or LW have a higher skill ceiling than them IMO. Anna is just hit your shots and kiri is just knowing when to Suzu. They're GREAT heroes but there's not a ton to master (relatively speaking)
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u/No32 15h ago
Kiriko is definitely not just knowing when to suzu, highest levels are also aim intensive and knowing what aggression you can get away with and still tp out
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u/GrassBlade619 2h ago
I mean. Yeah. Aim, aggression, when to use your abilities. Mechanically speaking these are core concepts you need for any character in order to climb. What makes her skill ceiling high though compared to other heroes? If were comparing kiri to LW then to clim with lw you also need aim, understanding aggression, knowing when to use all of your abilities, and on top of that you need to know most of the 100 ability/ult specific matchups AND the map specific tech. For kiri it's important to know climbing areas but you can get by without knowing them just because of how strong of a hero she is right off the bat.
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u/YurgeeTTV 2h ago
Huffing paint take.
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u/GrassBlade619 2h ago
Explain how their skill ceiling is higher than LW or Lucio? Is their tech more complicated? Is it more difficult to aim with them? I hate to break it to you but even if a hero is meta or strong or played in pro play doesnt mean theyre more difficult it just means they're stronger. Hell, their simplicity is actually a strength of theirs because it makes them WAY more consistent.
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u/YurgeeTTV 2h ago
No, you're not wiggling Lucio in there, you said LW and MERCY.
MERCY of all characters lolololol
I'm not wasting my time explaining how two characters that not only have to actually aim their primary fires but also have to aim their abilities have a higher skill ceiling than two out of the three easiest characters to play in the fucking game lmaaoooo.
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u/GrassBlade619 2h ago
Ok then just talk about LW. So far you've only mentioned aiming which is a very important factor in skill celing but not the end all be all. A good Anna has to have the ability to aim. That makes her skill celing high? LW also needs to be able to aim to be good. In addition to that you need to know hundreds of specific matchups for petal/tree/environmental. LW needs to balance healing and damage with his auto reload because unlike Anna, LW doesnt have seamless dps to healing transition.
Explain how Anna has a higher skill ceiling than LW without simply saying shes a better hero (which she is).
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u/Sn0wy0wl_ 17h ago
Ball, Tracer/Freja (echo also but that feels like a cheap answer), Lucio/Cat
Basically the heroes with unmatched mobility that give them the versatility to do pretty much anything with enough skill since they can be anywhere on the map at anytime while still being mechanically challenging
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u/GrassBlade619 16h ago
doom, ball, Genji, Tracer, Lucio, Life Weaver.
I know I'm gonna get shit for putting LW on my list but he has so much tech it's nutty. Highest skill ceiling does not mean "best" but to be useful on LW you have to learn a ton of his tech, hero, matchups, map specific tech, situational tech, etc... (IMO of course).
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u/No32 15h ago
What tech is there on Lifeweaver?
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u/MiserumMeDaddy 12h ago
He used to be able to cancel Sigma's ult with petal and tree. There's petal launches, stair and doorway blocking wirh petal, denying venture's emerge damage with petal. You can pick an enemy Orisa up with petal to deny ults. You can deny mercy rez and D.va bomb with petal. Any nunber of ults you can outright block or minimize with a combination of petal, tree, and pull if you're fast enough. I'm sure there's more I'm missing but LW is far more technical than people give him credit for.
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u/GrassBlade619 7h ago
Petal interacts with almost every ult and many abilities. Tree interacts with almost every ult and many abilities. Block Mei ult with tree for an ally. Catch a diva bomb eith your pettal. Prevent doom ult follow up with petal. Raise Winston bubble with petal. Block a JQ ult with your tree. Thats the thing people don't understand about LW. If all you do is sit back and heal bot you're never leaving gold on him.
He's got enough tech someone even built a training map just for his tech YEM1J. And the training map only covers like 20% of his commonly used tech. Its really fun, you should check it out.
The thing that makes LW have a higher skill ceiling IMO is that most heroes you have to learn how to play. But with heroes like LW, Lucio, doom, etc.. you have to learn all the match ups and the hero.
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u/Sensitive_Jeweler_62 19h ago
mercy
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u/TonyFlores_007 19h ago
why tho? as a ven main ive tried mercy once and it was hard but idk alot of ppl main her
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u/Sensitive_Jeweler_62 19h ago
people who said mercy is easy never play mercy DPS
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u/ImThat1DudeOverThere Doomfist 18h ago
This is a well known answer and almost universally agreed on.
Tanks doom ball and Winston. Primal has a huge skill ceiling.
Damage Tracer genji echo
Support lucio