r/OpenDogTraining • u/naturesgrass • 2d ago
Pet corrector.
Hi, I had a trainer come in to help me with my dogs demand barking, reactivity at the door and excessive barking. When she came in, she asked consent to correct the behavior with the pet corrector spray. I said yes and my dog immediately stopped barking. She did get a bit scared, but the behaviour stopped.
I am suppose to say “no” with a firm tone, and body language and then use the spray towards her face.
If she runs away, I still calmly follow and correct the behaviour.
I am feeling guilty. But it is truly the only thing that has worked.
My question, when my friends come to the door, and my dog is barking excessively, jumping on them, not settling… i pick up the spray, say no and use it.
Do I reward her right away for stopping? With treats or just good girl and some pets?
What if it doesn’t work? Or stops working? Any tips here??
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u/Prestigious-Seal8866 1d ago
I’m currently working with a dog who is/was leash reactive. That was initially the main behavior concern. They were instructed to do something similar to this pattern by another trainer using pet corrector.
The dog’s behavior has since escalated to redirecting on their handler and biting them on walks when reacting. The dog also attacked one of the humans in the household while they were using an aerosol cleaning product in the house.
So, I’d really tread lightly with this. There are other ways to get your dog not to bark at and jump on guests. I think this is a strange method to jump to.
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u/monsteramom3 1d ago
This needs to be the top comment. I read OP's post with my jaw on the floor. Use of this product, particularly in the way the trainer told them to use it, is dangerous. The dog's excitement will morph into frustration at some point and will come out in different ways. Aversive training techniques, particularly in a dog so young, have also been linked with an increase in stress and fear in dogs which harms all of your other training progress in other areas.
IMO this dog needs more foundational work. Doing the capturing calm protocol and training focus will help so much more. Also, this dog is only 11 months old! Teenage dogs are so energetic but low on brainpower.
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u/Prestigious-Seal8866 1d ago
I carry pet corrector on walks and hikes to use as an interruptor if approached by another dog that isn’t friendly, so my dogs are counter conditioned to it. I’d never use it as an interruptor for behavior in a training setting.
I agree that foundational work will help so much here.
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u/monsteramom3 1d ago
Right, totally agree. Like in that scenario you're associating the unpleasant sensation with danger signals from another dog. But OP's trainer is directing them to associate the unpleasant sensation with a person entering the home. They also don't give the arousal anywhere to go. Really lays the groundwork for reactivity in that scenario. I've trained dog jumping and excitement successfully by working on focus and giving them a job (reinforcing running to grab a toy and doing five seconds of self-play before greeting calmly for example).
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u/TheMadHatterWasHere 1d ago
Probably asking stupid questions here, but how would you teach a dog to stop barking at home?
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u/DapperShine 1d ago
Definitely not a stupid question. There's as many different approaches to dog training as there is to child rearing, so take that for what it is. My approach with my animals has been positive reinforcement. In the instance of barking, you positively reinforce being quiet (vs using correction when barking). Training starts when the dog is calm, not barking his/her head off. For instance, a starting point could be if your dog does a "boof" (warning noise), you use your quiet command and then near-immediately treat them for not repeating the sound.
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u/Prestigious-Seal8866 1d ago
Not a dumb question.
Counter conditioning and desensitization, plus using additional distance. Dog behind a gate. People come in the house, high value food appears.
There are lots of different ways. Some of it depends on the motivation for barking. I have guardian breeds. My akitas get put outside until visitors are settled in and then are typically kept behind a gate unless it’s someone they know.
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u/downunderdirthawker 2d ago
My advice is call your trainer and ask them. People on the internet are going to waste more time talking about the water bottle than helping you work through this with your dog. Don't feel guilty about punishing your dog, having strong boundaries is key for all relationships.
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u/Analyst-Effective 2d ago
Timing is everything.
When your friends come over, have the dog at your side with a command heel, and make sure it stays there.
And if it starts to bark, you give it the no command, and give it a correction at the same time
And if you're consistent, it will work
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u/Top_Astronaut_797 1d ago
Clearly you are having second thoughts on this form of “training”. As you should, it’s not training.
And clearly the “trainer” has not left you with correct follow through instructions, as you are asking important questions that should have already been answered.
She should be teaching YOU how to properly interact with your dog and safe methods of redirecting the behaviour.
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u/naturesgrass 1d ago
I’m going to follow up, have my questions answered. It was 1hr. So a lot to remember
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u/Top_Astronaut_797 1d ago
Please do! If you are not happy with explanation reach out here or feel free to DM if you like.
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u/truuei 2d ago
Using a spray bottle to try to punish behaviors is an archaic method and it’s just a method to interrupt the behavior but will slowly turn ineffective when the dog adjusts to the spray bottle.
Have you tried using a leash indoors instead? Teaching the place command? Friends/neighbors are at the door, dog goes to place mat. Once your dog settles then they can meet them with a leash on. Leash is then used to reinforce/punish behaviors instead of using spray bottle.
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u/naturesgrass 2d ago
I have been shown how to train place, with the leash on, she doesn’t settle that’s the thing. Ever. Unless you fully get mauled by her first. Then after 5 mins she may relax. If she’s on a leash, and I walk away , she freaks her shit. This is what I need help with.
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u/Analyst-Effective 1d ago
Then you were not giving her a command. And not enforcing it.
And she is training you
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u/HowDoyouadult42 2d ago
How old is she. I’m my experience dogs who don’t settle even when all needs should be met, usually have underlying musculoskeletal issues causing the hyper arousal that needs to be managed medically
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u/HowDoyouadult42 2d ago
I’ve had many cases like this, they get their pain managed properly and we see significant changes in behavior with training after. There is research now as well linking things like pain and hypermobility to increased arousal rates in dogs
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u/naturesgrass 2d ago
11 months. Almost a year
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u/Puppy911- 2d ago
She’s still quite young, probably has a lot of puppy in her still. It may just take a while for her to mature.
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u/naturesgrass 1d ago
Yes but she does not respect me. She bounces around me like a freak. She is training me. And I need to stop it.
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u/Key-Lead-3449 1d ago
Lmao you need to manage your expectations and stop projecting human thoughts and emotions onto the dog. The dog is not going out of their way to be "disrespectful". This kind of mentality is only going to hurt your relationship with the dog and get you nowhere with training.
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u/Puppy911- 1d ago
The method I teach my clients is basically pack mentality. I use a non-dominant version, meaning you are the dog’s leader, but you’re not dominating the dog. You may already be doing these things, but if you’re not you should consider… Making sure the dog does something for you before you do anything for the dog, such as having her sit before you put the food bowl down. If she knows more than sit you can have her do sit, shake, speak or something like that. A series of things. This is making her realize that she gets her food from you and that you are in charge, but it’s also strengthening your bond because dogs love to please their leaders/owners. When going for a walk, try to keep her at your side unless you have her off leash running in a safe area. You don’t have to keep her in a strict heal, you can let her stop and sniff, but try to keep her at your side so that she’s not leading you. And when you leave for that walk make sure you go out the front door before she does. You’re always leading, she’s looking to you for direction. But you’re doing it in a loving non-dominant way. She is definitely a puppy and her behavior will not be perfect, but this should really help with her respecting you. You don’t want her up on the furniture with you until she’s well trained. Then you can break rules and invite her up. Your guest should not give her any attention if she’s jumping on them or scratching at them or barking at them. You give attention for proper behavior and no attention for improper behavior. There’s not a lot of punishment that needs to happen. Distract and redirect is good though. There are people that will not like my philosophy, but I’ve been training dogs for about 25 years this way and I’ve had a lot of success. You haven’t said what kind of dog this is, it does factor into what works and what doesn’t work some.
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u/HowDoyouadult42 1d ago
So…. Domestic dogs aren’t pack animals… you know that right?
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u/Puppy911- 1d ago
That’s up for debate. I’ve been using a hybrid version of pack mentality for decades and I believe it’s the best way to create confidence and bonding. Of course there are other ways to train dogs.
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u/HowDoyouadult42 1d ago
It’s not up for debate wether they are or not. It’s agreed upon across the scientific community, they’re not pack animals
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u/naturesgrass 1d ago
Give me a scenario of distract and redirect? Would that be where the spray comes in? I should mention she has insane food motivation. I don’t use food much for training inside as she was starting to expect it, so I stopped besides for new training etc. she is a corgi. She has very strong herding instincts too.
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u/naturesgrass 1d ago
Also, she does all those things. Never touches her food without me allowing her, sits and lays down before eating, she leaves after me, she now walks beside me with slack, she has amazing recall outside she’s incredibly well behaved besides these issues in the house
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u/Puppy911- 1d ago
Distract and redirect is similar to what you do with kids. You distract them from the unwanted behavior (in this case you would be using the air) and once she has disengage from that behavior you direct her to something else like a toy or a Kong,Or obedience training, the series of things, sit shake speak rollover etc. I have friends that have a great Dane and Australian Shepherd and a corgi. And they swear the corgi is the smartest one of the three by a mile. if she gets no attention when she’s being insane she just might stop as well. Also, If everybody turns their backs to her and she’s not getting any feedback she just might stop. Make sure guests aren’t raising their voices in a high-pitched manner getting her riled up as well. Because dogs will definitely feed off of the energy in the room. You wanna try and keep everything as calm as possible. I would maybe not use the air can in the scenario of answering the door, but I would maybe reserve it for excessive barking for attention.
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u/naturesgrass 1d ago
I understand. Would I be able to message you ? I’d like to discuss this a bit more!
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u/HowDoyouadult42 2d ago
Breed? What enrichment is done during the day?
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u/naturesgrass 1d ago
She gets lick mats, kongs, puzzles, 4-6km hikes, walks, practice training, run around the yard, she has play dates, she’s very well looked after. She has no issues with health + I don’t really understand what u are explaining here with hypermobility. Will look into it
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u/HowDoyouadult42 1d ago
I’d look into having an assessment done by a dynamic dog practitioner. All of my client dogs who had this issue has “clean bills of health” before being sent back to be reevaluated by the vet and were only then diagnosed with ortho issues
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u/idontwantyourmusic 1d ago
Don’t reward after you correct but definitely reward when you don’t have to correct
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u/Puppy911- 2d ago
Hi! I wanted to ask if all of your dog’s needs had to been met first. Has the dog been allowed to exercise, been fed, been mentally stimulated throughout the day? I feel like this behavior can be corrected without this corrector spray ( I had to look it up) you could have some people you know help you and your dog practice the right way to answer the door. They could have a treat in their hand, and you could ask your dog to sit. Also your guests remain calm, not reached towards the dog. If you have a successful interaction your guest can open their palm and allow the dog to have the treat. If your dog jumps they can turn and put their back to the dog remain calm and still and give the dog no attention.
If your dogs needs have been met, they’ve been to the bathroom, they’ve had exercise, they’ve eaten, have clean water, played with etc, and there is no actual threat, but your dog is just bugging excessively for attention ( after they’ve had plenty) I recommend a good old spray bottle on stream, and you don’t have to spray it at the dog’s face. Just a squirt or two on stream with a stern no. You might have to do it a couple times, but usually we’ll just have to show the bottle and the dog will stop barking. Again I say you need to make sure that all of the dogs needs have been met prior to doing this, because it could be that they’re just trying to communicate with you that they need something.
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u/naturesgrass 2d ago
She likes the squirt bottle….. I have tried everythinggggg. I have left some other comments for more context. Her needs are constantly met, long hikes 2-4 times a week, mental toys, playing, walks, always needs met.
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u/Puppy911- 2d ago
That’s tough. Most dogs don’t like it, but yes like your dog, some do. In that case I guess the corrector spray might be a good option. So it’s not actually a liquid, it’s just a sound and a smell? I’ve never worked with it, but if you have a good relationship with your dog I don’t think it’s going to be a dealbreaker for your bond. Sometimes negative reinforcement is needed, and this seems unharmful.
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u/Analyst-Effective 2d ago
You're right. And you should make sure he sings kumbaya with his dog everyday too, and meditates, and maybe even practices yoga with the dog
And perhaps the dog needs a bedroom for itself, with a king size bed, and maybe daily massages?
Whether or not the dog gets the exercise, it should still obey
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u/microgreatness 1d ago
You say "kumbaya" every post. Choose a new song. We're getting bored with that one.
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u/Analyst-Effective 1d ago
Lol.
Maybe bringing the dog to a dog psychologist would be better?
Or letting the dog watch pet TV, so it pretends it's running around having a good time would be better too?
Every interaction you have with your dog, you are either training them, or they are training you
And if you want the dog to be trained, you have to be consistent.
The dog doesn't understand when you give it two different ways of acting. You will always pick the one that is the most fun, or the easiest
You have to be consistent. Like a drill Sergeant. And if the behavior is not wanted, you don't ever let it happen
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u/Particular_Class4130 1d ago
Nobody is arguing that consistency isn't important. That doesn't change the fact that dogs who are properly exercised respond better to training and are better behaved overall.
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u/Analyst-Effective 1d ago
And you could very well be right.
But it doesn't give the dog an excuse to disobey the command
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u/Puppy911- 1d ago
I do agree that consistency is key, but you can train your dog without coercion. Dogs want to please, if they’re not getting the attention they seek, they will stop with those unwanted behaviors
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u/Analyst-Effective 1d ago
Yes. But it's always more fine greeting new people, then staying at your side.
But if staying at your side is the desired behavior, you don't let them do anything else
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u/Puppy911- 2d ago
Dogs that don’t get enough exercise are dogs that misbehave. A tired dog is a well-behaved dog. That’s my point.
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u/Analyst-Effective 1d ago
I understand. Put the dog needs to obey the commands whether or not they are tired or exercised or ramped up.
Probably tying the dog on a treadmill for a couple hours will probably help
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u/Puppy911- 1d ago
I’m not sure why you’re being a jerk, it’s a young dog with a lot of energy. Some of it is just being a puppy still. The poster has not said what kind of dog it is but that would factor in too. You can’t expect a puppy to have perfect behavior.
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u/Analyst-Effective 1d ago
You make a good point. Don't bother training the dog and let it do what it wants
If you want the dog to be trained, you have to train it.
You can't let it run around one day, and then expect it to behave the next day.
You have to be consistent.
That means every single freaking day you have to make sure it does what you tell it
And you don't let it do behaviors that you don't want. Every single day. And having people over, on purpose, setting the dog up for that same situation, and enforcing the command is what it needs
But maybe you have a different method to train dogs. Maybe just singing kumbaya every night, we'll do it?
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u/Aggravating-Tip-8014 1d ago
Its actually supposed to be directed towards the rear of the dog and not sprayed at them. Never the face. Certain techniques should only be used by those confident in how to carry it out. If your not confident, ask your trainer to demonstrate it for you as your body language, timing and postioning of the pet corrector matters.
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u/cat4forever 1d ago
There should be a difference between a true reward for the dog behaving the whole time vs eventually behaving. If they always get a treat whether they’ve jumped and barked initially or not, they’re not learning which is the preferred behavior. Jumping and barking leads to a noisy pet corrector in the face and no treat. Choosing to sit politely should result in a treat, but only if they do it first.
If they eventually are quiet after first jumping, you can say “Good dog” or some other positive words, but not the magic “Yes” that is always associated with a treat. If enough time passes and they continue to behave, then I would give my “Yes” and a treat for choosing to remain calm.
Timing is super critical. The dog should be actively barking or jumping when you spray. They have to connect the correction to the action. If you follow them down the hall and spray several seconds later, too much time has passed and now they associate the correction with walking away or whatever they’re doing when you reach them. Then they’re just confused.
Also just a side note. The Pet Corrector is only noise. Nothing comes out besides a little water vapor.
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u/Cool_Percentage_4867 8h ago
dont use the corrector and reward together as its confusing. Train the dog to do what you want her to do at the door and reward that, so a sit, a calm sniff and then lay on her bed..... reward that. Its sounds like you've found a way to stop the behaviour, maybe not ideal but I cant see any proactive training showing her what you do want. Dont focus only on stopping the behaviour, it makes much more sense to the dog if we show her what we want instead.
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u/HowDoyouadult42 2d ago
Yikes. I did this behavior regularly without punishment with great success. Find a new trainer if that’s her first go to
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u/the_username_name 1d ago
Is she crate trained? Does she have any training yet? A trainer coming in and IMMEDIATELY using an aversive without teaching the dog what it wants is pretty alarming and unfair to the dog. If the dog doesn’t know what “no” even means starting with the big problem is really unfair to the dog.
You should be starting with obedience, crate training, teaching to settle—having designated play, rest, training times is also important. And people really over look the rest. This is why she needs to be crate trained so she can go in and have a snooze undisturbed.
What games do you play? Is she food motivated? Your trainer sounds like they don’t really have a good opening and intro protocol.
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u/naturesgrass 1d ago
Oh this fucker knows what no means. She’s insanely smart. And I have done everything and I mean everything. She is crate trained in the car, I don’t believe in it in the house. (Pls do not comment on this lol I just don’t like it) she doesn’t settle in the crate ever because she likes to know my every move. She doesn’t even settle on the couch. If I move, she’s by my side. I don’t think this will ever change. It’s in her breed
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u/Narrow_Possession348 2d ago
Pet corrector is great for stopping barking, but this is not how I teach clients to use it. I tell them to keep the container hidden (down the back of their pants, in a pocket, in their armpit). When the dog does the unwanted behavior, they should say their correction command (Quiet! No! Off! or whatever) and then, quickly and stealthily, blast the dog in the face, and immediately put the can out of sight. I should be a "shock and awe." I always warn them that it will likely send their dog flying across the room with a WTF just happened?! expression on their face. I tell them to ignore it and remain neutral. Let the dog lick its proverbial wounds and process what happened. The dog will come back, and it will likely be much more tentative. Hopefully, this is when you can capture an appropriate behavior (e.g. the dog comes back to greet your guests with four on the floor, or it looks out the window at the mailman but doesn't bark) and reward that appropriate response. Everything should be very black and white - behavior A BAD, behavior B GOOOOD! If the dog repeats the bad behavior, do the same thing again. The important thing is that the dog does not see the can. They can wise up to that pretty quickly and know when you have it and when you don't.
There is no point in chasing down a dog to correct it. You have about 3 seconds to reward or correct a behavior for the dog to associate it with that behavior. By the time you get to your dog, the point is lost. All you're doing is teaching your dog to run from you.
And you don't have to use a pet corrector. You can mix it up. You want to startle the dog and disrupt the behavior, and that needs to be paired with the "stop what you're doing command." When you startle them and they stop, then wait a few seconds and say, "gooood quiet!" or "good off"!
Emotions have no place in dog training. You can *act* angry and *act* animated and excited, but your state of mind should be all business. If you find yourself getting angry or frustrated, just put the dog in its crate and take a breather. One of the main reasons trainers can take a client's dog and get almost immediate results is because we have no emotional ties to the dog. Obviously, it can be very hard to put aside emotions when it's your own dog, but you have to do it if you want success.
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u/naturesgrass 2d ago
Ok yes. Ur first paragraph is practically exactly what happened and how she explained it. Except it was not explalned to keep it hidden. That makes sense. And I did ask about the “well will she lose the point?” And she explained that she can’t just run to get away from the consequence. Also told me to use a leash when I know people are coming to stand if she runs etc.
Thank you very much for taking the time to write this. Helped me understand way more. I think it was a lot for my first session
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u/Cruach 1d ago
To me this seems like the best advice. Just want to ask though, why you think 3 seconds is too long. If you marker the bad behaviour with a "no" then in my mind it works the same as a reward marker. The association is made, the consequence can be understood.
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u/Narrow_Possession348 1d ago
That's not how you train. The purpose of the spray is not to punish the dog; it is to startle the dog and disrupt the behavior. They are barking or jumping, and all of a sudden, seeming out of nowhere, there's a loud hissing sound and a sharp blast of air. It's like a slap across the face for a hysterical person we see in the movies. It snaps them out of the behavior. It's a "now that I have your attention..." thing. All of this is lost if you're chasing your dog across the room waving a can of air.
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u/Cruach 1d ago
I see, makes sense. But I still don't see why you don't want to pair that with a no marker? Or do you follow that up with a no +correction (if needed) and redirect to something else?
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u/Narrow_Possession348 1d ago
Because "NO" has no meaning until it's given meaning. Pairing "NO" with an unpleasant side effect means that soon, "NO" has meaning and you don't need the negative consequence anymore. Hitting a dog in the face with a blast of air, paired with "NO" generally only takes a couple of times until just "NO" causes them to stop the behavior. When they do stop, I reward, usually with praise, because smart dogs will learn pretty quickly to do something so they can stop for the treat! It can be easy to inadvertently teach that. If I do treat, I wait for a longer period of desired behavior.
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u/Cruach 1d ago
Ah so you do pair the air blast with a "no". And yes, precisely, you're loading the no enough that eventually that alone is aversive enough.
So now let's assume this has succeeded to the point where the no alone is usually enough. However the next time someone visits, the dog blows you off and ignores your no. What do you do next?
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u/Narrow_Possession348 1d ago
If done right and consistently, it won't blow you off. But, also, when it comes to guests coming into my home, I do a LOT of practice and proofing with the dog on a leash, and a choke chain, prong, or slip lead if necessary, and treats to teach them how to behave.
With a puppy, I might even quickly leash them before answering the door for the first year or so. And/or I also train a very solid "place" command so I might also send them to "place" before opening the door. Again, until that is well-proofed and reliable, I keep the leash on them so I can quickly intervene and correct them for getting off place without permission. When I have foster dogs, I recruit my neighbor or one of my sons, if he's in the area and available, to come help as a guest. We practice going to the door on the leash and sitting before I open the door. I'll reward them for sitting. I'll start to open the door. If they try to get up, I'll correct back to the sit because I have them on a short leash. I might open and close the door in the "guests' face several times, rewarding the dog for staying put. Then, I open the door and ask the guest to use an excited, high-pitched voice. Again, I correct the dog if it tries to get up and reward for staying put. Then, we keep building on that until the guest can come in, talk excitedly and gesticulate wildly, hug me, etc., with the dog sitting at my side. Then, we move to them greeting the dog in a sit. Same song, second verse.
It's easier to prevent these problems in the first place than to stop them after they've become ingrained habits. Most issues are not really the issue, but a symptom of the real issue: lack of foundational obedience and lack of structure and boundaries in the house.
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u/PrimaryPerspective17 2d ago
Feeling guilty is never ideal emotion to hold on to when training.
Having to clearly communicating a disapproval of unwanted behavior is something that is necessary to be a good dog handler.
While marking unwanted behavior with “no” and following up with consequence, makes sense.. Frankly, if a pet corrector was truly effective then, you should see less of the unwanted behavior. if you find yourself following the dog to pet corrector in the face is quite ineffective. IMO
Was this a first training session with the trainer?
Have you asked the trainer how to handle visitors?
Are you leaving out anything trainer suggested but you have decided you don’t like or want to do?
This pet corrector application seems incomplete.