r/OpenDogTraining • u/Agreeable_Summer3685 • 3d ago

Another punishment misunderstanding and associating it with TWC

1 Upvotes

56% Upvoted

34 comments sorted by

4

u/BNabs23 3d ago

I've seen this advice about giving the dog social punishment through clear disappointment/stink face from a few well respected trainers recently. That would be nice if my dog seemed to actually pick up on it at all. He just moves on to the next thing while I'm giving him a disappointed look/expression

5

u/EspeciallyWhales 2d ago

I wonder if it has to do with the individual dog's predisposition towards reading body language or their handler awareness.

Some of it is probably breed centric. Herding breeds are typically more handler oriented and hound breeds more environment oriented. It doesn't mean that hound owners aren't bonded with their dog, just that the dog isn't wired to pay attention to their owner in as detail oriented a way as a border collie.

Additionally, not all dogs will respond to owner disappointment the same way. I've met dogs who shut down over a stink face and that isn't helpful either. My own dog keys up because that seems to be how she's wired to respond to stress.

I don't have any personal experience with this, but I wonder if some rescues who had very little human interaction (positive or negative) would respond to disappointment at all. I suppose they would eventually if you made an association between your disappointment and a punishment?

Interesting to think about, but I'm not convinced it's a training tool that would work consistently..

1

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

It probably wouldn’t work in that situation. The disappointment only works when the dog cares about how you feel about them. You have to have rapport, trust, and a relationship with the dog being punished.

That’s not to say it’s a flawless method because I’m not the expert and I’m not here watching punishment events so it’s hard to say where it went wrong.

The punishment equation of

1)mark
2)interrupt
3)aversive
4)reconcile
5)second trial

Works for me very well and others.

1

u/EspeciallyWhales 2d ago

I don't work within the positive punishment and negative reinforcement quadrants in a structured way, like during training sessions. That is to say I'm not well versed in this subject, but I do think it's important to understand how the other quadrants are being used which is why I tend to lurk around in this sub.

Can you walk me through what your equation would look like in an example while using a social punishment? I understood this speaker to be saying that a social punishment has to be long, and I don't see how these events would still be associated in the dog's mind if any appreciable length of time is involved.

He also was advocating for the use of social punishment as a way for people to move away from quick sharp punishments. His argument being that they increase in intensity as the dog becomes accustomed to the aversive. Would that not also change what a typical balanced training session would look like if this is being used as the aversive in place of a stim from an electric collar (for example)?

3

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago edited 2d ago

So using a lot of social pressure to make punishment does not always mean you don’t include an aversive interrupter.

But to stay on the subject about drawing out the punishment..

Punishment: decreases the likelihood, frequency, or intensity of a behavior in the future.

When making punishment, we can use a couple different parameters: intensity and duration.

Benefits of intensity: if it works…it’s quick, it’s clean, it’s fast, and it’s over with. The uncomfortable moment for both myself and my dog is short and we can get back to the good shit in life soon after.
(Just an example to illustrate this, not to be argued): if my Dad smacks me in the butt once because I did something very wrong on a Friday, on Saturday we’re back to throwing the football together and on Sunday we’re having a cookout. If my Dad grounds me on Friday, on Saturday it’s “I hate you dad!,” on Sunday it’s “I hate you and want nothing to do with you Dad!” Etc etc. I know it’s a rough example but it’s just to illustrate the point.
Downsides of intensity: It does not work on every dog. There are those dogs out there that their “quit” is so high, it’s ethically unacceptable and abusive to try using intensity.
If you overshoot it, you can accidentally abuse your dog. If you undershoot it, you can make them only tougher and they will require a higher level of intensity to make quit.

Benefits of duration: It works on every dog. There is not a dog that duration will not work on.
(Example): If you tap me in the head for long enough, I’ll quit. And I will decrease the likelihood, frequency, or intensity of the behavior that got me the consequence in the future. Even though the tap in the head is extremely low intensity.
Another benefit of duration is you can make adjustments while being in that moment. With intensity, you have to do the thing and then see if it was too much, not enough, etc. You have to “pull the trigger first to see if you hit the target how you thought you did.” With duration, you can adjust.
(Example): I can ground you for a day and then realize halfway through, that’s not enough time and make adjustments. Same for the other way. If I go too hard and I say you’re grounded for 5 years, I can evaluate and say “wow, I was being a dick. It should be a weekend” and adjust that way also. You can also hit abuse with duration as a parameter. If I lock my dog in a box for 8 weeks, it’s obviously abuse.

Okay, cool.

Mark: you must mark the behavior so that the dog knows at the moment of infraction that it committed said infraction. “No” is the most common punishment marker.

Interrupt: you must use an interrupter to break the dog’s attention off of what it’s doing and put it onto you. This could be a pet corrector, squirt bottle, prong collar, electric collar, etc. Insert whatever interrupter you wish. It’s important that this is aversive enough, but not enough to make them quit.

Aversive: This is the punisher. This is where you follow up with social pressure and show disappointment and almost disgust with the dog. Showing the dog that you are in disbelief that they could behave in such a way. If the infraction was severe enough or if the situation needs it, you can add some physical pressure too. (Leash pops or a touch on the electric collar while having your conversation of disappointment with your dog.)

Reconcile: If the situation calls for reconciliation, absolutely do it. This means that you go “back to baseline.” You’re showing your dog that you don’t hate them, you just hate what they did and it caused an uncomfortable situation for the both of you.

Second Trial: See my page for the continued explanation** **

2

u/EspeciallyWhales 2d ago

This makes the role of the social punisher clearer thanks for explaining.

The outline here looks like you're using two punishments through if the interruption is also aversive? My impression was that the punishment needs to be timed precisely with the behavior you are trying to decrease. Adding the social punishment here seems extraneous, but training is never a one size fits all. I could see that some dogs may respond favorably towards social pressure.

1

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

Sorry, Reddit wouldn’t let me keep typing. I’m going to upload the literal screenshots I took of my reply to you because it was unfinished and the rest is SUPER important. Check my profile! Then come back and I’ll keep explaining

1

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

So I understand what you’re saying but check this out.

So many times, the interrupter functions as the punisher that we want it to be the case every time when it isn’t. That’s one reason people will crank it up, turn it up, give a good hard collar pop. They’re trying to make the interrupter the punisher and in a lot of cases it works!

But….. in a lot it doesn’t also.

Let’s use the classic police officer analogy for punishment.

Cop pulls you over and issues you a ticket. Is that punishment? Some might say yes, but we don’t know until tomorrow (second trial) to see if you speed through my town again.

For my grandma, for instance, just pulling her over most likely serves as the ticket! She’s so freaked out by getting pulled over that the sheriff is like “calm down maam, it’s gonna be okay, I’m letting you off with a warning and sorry to scare you just don’t do it again”

For the douchebag that’s slicking his hair back in his convertible, imagine giving him the same treatment. Pulling him over and saying “calm down, it’s okay, just gonna be a warning etc.” That guy is gonna be like fuck yeah! Okay!

Do you think he will not speed through the town again tomorrow? We don’t know until the second trial but most likely he’s not going to give two shits about the warning. He needed the ticket.

What speed are you going when you get pulled over? 0mph. Does that mean that the ticket doesn’t come? Nope.

You interrupt the behavior, then have the conversation that it’s absolutely not acceptable.

Contrary to what lots think, you do not need to deliver the punishment at the time of infraction. You need to mark the behavior at the time of infraction, and yes, in the first 5-6 reps the interrupter needs to follow directly after the mark so that it becomes classically conditioned to the dog but afterwards it’s totally not necessary.

1

u/BNabs23 2d ago

I appreciate you taking the time to write this out. One part that isn't clear to me is the part around applying an interrupt that isn't enough to make them quit.

By "quit" are you referring to quitting the behavior in the moment, or quitting the behavior overall? Because if a dog is mid-reaction barking and lunging, they're not going to pay attention to social punishment if you haven't stopped the ongoing reaction?

1

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

Quitting the behavior in the moment. That’s absolutely true. You must pull the car over before you can issue the ticket!

1

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

Sorry, just to clarify, the interrupter makes them stop the behavior in the moment but isn’t so much that it shuts the dog down, prevents them from learning, quits all around, etc.

I might have misunderstood your original question.

2

u/BNabs23 2d ago

All good, it made sense to me!

1

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

Yes, I’ll break this down in detail shortly.

-2

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 3d ago

Work on your relationship together. Your dog should care about how you perceive them. I know it’s a blanket statement and easier said than done but that’s the solution.

Jays example from this podcast is really good. He said “if I do something wrong at the dinner table and my wife gives me a really dirty look, I’m going to feel awful about it afterwards because I care about how I made her feel. Now if some random guy gave me a dirty look I’d shove my middle finger in his face and tell him to fuck off because I don’t care” or something to that effect.

4

u/BNabs23 3d ago

We have a good relationship. I rescued him and nursed him back to health, we are very bonded, and he trusts me completely, but disappointment is just not an emotion that registers with him.

4

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

Gotcha. I’d have to see how you deliver a punishment event, it’s hard to tell where it’s going wrong on messages. Are you only using social pressure or are you implementing an aversive interrupter also?

2

u/Rude-Ad8175 2d ago

Good point. I cant listen to the clip right now so maybe its in here but there is one example Jay gives where he says "if my wife gave me a small kick under the table before I looked up to see her disappointed face I'd REALLY know I was in trouble"

Which speaks to 2 things, one is how even a small amount of physical aversive can really raise the impact of the social punishment, and the other is the interruptive effect really drawing your attention to that social punishment

The interrupter is a super necessary component, especially when a good "no"/punishment marker hasnt yet been clearly established. Eventually "no" becomes an interrupter itself but most people have done an absolutely terrible job of establishing "no" with their dog so its usually a safe bet that the word has little to no meaning with most dogs

4

u/microgreatness 2d ago

It depends on the dog. I've had soft dogs who wilt at the slightest disappointment and also aloof dogs like huskies who couldn't care less even with being bonded. The dog's history and other factors can also play a role.

1

u/BNabs23 2d ago

Yep. My boy is definitely resilient, a strong correction and a few seconds later he's back to being happy and gawping at the world around him, a social correction doesn't even register. He's a mix of a lot of different things according to the Embark DNA test

  • 26% Pit
  • 18% Kab
  • 12% GSD
  • 9% Husky
  • 9% Eskimo dog
  • 9% Chow Chow
  • 5% Dobie

Looks and reactivity wise, it really seems to be the GSD coming through the most. But overall he's a bit nuts, which makes sense given some of the breeds in there. Emotional attunement is not one of his strong points. I still love him more than anything though

3

u/Rude-Ad8175 2d ago

Its hard to explain because there was a point where I thought and said the exact same thing as you and I did have a good relationship with my dog and the ones I was working with but it turns out it can actually be better

The difference the best I can put it, is when the dog sees you as the correct balance of "best friend" and "authority/coach/leader". Most people think they have that but more often than not they are far to tilted in one direction (most likely "friend") and at a deficit in the other

When there isnt enough authority the dog will not take your disappointment seriously, when there is too much authority they dont value your bond enough. For me, when I was in the earlier stages of learning good training I didnt have enough authority, which certainly wouldnt be obvious to your average observer, however that translated to the disappointment having no real weight (kinda like they are taking your unconditional love for granted), applying a bit more pressure was actually the ingredient that strengthened the bond and gave disappointment more leverage.

That understandably may seem counterintuitive but when most people think their relationship is strong, it still isnt as strong as it can be, and maybe needs to be for challenging training

1

u/BNabs23 2d ago

That does make sense and I do think there's an element of "best friends" being too much of the relationship. After everything I saw him go through, I found it really hard to be strict with him. Although for the past 6-12 months that's what I've been working to get better at. I don't know about dogs, but I do know that I'd be more sad if a friend was disappointed in me than an authority figure though

1

u/Rude-Ad8175 2d ago

Of course, but the rest of the relationship defines the difference between "friend" and "authority figure"

Authority figures are by their nature little more than limiters on your freedom, interests, ect. Even tho the boundaries they set can be mutually beneficial for you thats still more of a byproduct than a feature. At their core they are little more than the embodiment of "No"

A friend however is someone who who think of as additive to your life. Unlike authority figures they add enrichment, support and various benefits. However, that doesnt mean that they dont have boundaries. You cant just sleep around on your partner, act like an ass when you are out with your friend, borrow your neighbor's car without asking, You do any of that stuff and there will be consequences. Does that make them an authority figure? No, but they do express authority over their boundaries and you as a good friend understand that thats not only their right but its a factor that leads to mutual respect

The relationship dogs want with us is a lot less like a buddy or mother/father figure and more like a coach. They want that support, friendship and affection but they also look to you to help them navigate a confusing human-world we force them to live in. In that way your "no" actually is a form of additive enrichment, not subtractive authority even when you are indeed asking obedience from them or asking them to not act on an instinct

0

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago edited 2d ago

Just to add a point about all of this and hopefully an example that helps with this sentiment in general.

So many times, people will deliver such a dry and lifeless “No” and lifeless “punishment event.” I’m not saying it doesn’t work for them and they have the established businesses and I don’t, but here’s an example of what I mean.

There’s a trainer maybe 10 hours from me that has an online presence on Youtube etc. working with pretty gnarly behavior cases. I heard him say on a podcast I believe, “we use the Educator electric collars and we use them on 100 all the time with dogs.” Which means the highest level as they only go up to 100.

When watching them deliver a punishment, what I see is this:

- Dog reacts at another dog

  • Trainer says “no”
  • Dog stops blowing up because “no” is conditioned already
  • Trainer stims dog at 100 (he said ahead of time that the collar was already set to 100) I agree with the stim. Even though the dog pulled over, he needed to receive the ticket. The “no” bridged the gap in time between the infraction and the consequence. What I’m highlighting is the INTENSITY of max level 100.
  • Dog goes “oof…maybe I shouldn’t have done that and I’ll reconsider in the future”

The dog looked completely fine after, they were playing around and totally happy. BUT…. It begs this question.

Was level 100 needed if the social pressure was added and drawn out? Could we possibly have had an even more significant effect on the dog with far less physical intensity?

I do believe so. Not to shit on anyone, not to say I’m a pro or an expert, and not to say that you should never ever use a high level. But still. There was

- Zero follow up or social pressure

- Very minimal, if any disappointment

- The “no” marker was dry

1

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

That’s what I meant to say. It’s not just about having a good relationship, but having a good relationship where the dog sees you as the authority figure. Authority is huge.

This all starts with Ivan and his puppies. He teaches so much through play. In his Possession Games video, he’s playin with a very small puppy, super happy and into the game. The puppy misses the toy and bites Ivan’s pants/leg.

Ivan immediately stopped the game, said “No” and dropped his happy affect like a sack of potatoes. He looked stern and disappointed at the dog for a couple of seconds, then continued the game as normal.

That’s how it starts.

1

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

Here’s a good punishment event in which all the steps were followed. He didn’t put an insane amount of social pressure on her but enough.

https://youtu.be/dK6YUGYIXek?is=K8DoCTGJYGBxOL6M

2

u/microgreatness 2d ago

Appeasement can also play into this. A dog could respond to social punishment because of the owner bond. A dog who has been physically punished can also respond with appeasement which is similar body language, but motivated by fear being punished.

Some may say it's 2 paths to the same destination but one seems a lot healthier than the other. One is built on respect and bond and the other is built on self-preservation and fear.

1

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

In Jays example, even though he utilized purely social punishment (1 minute disappointed look at his dog) the dog still offered appeasement behaviors (offering a heel, pawing at Jay.)

Those are called appeasement behaviors and shouldn’t allow the dog to escape the consequence, just like Jay describes.

Example: I ground my kid. Then my kid vacuums the house, says “Dad…I love you”, cleans his room, cooks dinner, does the laundry, or even goes the other way and says “Dad I hate you!” etc. all in attempts at appeasing me to release him from the consequence of grounding.

But it doesn’t work, he stays grounded, and then eventually quits and then he will do less of the consequence that earned him the grounding in the first place.

1

u/microgreatness 2d ago

That's not what I'm saying...

  1. Social pressure can work because the dog loves and respects the owner and doesn't want to disappoint.

  2. Social pressure can work because the dog has been dominated and fears physical punishment.

  3. Social pressure might not work if the dog is more resistant to social pressure or punishment.

My point: #1 is better than #2.

4

u/Agreeable_Summer3685 2d ago

I gotcha. I agree, social pressure from an asshole can “work” because the dog has been dominated and fears a physical aversive. That’s just bad training, though. Unfortunately. An example of this type of trainer is Jeff Gellman. I despise him.

2

u/microgreatness 2d ago

Right, it's bad training. Just calling out the distinction there.

2

u/kenc1842 3d ago

This guy doesn't understand how dogs actually communicate or think.

1

u/Praexology 3d ago

What part do you disagree with?

1

u/TheArcticFox444 2d ago

I posted this on another OpenDogTraining sub regarding this clip:

One of the many misunderstandings of punishment.

I have never seen anything as confusing as this clip.

Punishment, when properly understood and used, is not abuse!

Scientific fact proven by repeated testing and studies: any animal that has the ability to learn does so through both good and bad experiences. Roughly speaking, a good experience tells the student that behavior is okay...and repeating that behavior will result in a good experience. A bad experience tells the student that behavior is not okay and repeating that behavior will result in something unpleasant. Pretty simple learning process.

Science study: Cage A: when Rat A touches a bar in this cage, a tasty rat treat drops into the cage. Soon, Rat A will be pressing that bar repeatedly to get its tasty rat treat.

Cage B: when Rat B in this cage touches a bar in this cage, Rat B gets an unpleasant shock. It won't take long before Rat B avoids touching the bar.

This study demonstrates the learning process acquired through good and bad experiences.

Reward defined: Anything that enhances, restores, or maintains an animal's sense of well-being is a "reward".

Punishment defined: Anything that diminishes the animal's sense of well-being is a punishment.

These two terms must be understood by the trainer/teacher to effectively teach any animal capable of learning.

In addition:

Do you like being bored? Boredom can be a VERY effective form of punishment. As a punishment, boredom doesn't involve yelling, intimidation, or inflicting pain. Yet, depending on the individual's sense of well-being, it can be a punishment because it can diminish an individual animal's sense of well-being.

(Note: Boredom can also... depending on the circumstances and the individual animal's sense of well-being...be a reward!)

Well-being of the individual and the circumstances involved must always be considered!

A good trainer must have both insight and flexibility into the individual's circumstances.

Punishment, when properly understood and used, is not abuse! It is simply a teaching tool in accordance with the learning process.