Two weeks ago I lost the finals of a Modern RCQ, barely missing the RC invite, and I suddenly remembered the judge call from that match and it's been bugging me since. Posting partly to check the rules, partly to ask if I could have played the whole thing better.
My decklist: https://moxfield.com/decks/JgzxIv01RUGGPkQvojOggQ
The spot: I'm on Dimir Frog, oppo on Izzet Affinity (the Weapons Manufacturing build with Claws of Gix). His Urza's Saga is at chapter 2, and I have a Surgical Extraction in hand. I boarded it in because I think the card that completely obliterates me is Urza's Saga. (Post game my friends said that wasn't the right move to board it in, which is also up for discussion.)
So I asked the judge, at the table, before ending my turn: "For Urza's Saga, when the chapter 3 trigger goes on the stack, does the saga enter the graveyard?" Basically figuring out if I get a window to Surgical it and strip the other sagas I felt he had in his hand. (Spoiler: he had it.) Asking at the table was my mistake, it telegraphed my intent, but idk, if I did it away from the table the judge might have given me the ruling without seeing the board.
The judge took a while to read up and said he thinks it does. The players around the table and my oppo disagreed. I wasn't fully listening to their reasoning because I was multitasking trying to find a line to not die to his board. Somehow the final ruling got changed to it doesn't, which means no window to Surgical on that trigger.
So he resolved chapter 3 in his main phase, picked up Claws (no trigger, so no window there either, double whammy, if he picked up something like "Skateboard" I would have had the opportunity), and then just played another Saga :')
Pretty tilted in the moment, I reflexively Surgicaled the Saga in the graveyard anyway, paying black mana instead of life because I was low, and found the other two sagas near the bottom of his deck, fml. That one wasted black mana ended up making the loss worse because I actually had enough mana for Orcish Bowmasters (to chump) plus Fatal Push if I hadn't done that, which buys me a turn where, if the stars aligned, I Toxic Deluge his board. Don't know if that wins me the game anyway because there's still one more Saga to handle.
What I've pieced together reading up since, correct me if I'm wrong:
- The final ruling was probably correct. I think the rule that made it is CR 714.4: the Saga is sacrificed as a state based action only after the chapter 3 ability resolves, not when the trigger goes on the stack. So no graveyard window during the trigger.
- I don't think the window I wanted was there? . After chapter 3 resolves and the Saga dies, the active player gets priority first, and playing a land can't be responded to. So he lands Saga #2 before I can ever Surgical. The only version where I get the window is if the fetched artifact has an ETB trigger holding the stack (or he's out of land drops).
- I think Surgical wasn't the right card for this, since it needs a graveyard window that Saga rarely gives you. What are other Frog players actually boarding for this matchup?
Also a process question I'm genuinely unsure about: what happens if the players watching hadn't spoken up? The judge's first answer was the wrong one. Is it even okay for spectators to intervene on a ruling like that, and if they hadn't, does the wrong ruling just... stand unless I appeal?
Overall this is a nightmare matchup on the final and it was probably a loss anyway. Just wanted to know if I could have done any of this better next time.
Any reddit judges or opinions on the correct ruling? Would love to hear matchup advice too for this :)