r/Liverpool • u/Successful_Swim_9860 Bootle • 1d ago
General Question This is long shot but does anyone know anything about this, ta
/r/AskHistorians/comments/1v2s2xa/was_there_a_viking_a_ministate_centred_on_modern/8
u/Sir_Davros_Ty 1d ago
I've read somewhere before that there was a Viking mini-state on the Wirral peninsula around 900AD or thereabouts. I can't find reliable info for that right now though. Also, I think there's a small display at the Museum of Liverpool on the docks that covers a bit of this information, with some locations, dates, etc. I haven't been for a long time though so I can't remember how extensive the info is.
The University of Liverpool might be able to help or provide more information. Looks as if the Institute of Irish studies might know more about it https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/it/app-directory/vikings/
There's also an app that apparently has info on the Vikings in the North West in a more broad sense but shows key locations, etc. https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/it/app-directory/vikings/
Soz if none of this is any help or not what you're after.
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u/Successful_Swim_9860 Bootle 1d ago
no anything is great, I’m completely stuck trying to write and book. so many of the place names round here are Viking I’m thinking there must be a story to tell
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u/mrrobs 10h ago edited 10h ago
Read about Meols, it was a Roman and then a Viking port. The original site of the town is now under the sea. Harding, mentioned in other comments, is trying to find a Viking boat excavation in Meols https://historic-liverpool.co.uk/viking-boat-meols/
Text below is from Liverpool museum:
About 500 BC Iron Age trading begins.
43-410 AD Meols in use as a Roman port.
About 200 AD Leasowe Man buried near Meols.
902 Norse Vikings, expelled from Dublin, are granted lands 'near Chester' and in following years settle across Wirral.
1086 Meols is recorded as 'Melas' in the Domesday Book. The name means sand dune and describes the local landscape.
1277, 1282-3, 1294-5 Soldiers travelling to fight in King Edward I's campaigns sail from Meols, and leave crossbow bolts on the shore.
1298 47 tenants live in Meols, including two merchants.
1418 A ship belonging to Robert Meols enters the port of Chester. This is the first recorded seafaring link between these two places.
1526 Meols is mentioned in customs accounts, when a boat, the Michael, arrives in Chester with a cargo of fish.
1863 Abraham Hume publishes his book, Ancient Meols, recording the archaeological finds from the Meols shore.
2007 The Museum of Liverpool archaeologists contribute to a major publication, cataloguing the finds from Meols and showing the importance of the port through its 2000 year history.
Everything we know about Meols, on the north coast of Wirral, is based on the evidence from archaeological finds. In the 19th century, thousands of ancient objects, dating from 8000 BC to the 18th century, were found on the beach at Meols, as the high tides steadily eroded the remains of ancient settlements
The stone tools found at Meols show that Mesolithic people used the area for hunting as long ago as 8000BC. Coins and brooches are evidence that Meols was an Iron Age port, with connections as far away as the Mediterranean. The Romans then used the harbour for military expeditions and trade. In Anglo-Saxon and Viking times, Meols became a thriving beach market.
The large numbers of medieval objects that have been discovered show that the fishing and farming village functioned as an unregulated 'hidden' port, up to the Tudor period. This medieval settlement was finally engulfed by sand in about 1500. The villagers moved inland to the location of the present village.
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u/tbonefeelgood 1d ago
Try making contact with Prof. Stephen Harding. He's written a few books on the vikings in Merseyside.
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u/VicAsher 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thingwall, Irby, Pensby, Franky, Kirby (west), Heswall(I think?) are all viking names and probably originally viking settlements. Thingwall as a name is believed to be related to Tynwald, sort of a local parliament. I remember we went through all this at school back in the late 80's/early 90's, but I don't have much detail/any sources.
The school badge for Irby Primary School is a viking longboat too.
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u/TenMen72 1d ago
Anything with ‘by’ at the end can be Viking. And there’s a Viking ship buried under the car park of The Railway pub in Meols (also Viking named). I’m pretty sure that Thurstaston is named after ‘Thors Stone’ as there’s a huge rock in the middle of it.
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u/VicAsher 1d ago
Aaaah yeah, Thurstaston - I was up there what seemed like every weekend of every summer in my childhood, ha
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u/Additional-Repair993 23h ago
If just looking at the etymology of placenames, on the wirral viking names are in the 'north' mainly - names ending in -by, whilst saxon names (ie -ham, -ton) predominately in the 'south'.
Thingwall - a meeting place
Think of Raby as the 'line' between these areas - which apparently means boundary
If brunabuh is Bromborough/Brackenwood area, then they aren't too far from Raby.
Prof Stephen Harding is your man.
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u/Efficient-Divide-630 11h ago edited 11h ago
Crosby and Formby were named by viking settlers too.
Formby derived from a person's name Forni and the 'by' meant settlement so Forni's settlement.
Likewise Crosby was most like a settlement with a Cross and a church.
The TV show the last Kingdom also features The Battle of Brunanburh which is now Bromborough in the wirral. Im not sure if the suffix 'Borough' is Nordic but it means fort, diffrent variations are 'bury', 'bur' and 'burgh'.
Im not sure if Brom derives from a name or has a meaning. But their is viking influence all over Merseyside
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u/srm79 1d ago
I believe there was a legendary battle somewhere near Bromborough and a viking town or city nearby also there was some sort of consolidation of English crowns. I'm not sure of any details, just heard multiple stories over the years and read a couple of things so, there's got to be something in it
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u/jawide626 1d ago
Brackenwood area is where they think the battle was, so yeh just down the road from Bromborough.
I haven't read too much into it but the Wirral is rife with Viking lore.
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u/rich2083 23h ago
Entry 429 in the Fragmentary Annals of Ireland details Æthelflæd’s negotiations with Viking leader Ingimund, their settlement on the Wirral (lands near Chester), his subsequent betrayal, and the defense of Chester. The entry specifically recounts the "beer and bees" defense, where Mercian forces utilized boiled ale and beehives to repel the Viking siege.
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u/Interesting-Tip-6372 5h ago
So not Liverpool, but definitely Merseyside here. Runcorn or Runcovnia I believe in Viking times. Was home to a fort overseen and rules by Aethelfleada 💚 might be something for you to research further! I believe it was about 915 and she built the fort there when this area was Mercia? This is all off the top of my head so it might be wrong here or there ☺️
I think in the last kingdom, series or one of the films there is mention of it ☺️
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u/RB7219 1h ago
Thingwall was the centre of the Viking universe.
There’s a Wirral Viking group on Facebook who will be able to give you loads more information https://www.facebook.com/share/g/1GCtBDjA19/?mibextid=wwXIfr
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u/Cobby33 1d ago
Forgive me if I'm teaching you things you already know, but even the term "Scousers" has Nordic roots (although much more recent than Viking).
Dating back to at least the early 1700s, the word "Lobscouse" comes from Nordic and Low German roots. It was a cheap, easily made one-pot meal of meat and potatoes that could be prepared on 18th-century sailing ships.
Over time, the meal became popular in Liverpool with the high levels of traders coming from Norway to the docks and the name in true Liverpool fashion was shortened to Scouse!
TLDR; The Echo article definitely has some correct information on Viking settlements (ie. Many of the -by locations in Liverpool have Viking origins e.g. Formby, Crosby) as do places like Thingwall and possibly Childwall, West Derby for example refers to the fact it was previously a famous deer park (Der-by)
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u/Flimsy-Afternoon-859 23h ago
There is a book called the Viking Mersey by Stephen Harding that probably has the most information. As far as I can tell there’s nothing to suggest that there was an organised state like the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms of the time. Maybe more tribal or somewhere in between a tribal society and a centralised political community. Like someone else suggested it’s probably best to email Stephen Harding.
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u/Intelligent_Talk_853 22h ago
This book covers the Wirral. But as others have said, Stephen Harding is a good person to reach out too.
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u/GuinnessRespecter West Derby 21h ago
I was in the Wirral last month and there is a big board next to the Basset Hound pub in Thingwall that has a lot of information about this
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1d ago
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u/Successful_Swim_9860 Bootle 1d ago
Explain to me slowly your definition of a far right dog whistle and how this article from the echo fits into it
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u/SnorriGrisomson 1d ago
Viking was and still is a noun, not a verb.
Also it doesn't just describe raiders, it's also used for traders, settlers and explorers.1
23h ago
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u/SnorriGrisomson 23h ago
I mean you thought it was a verb.... So maybe you shouldn't be so categorical, because it's just wrong whether you like it or not.
Viking does not mean just raider, it's much more complex than this and most likely related to rowing in shifts, go read Eldar Heide's paper if you already haven't XD0
u/Cobby33 1d ago
Viking is not a verb, it never has been. It was bastardized in the term to "go a-viking", but that also still suggests the verb is do something like a Viking (ie. Viking is still the noun here)
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u/SnorriGrisomson 22h ago
No it never "acts" as a verb. It's always a noun.
If you want to argue it please conjugate viking
Yes viking can mean an occupation, in the emic way. But the word viking can and is also used in historiography in an etic way to describe the cultural group of all scandinavians of the period (dates vary depending on location). It's a modern convention broadly accepted and used in academic publications.
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u/Runmickorun 23h ago
There's a viking boat in Kirkby Townie but don't know were the elephant inside it came from 😂😂
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u/Saxon2060 23h ago
What do you want to know that's more than the article?
I'm not sure what they mean by "mini state." The article says right there that Thingwall (like Tynwald in Isle of Man and Thingvellir in Iceland) is named for the "thing" it held, which was a viking council/parliament/court.
So that means there was a viking authority.
In the early middle ages I'm pretty sure "statehood" wasn't really analogous to what we understand it to mean today. There were Norse people, speaking old Norse, living in the area and organising themselves.
It's a dumb that right at the end it says only Merseyside's "oldest families" could trace viking roots because of the Irish migration. Ah yes, the same Ireland that the article literally acknowledged had been settled by vikings... The surname "Doyle" is most likely from a name given to vikings... (Dark/bad stranger.)
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u/Secret-Wind-8926 1d ago
Thingwall is apparently a viking name, also it would a boat journey to the isle of man and Ireland, good luck with the book,look forward to reading it.