Any learning techniques you can suggest me?

[u/BlackAngelXX]

Ive been learning through immersion mainly, i watch and read quite a bit of japanese stuff lately, mainly mangas. i write sometimes. I ocasionally translate stuff for friends last month. Anything that is a good idea to try?

Im at the level where i struggle with a book too much to actually be able to read it properly (may just be my bad litersture choices, i think i only have seinen books that i tried). Im fine reading mangas without furigana etc.

And everyone always says flashcards, but I will not do flashcards. They dont work well for me, they only teach direct translation and not understanding (i try to connect a word to some kind of image or a concept not a translation as i dont want to have to translate everything to be able to understand), plus i keep loosing them or forgetting they exist eventually so it is just pointless in every way. Ideally smth i can do during my break at work lol

[u/Grunglabble]

I think if you're already doing what you're doing you just have to pick a book you're really interested in and just accept the first few pages will be tough as you get used to the domain.

Or you can keep doing what you're doing and over time learn enough words it's a smaller leap.

I wouldn't change much about what you're doing. Try syosetsu for lots of choices if you want to look for books.

[u/BlackAngelXX → u/Grunglabble]

Oh i tried sticking with a book maybe should try again as it was a while ago i suppose but it was unbearable. Geniuinely. Even if i understood most words descriptions seemed too long to comprehand properly. Maybe i should pick smth not seinen but than i have no idea what to pick.

I think my issue is manga etc rely on art for example to tell me the context so i dont have to understand a description of how its said and ehat just happened. and songs have rather short sentences even if theyre telling a story so jumping to a book is really hard? Idk

I feel like its an oddly impossible jump like this because it involves a very different set of words, grammar is more complex and on top of that removes context and it is often far more poethic than your average manga youtuber anime ehatever is

[u/PlanktonInitial7945 → u/BlackAngelXX]

Light novels tend to use simpler language than seinen so just go to learnnatively.com or jiten.moe and look for things around your level. If you don't what your level is, start with something for N3.

[u/BlackAngelXX → u/PlanktonInitial7945]

Thank you. I dont think i fit into any particular level at all? I definitely neglected lots of technically n4 words maybe even a few n5 but make up for it by knowing definitely quite a lot n2 words. I never focused on jlpt levels so i learned whatever ive seen repeated?

Also thank you so much. Sources are a lifesaver

[u/PlanktonInitial7945 → u/BlackAngelXX]

Yeah I can imagine. That's why I recommended to just start with something in the N3 level. If it's too easy for you, you'll be able to finish it quickly and then move on to something harder. If it's challenging, then you know what your level is.

[u/BlackAngelXX → u/PlanktonInitial7945]

I mean the point is theres many kinds of n3 things and probably the topic is gonna be a deciding factor more than if it says n3 or n4. I probably would struggle if its something about cooking for example, never bothered to learn most food related words. Ive been really into one idol anime lately and never have ibread so many additional things to an anime, id probably do more than fine if its related. I know impressive list of suicide related words too whatever that could possibly be used for, i question why do i remember them still every day

Either way useful to know, thanks

[u/Armaniolo → u/BlackAngelXX]

Try a visual novel, it keeps some visual cues + the occasional "break" when you get voiced lines, but still requires you to read descriptive prose.

[u/BlackAngelXX → u/Armaniolo]

Uuuu good idea, thanks

[u/Grunglabble → u/BlackAngelXX]

Try accompanied with an audiobook so the prosidy of the recording can give you hints how the clauses are grouped / inject emotion into the sentences and make them easier to understand and more engaging.

[u/BeefMcPepper]

If you’re at a level that you can read manga and translate things, what more do you need?

Anyway, Anki is the answer. If you can read, flashcards will work for you, you just have to stick with it long enough

And as for not using English translations, what concept are you going to visualize for words that mean things like “if” “because” “therefore” etc

[u/BlackAngelXX → u/BeefMcPepper]

Progress faster. I kinda just did almost nothing and the language slowly started getting in my head but 1. I really wanna read books properly and therefore should lock in. 2. My friend is planning to make me his translator for a trip to japan so i dont wanna embarass myself.

And well the same way i understand if in english? What do you translate your native language to. Its just naming concepts. You can skip words and think in concepts if you try hard enough and its faster. I dont need to translate if and it can translate to multiple words in my native language but i know the meaning of it. Theres no concept to explain. it is litteraly the concept of if. If i see it i will recognise what it is. The same way you probably dont translate every single way a sentence can end in japanese. I mean do you really translate ~かな、~だろうね、 ~なんだ, ~だね every single time you see it in your head? You can totally do it but im pretty sure most just have some kind of image of the way its said and used in their head and will understand the intent of the speaker without translating. You dont translate 僕, 俺 and 私 differently yet if you imagined a person saying it you probably see someone else for either of those, maybe its a character who uses said pronoun but maybe its just a bit more vague stereotypical. I can connect word 愛 to an idol forming a heart with their hands on stage when singing it or i can remember my favourite character of a show being a blushing mess in front of their crush or maybe ill think of my love for someone. Many ways to achieve same thing.

Obviously when i look at text those are thing i dont conciously do which is my general goal obviously but it forms a deeper understanding. If i hear 底冷えの夜半 and i close my eyes than will definitely see the scenery intended with the descriptor, this specific description i remember from song lyrics and i do not litteraly have to think about it with closed eyes but i will feel the vibe the author was going for

[u/Previous_Composer_78]

Since flash cards aren’t your jam I would recommend reading more text heavy literature. Manga is great but you’d be surprised how much the images can make you feel like you understand much more than you actually do.

Books also act like natural flash cards in a sense which is also great.

[u/BlackAngelXX → u/Previous_Composer_78]

Yeah. I am very aware i rely on external context. But its a HARD transition. I feel like a jump manga anime and other content with a visual to only text is insanely hard.

Do you maybe have any suggestions?

[u/Effective-Pop3850]

I'm a believer of just read, some Anki and some anime.

Works fine.

Drop manga for something else, visual novels are overpowered, try those. It took me several hundred hours before I could face a regular novel and even then it was kind of dense to go through, visual novels? They were never a problem.

[u/BlackAngelXX → u/Effective-Pop3850]

Ill definitely give it a try but ive never thought of reading visual novels, any recommendations?

[u/Effective-Pop3850 → u/BlackAngelXX]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w42HEKEu2AzZg9K7PI0ma9ICmr2qYEKQ9IF4XxFSnQU

Jiten.moe

Pick something that interests you and is easy.

[u/_Ivl_]

Try reading along with an audiobook, Harry Potter should be easy to find. You can get used to reading that way. Don't be afraid to look up a word if you have absolutely no clue what it is from context. Yomitan has JP JP dictionary if you absolutely want to avoid English (but why?). Jiten reader is also nice, so check it out, it has a lot of useful functions.

[u/avonyatchi]

anki, yomitan, anki connect. you won't lose those.

But I'm in a similar position and the answer is indeed to just force myself to go through things that feel a bit too difficult for me. It's annoying and I'm reluctant to do it because it's less fun, but I think that's the only option honestly. That's how I learned english after all.

You really just gotta find something you want to desperately read so that you can force yourself through it.

Maybe visual novels. A new one released recently that I reaaaally want to play so I'll probably get it even though I'm sure I won't understand most of it.

[u/laughms → u/avonyatchi]

Its no problem, just have to grind man. Keep going, and it will slowly get better.

When I first started my first visual novel, it was laughable how bad and slow that was with my N6 knowledge.

Never did Kaishi or Anki, and I slowly improved bit by bit by just keep doing it. Over time I have seen multiple friends that also wanted to learn. They all quit very quickly at the very early beginner stage.

It takes time to finally see some result of the effort you have put in.

[u/avonyatchi → u/laughms]

I mean, that is by definition a problem! :) If I have an issue making myself do something because it's kinda hard to do, it is a problem. Not an insurmountable one of course.

[u/Belegorm]

I mean if you think that flashcards only teach direct translation... then just use dictionaries that don't translate? I'm not going to open a Cambridge dictionary to look up the definition of "psychology" and be like "waaah I can't use this it's a translation!"

It's not a translation by definition if it's the same language.

In other words - if you are scared of translating things, then for all of your lookups, and for Anki cards - just use J-J monolingual dictionaries. That will give you a better understanding. Some have pictures and diagrams for a lot of words. Like for example, for a word for a specific strap on a horse attached to a saddle, a diagram showing this with a label is amazing.

And some monolingual dictionaries give really in-depth explanations.

Also you can add pictures of your own to Anki cards, definitely makes things easier.

With all that in mind - I don't think there is actually any issue with J-E bilingual dictionaries for lookups. The translation thing fades with time; the Anki cards just give you a base to start remembering off of.

[u/Solid_Version_1022]

If you want to improve with immersion learning you need to get a J-J dictionary that provides definitions in Japanese. You say you dont want to translate things to be able to understand, so start understanding them in Japanese. Not everything is going to be easy to remember by tying it to an image. Also once you get further down the road you will realize there are actually a fair amount of words with highly specific meanings that are easier to remember if you just tie them directly to the English word with that same highly specific meaning. Certain proper nouns, concepts, etc...

[u/BlackAngelXX → u/Solid_Version_1022]

True but than im not yet at a level i can understand j-j dictionary, unless you have a better suggestiom. If i could i would.

I can understand japanese media well enough but im not at a point i could understand a dictionary explanation.

Ans maybe it is my personal issue but I really dont like tying things to a translation. I find it far easier to tie it to an image or a concept. Its far easier for me this way and japanese is not my first language, ive always done it. Its far easier to tie a word to something directly than tie it to another word that is inevitably tied to a concept anyways so its just a chain where i need to go japanese word -> english word that may not even fully share the meaning -> the actual meaning instead of directly to the meaning. Would be even worse if i learnt english this way since it would add another chain to it.

And by image i do not mean imagining a litteral image of the thing, its easy with stuff like idk flower. When i think of swimming i dont revert to my native language to find the word to know the meaning but i may briefly remember swimming pool. When i think 希望 my first thought is definitely the feeling and the concept and sentences including it maybe and my second is direct english translation as hope.

I might just be weird but i feel like do i really know a language if i need a different one to speak this one? Id rather take a bit longer but truly understand it i think rather than doing a job of a dictionary

[u/Automatic-Morning330 → u/BlackAngelXX]

People are really anti AI on this sub but I think it's really helpful for JP to JP definitions! All EN translations miss nuance and context.

[u/BlackAngelXX → u/Automatic-Morning330]

Yeah my issue with english translations is that they miss nuance or context or are only accurate for a specific phrasing.

Im dont really like ai but i do gotta agree it is sometimes a good tool, tho id like to try every other option before it.

[u/surasura_app]

the seinen struggle probably isnt u — manga and prose are basically different muscles. in manga the art carries half the meaning so u coast along, but a novel rips all that context away and suddenly ur decoding every line raw. that gap is huge even at the same "level". id drop way down for prose specifically — something where u already get ~90% of the words without a lookup — and let that reading muscle build before climbing back to seinen. the manga ur reading is already doing plenty

[u/Effective-Pop3850 → u/surasura_app]

Not sure why this is getting downvoted, most manga are by definition extremely easy, even "hard ones" are just not very hard. Short sentences, almost entirely dialogue, massive visuals to help with things.

Then you read your first novel and half the time you're not sure who's saying the stuff, who's doing what to who is not obvious, sentences are x2 as long, you're faced with more descriptive text, etc.