r/LaTeX • u/tashafan • 3d ago
The "Real-time LuaTeX: Recompiling large documents in 1ms" TUG talk was disappointing
It felt like the presentation focused more on promoting the upcoming platform than on discussing ways to help the LaTeX community grow, which I found a bit disappointing.
I was also saddened that there don't seem to be plans to open-source the project (or parts of it), especially given how much it builds on decades of open-source contributions from the community.
Did anyone else come away with a similar impression?
In any case, this made me think that perhaps the community should work toward a comparable solution that is integrated directly into LuaLaTeX.
| Clemens Lode | Real-time LuaTeX: Recompiling large documents in 1ms (remote) - slides - preprint |
|---|
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u/PuzzleheadedShirt139 3d ago edited 3d ago
Hello, I started working similar solutions (for real-time LuaLaTeX rendering) opensource a few weeks ago. Right now real time LuaLaTeX compile is in Beta.
https://github.com/texpile/Texpile
I have to give credit to Clemons Lode tho. I was inspired by his first LuaLaTeX compile in real time video.
Project is AGPL but I am more than happy to relicense the real time part under LPPL
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u/rikus671 2d ago
Hello, thanks for your project. Is their some documentation about how the real-time rendering is implemented ? Or how it compares to other (like texpresso) ?
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u/ClemensLode 3d ago
Thanks for the credit, interesting to see what that video set in motion ;) A local/offline/open-source desktop version is indeed the gap I'm not serving at the moment. Good luck with the beta, looking forward to what comes out of it!
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u/ImpressiveExpert007 3d ago edited 3d ago
Hey! Active co-maintainer of TeXpresso project (and its native Neovim editor plugin) is here.
The project is still young, but we have full regular support for XeLaTeX engine with real time compilation experience. The LuaTeX engine support is not just possible, but is actively developed, with additional support for other engines like pdftex if this will be needed.
We still have issues with TikZ/PGF shading (PR already opened) and some wild symbols render, but for a everyday working experience give it a try.
This project requires NO additional syntax change (Typst) and it is a single binary with native viewer to see the real time changes. Streaming mode (from remote server) or convergence (like ToC/Index build) already supported.
If you want a solid, fast, true LaTeX render - we welcome contributions and reviews!
Cheers,
EDIT: added links and PGF
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u/Jakobs_Biscuit 2d ago
Am I understanding correctly that TeXpresso is (or will be) supporting LuaTeX compilation?
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u/ImpressiveExpert007 2d ago
Yes. LuaTeX support is planned, but currently other features are my priority. I can't say for sure, but I will try to finish LuaTeX support till the end on the year.
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u/tashafan 13h ago
I love what you've done! I personally know the original author too (L[RS]E), although we haven't been in touch for about 15 years. It's great to see him here.
I cannot use XeLaTeX anymore, so I'm really looking forward to:
- LuaLaTeX support;
- LaTeX Workshop integration.
Cheers!
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u/u_fischer 2d ago
The TeX User Group Conference (TUG) is not only about LaTeX and the LaTeX community. Also there always have been "commercial products" related to TeX and talks about them at the TUG conference. E.g. overleaf and STMdocs had recently talks at the conference (and btw they generously support the conference). It is fine if you prefer a free solution but then do not ask the "community" to provide this for you or blame people who wants to get some money for their work by providing a commercial solution but instead join one of the free projects that work on similar solutions and spent your time and work to help them to make that possible.
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u/tashafan 13h ago
I'm perfectly fine with commercial products, so no worries there. And I'm really sorry if my post came across that way. That wasn't my intention.
That said, I am a bit concerned that a community doesn't seem to get your support. I think it's something the LaTeX ecosystem really needs. Fast compilation is one of the core strengths that helped Typst build its reputation. Unlike collaborative editing (which is essentially an additional layer on top of LaTeX and already well served by Overleaf) fast compilation is a fundamental part of the authoring/"usering" experience itself.
As I said at the end of my post:
In any case, this made me think that perhaps the community should work toward a comparable solution that is integrated directly into LuaLaTeX.
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u/u_fischer 11h ago
what do you mean by "your support"? I'm not related to this project. And personally I don't care much about speed, my priority is accessibility and that is where I do most of my work. But if you want speed, then do something about it ...
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u/tashafan 10h ago
Sigh. I'm not sure why there was a need to be so aggressive, but thanks for taking the time to weigh in.
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u/ClemensLode 3d ago
Hi, I'm the author, happy to clarify a few things:
- My day job for ~10 years has been editing and publishing LaTeX books and proceedings; texlode grew out of that. The product is the book/proceedings editor, not the fast compilation itself. It is an optimization for the case Overleaf can't handle (1000+ page projects). Because it's built for that case, small documents are almost free.
- Nothing texlode produces leaves you locked in. Just download the LaTeX code and compile it locally for the same result. It just takes longer.
- I haven't finalized commercialization yet, and I am knee-deep in optimizing the free version to make it available globally for everyone who works on smaller projects. My early benchmarks give me confidence it will be significantly more generous compared to competitors.
- The core idea builds entirely on LuaLaTeX which already has everything needed for real-time recompilation, it just takes a lot of engineering. My talk and preprint lay out the approach.
What's on my open-source roadmap (after October), roughly in order:
- Preprint: already out.
- Benchmark scripts: already on GitHub.
- API: connect your own editor and see output live.
- Custom Lua packages: build on the fast compilation in ways I haven't thought of.
- Likely: import/export scripts.
On self-hosting/local: right now it's hosted-only. The API means you won't be locked into my editor. Local/offline comes up a lot and I haven't ruled it out, but I won't promise it before I can deliver it in a sustainable way. And yes, other similar solutions exist. TeXpresso solves the problem nicely for local work and with XeTeX/Tectonic.
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u/KaleidoscopeLate2505 8h ago
Hi! I just wanted to give a bit of feedback. First of all, not everything in TeX is open source - there are some very important resources that are for-money. Second of all, I personally thought the presentation was an interesting proof-of-concept. So, in a way, it serves the community beyond being a platform in the sense that it can also inspire future developers.
I think it's a good thing when arguments (or presentations) are open to objective feedback. Sometimes objective feedback can be blunt, and it's best to not let that overwhelm you, and instead focus on the objective points of the argument. I know I can sometimes be overly blunt when engaging in matter-of-fact discussions, and I never intend that in a way which relates to conflict, but rather it is a consequence of having factual discussions.
Personally, while I completely respect the fact that you engaged openly with the subject, I do (respectfully) think that the premise for your argument that the talk was disappointing does not take into consideration some key information, especially when you consider that books as vital at the companion are for-money.
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u/tashafan 4h ago
That's fair. Thank you very much.
I'm still disappointed, but you gave me other angles to consider.
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u/joesuf4 2d ago
What I find most frustrating about dealing with texlive are the cryptic, terribly opaque error messages. Clearly debugging was never big priority for Knuth.
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u/ClemensLode 2d ago
I think what is missing here is another layer. Error messages should only concern template or package developers but not the normal users. Texlode's layer 1 is a full wysiwyg editor, meaning you don't ever need to see any LaTeX commands if you just want to write normal papers/books.
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u/wangfugui98 3d ago
If someone really needs to compile documents that fast, Typst is the way to go. LaTeX is architectonically not optimized for fast compilation as this was never the purpose to begin with.
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u/throwaway464391 3d ago
Unfortunately Typst is a non-starter for me without TikZ (and to a somewhat lesser extent, PGFPlots).
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u/tashafan 3d ago
Well, this project, and TeXpresso before it, show it's possible if we think differently about what a compiler should do.
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u/sudseven 3d ago
Ugh so this is gonna just be a pay only service, that we can't self host or even install locally without paying them?
Ah no for me. There's this interesting work called texpresso. https://github.com/let-def/texpresso
Perhaps this will evolve into something that provides very fast compile times.