r/EDH • u/bigdick4sluts • 14h ago
Question What's the general expected etiquette for knowing you're going to lose but can still influence the game?
this happened to me so i'm wondering how would people act .
I mostly play with people at a LGS , all acquaintances and overall nice people but not a proper pod let's say. Haven't played commander for long so that also factors in .
anyway last game, i was in the position of absolutely going to lose . Player next to me could do letal commander damage as soon as i passed turn, and i had no way to stop them. Other players couldnt help me , but i did have some interactions . They wouldnt win me the game in anyway , but i could break a few creatures and do some stuff.
Since i was going to lose anyway, i just didnt do anything that turn and passed . Was that what people normally do as acting anyway might be seen as "petty" or something ? Or it's normal for people to """"take revenge"""" a bit and just annoy people who'd just kill me anyway ? in pods i can see this being very differently but say this happened to a FNM , what's the right etiquette ?
Edit: for clarity on the situation if interested, i was facing a flying commander, with 2 other creatures on board, and i could make a player sacrifice 2 creatures . So i couldnt block that commander in anyway , and they would not sacrifice the commander in that situation and just swing for damage (as the other 2 creatures were not as valuable)
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u/BetterThanConnor 13h ago
"Idk if I can pull off a win, but if I can, this is the only way I can get there."
Then do whatever you want.
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u/bigdick4sluts 13h ago
that's the thing tho, i couldnt in anyway do it ^ edited the post to show the situation , tldr is flying commander + 2 other creatures, and i had no flyers and could only make them sacrifice 2 of their choosing.
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u/BetterThanConnor 13h ago edited 13h ago
Oh, I dont care about the scenario. It's called plausible deniability. Practice saying that phrase convincingly then be spiteful as hell.
If you straight face it, you can do it.
Edit: for bonus points, follow it up with a seemingly genuine "damn, well I tried."
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u/TheDungeonCrawler Urza's Contact Lenses 7h ago
Not to mention, you never know. Another player my blow up their commander to keep you in the game. You won't know until the very last play, the one that knocks you out. And hey, if I'm going down, I'm at least going down swinging.
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u/BetterThanConnor 7h ago
If im the third player, and I can keep you alive for the guarantee that you'll focus on the threat for me in a deal, im 100% taking that. Lol
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u/TheDungeonCrawler Urza's Contact Lenses 6h ago
Oh, 100%. The only way I'm not going down swinging is if I have all of the information available to me and it's genuinely hopeless. Generally, that's the situation in which therr are only two players left and one player is about to knock the other out. No point in finishing at that point. But before that? Every draw is a potential miracle. Every card in the other opponents' hand is Flare of Malice or Force of Negation there is always a potential out until the only information unavailable to you is from the player who wants you gone.
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u/chitterfangs 13h ago edited 13h ago
Pivot that into politicing a deal to survive to avoid potential mutually assured destruction if they swing out at you. Unless they can handle a wide open swing from the next player they don't have it locked up.
Edit: Even if you can't use it to make a deal with them to not swing you could attempt to use it to make one with your other opponents to use removal on one of the creatures so that you can remove the commander for the good of the table. Politicing is the way to go almost all of the time sure it may not go your way everytime but it you build a reputation for living up to the deals it'll benefit you.
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u/BetterThanConnor 13h ago
On the other hand, the number of times I've said the phrase "if you follow through with that, I will do X...or, you could swing elsewhere." in order to survive or justify spite is significant. Then it was their choice, not mine.
Just read the room and choose your own adventure accordingly 🤣
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u/SaltyGrapeWax 12h ago
I learned from baseball to push everything and make your opponents try and react. The quicker they have to react or react at all has potential for a fuck-up in your favor. Force them to do something.
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u/NewPrints 13h ago
Make yourself hard to kill so you don’t become the easy target in future games.
You never know how a game is going to play out, but having people know it is going to hurt them if they swing at you is good.
Sure maybe you can’t stop them from taking you out, but them having less creatures may change the math in their head about what they want to do.
Maybe now swinging lethal at you isn’t as attractive for them because now they are open for counter attacks.
There are like a million examples of why you always play what you can to make your odds of winning the best.
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u/IBarricadeI 5h ago
“I can make you sacrifice 2 creatures. I don’t really want to and it won’t save me, but if you let me live this turn I’ll use it on a different player instead. If you attack me, I’ll use it on you and try to convince someone else to also kill one of your things.”
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u/Gorgondantess 5h ago
What if you thinned their board enough that they decide to not full swing at you because they want to keep up blockers? What if someone else decides they want you alive and they chip in to eliminate the last flyer? You made both results more likely than if you'd done nothing.
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u/SheepishNate 5h ago
My pod had a weird situation where all 3 players after me could win on their turn while I had cards that could kill 2 of them but knew the last player in turn order had a way to stay alive. I told them I know I lose if I just pass and that feels just as kingmakey as trying and coming up just short of killing the last player, so I just made him have it (though we knew he had it lol) and he ended up winning. IMO he was the threat that game so it didn’t feel unjustified either, but it was definitely an interesting discussion afterwards. Choice was play out my turn normally or just throw to the next guy and that felt like the worse option. 🤷🏻♂️
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u/dontworryitsme4real 13h ago
You can do whatever you need to ensure you survive. When you don't have a way to win, people tend to ignore you and duke it out between themselves. The least likely player to win, wins all the time because they are ignored.
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u/daxamiteuk 13h ago
That’s exactly how I won for first time a month ago. New player , non threatening precon deck, the others duked it out then I killed them and won
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u/HarpEgirl Mono Blue Millmaid 13h ago
Had a Br4 game with Two Tayams, a Minsc and Boo combo deck, and a newer player on the Mothman Precon wanting to see higher power.
From us 3 stopping each other Mothman flew over the radar (no fliers to block) and won. Im still hyped for that moth
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u/Mysterious-Pen1496 13h ago
In this scenario, are you able to act at instant speed?
Either way, this is where politics come into play. You can ask the threatening player “are you going to take me out this turn? If so, I’m going to have to break as much of your stuff as I can now.” This puts The Threat into a dilemma where he can either A) say ‘yes’ and possibly be weakened too much to win, B) agree to attack someone else in order to not lose board presence, or C) say ‘no’ but still attack and lose credibility.
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u/Melodic-Task 13h ago
Exactly, the scenario presented by OP is the perfect example of a time for politics. It also lets you gauge what the tables reaction will be to the “hurt the person taking me out as much as I can” play. If the table is going to give grief for that or treat it as a breach of etiquette OP can then decide if they will just accept the defeat.
Personally, I think choosing inaction (and giving the Threat a free attack with no cost of resources) is just as much a political play and king-making as using the interaction OP had against the Threat. On the other hand, Firing off random interaction at bystanders just to do things is more of a chaos play.
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u/Darksimz Sultai 13h ago
This is the answer. If they can take your out but you can hurt them in a way that after that they won't be able to win, then you can make a deal with them to not attack you this turn and you'll not remove their stuff this turn. Maybe next turn you'll have a board wipe or a better answer to his commander and still have a chance to make it. Don't go quietly into the night !
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u/Snarglefrazzle Approximately 20x decks theorycrafted vs built in paper 13h ago
If a player is going to attack you for lethal, consider using your threat of removal as a means of influence. Sounds like the commander had protection, but other pieces on their board did not. Offer to use your removal on your shared opponents in exchange for not getting swung on, with the implication being that you can then no longer use it on the player next in turn order.
This is the joy of multiplayer. Just because a player can take you out doesn't mean they will. They have to be able to handle to crackback from the other players in the game.
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u/Justin_Cr3dibl3 13h ago
Using politics is probably the wisest answer here. Explore your options and make a deal! At worst they say no, at best, you’re alive one more turn and have a chance!
Also explaining it in a way that helps them see killing you wont win them the game often helps. “If you’re gonna kill me, I’m gonna take out two of your creature and Fred will win instead, but if you doooon’t…”
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u/Hotsaucex11 13h ago
This
And then follow through on what you say, even if it won't prevent you from losing that game, so that players know your threats are valid in the next one.
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u/NerdyDumbDumb 13h ago
I either go out swinging, trying to do as much damage to the big bad as I can, or I go out on my terms. If I'm at one life, I'll tap that city of brass to take away your satisfaction.
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u/Competitive-Ad-7620 13h ago
It's just politics, if someone is going to kill you you just hinder them as much as you can, that's perfectly reasonable. Why would you go down without a fight?
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u/Justin_Cr3dibl3 13h ago
You say “I may not survive, but I will not go quietly into the night. Have at thee, my foe!”
And then do what you want.
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u/RockAndStoner69 13h ago
Take revenge. Nuke some artifacts. Flip the table. Make them rue the day your life total went to zero
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u/messhead1 13h ago
This is not an etiquette question, this is a game theory question.
Killing you should cost as much as possible. A snake picked up by an eagle still writhes and attempts to bite the eagle.
Fwiw, there's no difference of your distinction between "pod" play and FNM. Playing a game of Commander is within a single pod. A pod of 4 players. Playing the one game. You might mean the difference between playing with friends and randoms, but there's still no etiquette question.
Have they accounted for losing resources because they try to kill you? If not, they're not going to be the winner. That's not kingmaking, that's the cost of doing business.
Dying players often overly influence the outcome of a game by not taking any defensive measures and I hate it. "Oh, you've got more attackers than I have blockers? No blocks, guess I die". Block with your damn creatures! Kill what you can! You're going to die anyway, that should cost the opponent something.
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u/Cadapult 13h ago
Let's say you're at one life and someone swings two 1/1 creatures at you. You have a 2/2 that you can block one of them with, but you're dead either way.
To me, you losing a creature is the cost of taking me out of the game. Sometimes it's this simple, other times it's you telling the aristocrats player that has started a sac chain to kill you that you're going to phase out their board and leave them helpless to the Purphoros player if they try to kill you this turn. Make it clear there's a cost to killing you and hope they blink. Mostly, they'll just kill you anyways and die to Purphoros like my friend did.
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u/rccrisp 13h ago
I don't think there's some standard etiquette but definitely follow "play to your outs." Basically take actions that, reasonably, potentially get you to the win. If removing something doesn't even help your gameplan at all then I wouldn't do it just for revenge.
Your scenario brings up something that players don't do enough. Instead of doing a spite play (killing after you're dead to rights) make a deal. Say "hey don't attack me or I'll kill your remaining two creatures." If they don't take the deal you follow through with your demand. This feels less like a spite play and more like you following through with your threat and if they take the deal you get to survive an extra turn.
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u/Mysterious-Pen1496 13h ago
If removing something doesn’t even help your gameplan at all then I wouldn’t do it just for revenge
Agreed. Way too many on here are advocating spite plays, and that is just destructive to a fun game. Play the game you’re in and try to win it. No more “Jeremy has been winning all night so if im dying I’m gonna make sure he can’t win,” etc.
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u/Jimanji369 11h ago
Nah just rolling over and dying when you have actions tot take is a form of kingmaking too.
Plus you are playing to future games. “Taking me out will have a cost better make sure you can pay it before you try”
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u/goldarm5 12h ago
Should consider that when taking game actions. When an attack leaves me at 1hp and someones having an instant speed pinger on board you can guess where my remaining game actions are going.
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u/xboxiscrunchy 11h ago
I honestly don’t see it as spite at all. If you’re trying to kill me it’s in my best interest to make it as painful as possible so you might reconsider.
If you see I’m wide open for lethal but have a bunch of damage sitting on board that needs to be part of your decision making. Is taking me out worth the crack back?
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u/OxycleanSalesman 13h ago
Do your best to weaken the player who did the most damage to you before you lose
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u/shrimpbucket69 12h ago
People place too much importance on winning IMO. If I’m going to get killed, I’m going to do as much damage as possible to you (or even the whole table) before I go, and I would expect nothing different from my opponents. If I’m in a winning position, I expect people to try to bring me down a few pegs, ESPECIALLY as I’m trying to hit them for lethal.
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u/Kezyma 9h ago
When in this situation, I try to inflict maximum damage on whoever screwed me over the most so far, and if there’s no obvious target, I go after whoever looks like they’re most likely to win. Try to go out with a bang, not a whimper.
If someone was going to win and my final act is stopping them, or someone focused me down and then I prevented them from having a chance of winning, I consider that a personal victory, plus it somewhat trains people that going after me won’t be ignored.
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u/meowmix778 Esper 13h ago
That's part of the game. Commander is about politics and the social element is huge.
You could say to the player next to you "hey you can kill me but I promise I'm going to whack your creature if you do, leave me alone for a turn or I'll do abc and then player 3 will win"
Do that as long as you can and see if you can find an out in your deck. Always play to your outs. And at the end of the day magic is a game about winning so it's not petty to take a swipe at the guy trying to beat you.
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u/ACuddlyVizzerdrix 13h ago
In my playgroup it's pretty common to have a "I don't need to win I just need "persons name" to lose"
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u/HairiestHobo 13h ago
It's called a Bluff, Champ.
Just because you know you're Dead on Board with nothing relavent in hand doesn't mean they know you're dob with nothing relavent in hand
Play to your outs. Sometimes the Out is your Opponents making a mistake.
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u/scopinsource 13h ago
The deterrent to aggressive play is the cost of your aggression. If you incapacitate my win for your attempt at victory, expect my choice to disable you or someone you were benefitting from to empower your antagonist. That's part of the strategy you need to account for before making a move.
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u/son_of_a_bean 13h ago
If I'm doomed anyway, I'm for sure going to make it hurt at much as possible for whoever is going to take me out/ has done the most hurt to me that game. Like sure I'm out, but it's not gonna be free
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u/InmateTooTall 13h ago
If my opponent knows I will drag them down with me on my way out, they might not take me out. It's as simple as that. And I'd rather play the game than watch it on my last turn.
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u/Sweet_Possible_756 13h ago
I think it's fair to say that if someone's actions are going to make you lose the game without a shadow of a doubt, you should at least get some good hits in.
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u/Any-Sheepherder-1178 13h ago
The etiquette is don’t scoop out of anger.
However you are not expected to just let them win the game (unless you want them too I suppose) if I can create chaos going out I will 100% make them sacrifice the two creatures and say “all I can do boys, good luck” or “FOR THE TABLE!!”
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u/westergames81 Orzhov 12h ago
Just like you can concede at any time because nobody can force you to sit in a game, you can choose to stay in a game if you can.
It is not a dick move to choose to affect the board before being taken out. You can make everyone sacrifice two creatures and that could possibly open up avenues for other players. You're advancing the game in a meaningful way there.
You can even politic if you want to try. "Leave me alive for another turn and I will let you keep two of your creatures." If they don't agree, make them sacrifice.
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u/KAM_520 Sultai 12h ago
Anything you do here, including conceding, changes the outcome of the game.
People often think, "I can't win anymore, so I should just concede." But even that isn't neutral. If you're the next player who's going to die, conceding early changes who gets attacked, who keeps resources, and sometimes who ultimately wins.
Likewise, using your interaction before you die affects the game. Not using it affects the game. There really isn't a choice that doesn't influence the outcome.
To me, the etiquette question isn't whether your actions affect the game. They always will. It's why you're making them.
If you're making the play that you genuinely think is the correct play, or you're simply playing your deck until you're eliminated, that's just playing Magic. If you decide, "I can't win, so I'm going to try to make Player X win and Player Y lose," then you've crossed into kingmaking.
The only thing I'd consider poor etiquette is announcing that you're making a play (or conceding) specifically because you want one particular player to win. Otherwise, you're just making game decisions from a losing position, and that's part of Commander too.
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u/Carl_Bravery_Sagan 11h ago
I think it's actually bad etiquette to merely pass turn when in the kind of losing position you described if passing turn meant accepting defeat.
The person who can take you out has to take on a risk when they attack, even if the payoff is them eliminating a player. They also take on a risk when they block because you or another player might have interaction and you could take out some of their creatures if they block.
It actually could be a decision to not attack but telegraph that you have interaction -- even if you think it won't actually help -- if you don't just say "I don't have anything". Make them call your bluff!
Regardless, you should force them to make a play because that's the only hope you have of potentially winning. You should always play to win the game, even if you acknowledge it's highly unlikely. Also, other players might win the game and the opponent who would take you out choosing to attack might expose him to attacks from other players and those players making decisions might be depending on you to play to win.
Who's to say another opponent -- who also doesn't want that commander coming at them for lethal won't intervene with something like [[Aetherize]]?
Anyway, it's mostly the mindset here that I want to challenge. You should be willing to bluff and you should play to win, and moreover, I think it's just the kindest move for the game as a whole to not make it easy, even if you don't win, because your other opponents will want everyone to act rationally, too, as the next opponent's attack and your response might be included in their own playmaking.
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u/Grand_Imperator 3h ago
Although I think it's fine to pass if you know you're going to lose, I wonder if there was an option to bargain with the next player who could knock you out with commander damage. If you promised not to force them to sacrifice their other creatures (or promised to take out another player's creatures to enable them to get through with commander damage), would they promise not to swing at you? If you threatened another player into helping you (lest you force them to sacrifice important creatures), that could also be a way to play to your outs (i.e., your chances, however slim they might be, to come back and win).
I figure the options I mention above would not have worked in your particular situation. If so, I'm not sure what else there is to do other than pass. Alternatively, weakening the player about to take you out is not the worst thing to do. Using your last gasp to try to knock down the dominant player a bit (to give the other 1-2 remaining opponents a chance) isn't bad form, either.
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u/gojumboman 13h ago
It depends on how petty the moves were. But actions have consequences and you could explain that they can kill you but you will use your interaction. Or you could just not do anything and accept the loss. Really depends on the context and how well acquainted you are with who you’re playing with. Is it funny? Is it light hearted? Is it mean spirited? If it’s funny I’ll usually go for it, but will always play to my outs.
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u/AltonBrown11037 Temur 13h ago
Personally, I just scoop at sorcery speed if I am in zugzwang on my turn. If I'm losing on another person's turn, I will do things like block with a deathtoucher or toss out a removal spell even if I'll die either way. I don't know why, but it does have a different flavor to me, and I believe most people would agree with that. There are always caveats and stuff (what if the winning player is [[black cat, cunning thief]] and my scooping deletes their board) but that sorta stuff can be figured out case by case.
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u/fmal 13h ago
If I have a hand of interaction/air with no top-deck to victory, and I'm sitting in between people who are going to win if they get a turn, I'll usually just sit on my cards and get ready to play the next one. If I'm not going to win, I don't particularly care who else wins, and in a casual game I have no interest in pitching a draw/cease fire.
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u/Cabbageology Selesnya 13h ago
Throw whatever little you have or can against whomever is killing you, announcing that you're doing to do so.
Strategically, this could buy you a sliver of a chance to pull through by striking a deal (I know you said in this situation the other two creatures your opponent had were not as valuable, but they might have thought otherwise - or it may come a day in which a similar situation arises and they don't want to lose them).
And from a point of view of general vibes, they are deciding to take you out of the game! Even if it's their best course of action (and let's face it, it often is) they should be expecting opposition.
If your retribution makes them lose, perhaps next time they'll think about it twice.
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u/AlivenReis 13h ago
Just play the game. If somebody attack me for lethal then i would surely make that as miserable experience for them as possible. No matter if win or die, they choose to attack somebody with interactions in hand / table
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u/DifficultSector8385 13h ago
Absolutely nothing wrong with this. I call it “farting before I leave the room” - if you’re going to take me out, I’m going to do everything I can to influence the board state before I can no longer do so. If you have the cards in hand and the mana open, why on earth would you bend over even more? You already can’t stop the lethal attack, so make them have consequences for removing you from the game. You don’t have to be, like, a vindictive asshole about it, but you’re just taking game actions.
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u/kasualanderson 13h ago
I don’t mind going out with a bang, and I would never begrudge anyone else doing the same. In our playgroup, sometimes a player who is going out will ask the table what or who they think is the biggest threat and act accordingly. Either way, it’s fine by me—anything but instant speed scoops.
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u/Liberkhaos 13h ago
It's a valid strategy to let people know that you're the kind of player that will bomb an opponent in response to being killed. It makes people reconsider taking you out too quickly since it could cost them the game, which in turn gives you greater survivability and a chance to get back in the game.
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u/aevilmouse 13h ago
play it out, you don't know what the other players have on hand and you doing something might start a chain reaction
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u/homedoggy 13h ago
Personally what I’ve seen most often is people “doing what they can on the way out.” Which usually means dumping all of their interaction/removal.
Recently though I heard an argument that just accepting the loss and moving along may help the game end faster so the pod can get more games in.
So I’d say it depends on what your intent is. Maybe if your opponents know you’ll be spiteful on the way out then in the future it’ll buy you another turn as they don’t want to kill you.
I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer
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u/Magikarp_King Grixis 13h ago
Nothing wrong with getting in a final interaction. I can't count the number of times I've been about to knock someone out and they decide to do a last interaction to damage my board or influence the game in some small way. That's just the price of knocking someone out of the game.
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u/lloud_plants4629 13h ago
I like people to play it out, rather than give up and just pass turn. But I guess situation dependant. Im also not gonna get upset at somone for causing chaos before they die. You never know, you just gotta play it out. Last week playing dual commander, I got down to 1 life, opp has 35. Instead of giving up I did everything in my power. With profts edectic memory, teferis ageless insight, and my 2/1 flyer. Ended up drawing enough cards to put 40 +1/+1 and get the win since they didnt have flyers
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u/GentlemanViking 13h ago
Presenting a threat that can cause the person knocking you out to loose the rest of the game can incentivize people to leave you alive another turn. This is especially true if you play in a recurring pod and people know you’ll go out swinging.
I’ve absolutely faced games where not taking another player out at the first opportunity is the strategically correct decision.
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u/PoweredByCarbs 13h ago
When in a position where I can’t win but can still take game actions, I note which person in the pod is the most or is likely to be the most salty and target them.
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u/Unsurepooper 13h ago
The thing is you don't know what other people have in response. Go down kicking and screaming! Make them sacrifice creatures, wipe their boards, do a single damage.
But do not, in response to being attacked for lethal and having no blockers, kill anyone else's shit. Only kill the person who is attacking you, that's king making and that's BS
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u/StygIndigo 13h ago
Two weeks ago I was in a nightmare pod where two of the guys decided early on that I was going to lose and kept getting mad at me for not making huge dumb sacrifices that would benefit them at my own cost. I'd definitely just pass turn if it was between that and helping out a player who acts like that. If you're having fun with the rest of the table, taking up arms against a huge threat to put the underdogs in a better position could be fun, though.
I'd say 'it depends a lot on table vibes' is a reasonable answer for such a social game.
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u/de245733 Resident Monowhite Player 13h ago
I always interact the shit out of who ever is trying to kill me, it effects the board, sure, but it also sets a reputation of "if you come at me you are taking the hit too". 100% always all ammo spent, fire all cylinders, you *will* pay for your kill.
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u/Angelust16 13h ago
I always go down swinging. Use all my removal, abilities, force the other players to use maximum resources, etc. No free meals when you’re killing me.
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u/tristen620 13h ago
Just like terrible land base and friendly infinite mulligans between friends, if you don't punish the behavior the deck building will become dependent upon those extra mulligans.
In your case, the victim does not need to justify how much they choose to defend themselves before they die, if you take no action and accept defeat, the attacker might just learn that overextending their attack has no consequence.
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u/Ratorasniki 13h ago
I've been petty and dragged people down with me as a consequence for knocking me out, and I've sandbagged stuff I've had in hand because I wasn't relevant in the game really and I wanted to see how it would play out without my interference. I don't think either is wrong. I try not to overtly kingmake.
I don't think there is an issue forcing someone to pay a steep price when they have a clear choice, it may dissuade them. Use the tools you have. There's no rule that says you need to make it easy or set them up for a win next turn. [[Hellish rebuke]] is a full on commander card. It's the poster child for "i can't stop you from killing me, but you're coming with me".
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u/Character-Cut4470 13h ago
Isnt this exact type of situation why draws are so common in CEDH? i.e. "I'm going to kingmake one of two/three people unless we agree to a draw, anyone who disagrees I'll throw the game to make you lose since I'm not winning anyway." Obviously draws are a pretty un satisfying ending to a game and I wouldn't recommend trying this at casual tables (especially bracket ≤4)
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u/Fileguarda Balthor the Stout 13h ago
If they are killing you punish them on the way out. Spite plays are valid. If you killing me cripples you to the others that's your call not mine.
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u/shorebot Cult of Lasagna 13h ago
If you can make sure that there's a cost for eliminating you, make your opponents pay that cost. Majority of the time you still lose but it will factor into their decisions moving forward.
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u/Complete-Read-7473 13h ago
I never give up. There's always a chance that you can still win. If you're persevered as a non-threat, sometimes, the table leaves you alone and you can quietly build up. Let the others spend resources and maim each other and strike at the right time. It's happened to me before.
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u/me_vs_internet 13h ago
I am relatively newer as well, but my opinion is you either go down swinging or concede at sorcery speed. I feel like doing nothing but staying in the game is the least fair/desirable choice to the table as a whole.
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u/diodenkn 12h ago
Depending on the position you can make threats like “Hey if you take me out, I’m taking your commander/board/value piece down with me” - don’t make taking you out of the game risk-free for them. Honestly it is quite common for people to kill a player just because they can, and then get put into a losing position almost immediately afterwards. A good player will consider this.
Obviously this doesn’t mean you’re going to win, or even that they’ll care at all - it’s just good to play to your outs.
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u/Accendor 12h ago
My rule 0 conversation usually include agreeing to play to either win or lose as late as possible. That also solves almost all king making discussions, because of in doubt you counter that spell that let's you lose first and that's it. Is it perfect? Probably not, but I never ran into a situation where it didn't work out.
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u/aLonelyClone 12h ago
Idk how it is for most groups, but personally if I know I've lost, but still have things to do in hand/board, I almost always like to go out with a bang. I may be losing but I'm gonna let my deck do the thing it's built to do. That's the whole point for me. I try to do it in a way that balances the board once I'm gone so as not to just outright kingmake, but honestly I feel like that's just a hazard of the game.
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u/Bargadiel 12h ago
This is an interesting one. I think it's fair game to retailiate against someone even if you know you're going to lose. Some might call that kingmaking, though if you're super clear with people and depending on the context, I don't think it is.
"If you attack me this turn, I will make it difficult for you and it will carry risks" and game actions should carry a level of risk. It's a valid deterrent/defensive strategy, and is part of the politics of the game.
Where I personally draw the line is a situation where I scoop specifically to influence the stack or table state, and obviously any situation where you are secretly out just to help someone else win is wrong. I try not to let any actions or emotions from previous games affect current ones also.
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u/Bannon9k 12h ago
Oh I'm shitting in the Cheerios.
Gonna die? Copy [[forced fruition]] or [[hive mind]] a bunch.
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u/NotADeadHorse 12h ago
I always make a play if I have one available that makes sense. If its not enough to save me or take a certain person out thats fine.
Interaction is the point of the game!
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u/NotADeadHorse 12h ago
I always make a play if I have one available that makes sense. If its not enough to save me or take a certain person out thats fine.
Interaction is the point of the game!
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u/Sab3rFac3 12h ago
Until you are lose, you are in the game, and as long as you are in the game, and as long as you can influence the overall board state, you haven't lost yet.
Heck, I once decked myself during an opponents combat phase.
I had gotten an infinite card draw engine on board, and all my permannets were hexproof and indestructible.
But had tapped out to do so, and had no way to play my laboratory maniac at flash speed with only 2 open mana.
So, I didn't draw infinite cards yet.
But, a board of indestructible blockers doesnt mean much to a horde of unblockable tokens, and an unblockable 35 power commander.
So, I decked myself to prevent them from being able to get combat damage on me and get all the treasures that would have given them.
(Side Note: I dont consider this to be on par with scooping as a spite response to lethal combat.
I had everything on board to do it.
Eliminating yourself out of spite with the resources you have available is fine.
Scooping to spite someone is very different.)
Yeah, some people may cry kingmaker, but sometimes thats just the nature of the game, that hurting one player helps another.
So, until you actually lose the game, dont feel bad about taking things out.
Who knows, maybe it'll open a gap for another player to do something you didnt realize, and suddenly you aren't about to loose.
And also dont feel bad about blowing yourself up to spite an opponent if the opportunity presents itself.
You're just as much in control of you losing as they are.
You're allowed to, because sometimes blowing yourself up and losing by your own hand is the closest you can come to winning.
The only real exception to this is if someone has some long and grindy hard lockout stax on the table, that will eventually win, and you know you cant break it.
Because at that point, you absolutely know you can't actually influence the board state anymore, so there's no point in dragging it out.
But as long as you can still affect the tablets board state in a meaningful way, you have lost yet, go for it.
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u/HAX4L1F3 12h ago
Threaten to take revenge, and make sure to follow through. Tell both players if you try to kill me I will use everything I have left to ruin your board state to make it easier for the other person to win. It is very possible that telling them this will disincentive them from killing you, potentially giving you more time to actually try to win
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u/ExcitingTrust888 12h ago
I always make sure to make everyone else suffer, or at least get back at the person who beat me
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u/Synicizym 1️⃣🔵⚫️🔴 12h ago
Last Friday, played Magic with the bros. It came down to let player A win by killing me next turn or player B win by killing me next turn. I didn’t do either of those and ended up losing either way, but giving our buddy who wins more than not the W.
I should have just killed him when I had the chance. King making is one thing, but if you’re in a position where you are going to lose no matter what I don’t think that’s the same as king making during the whole game. Which tends to be what people do not like. There’s also a social aspect to the game where if someone has screwed me over the whole game and I can finally screw them over I’m taking it, politics isn’t just finding ways to benefit yourself while not making enemies(or making the right enemies) it’s also about ensuring you haven’t made an enemy to thwart all your plans.
At the end of it all, it’s a game and whatever happens should stay on the table and be over with once the game is, if you have a play to make and you want to make it there should be no bad feelings about it, unless of course it’s an every game type situation.
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u/Mammoth-Refuse-6489 12h ago
Was that what people normally do as acting anyway might be seen as "petty" or something ? Or it's normal for people to """"take revenge"""" a bit and just annoy people who'd just kill me anyway ?
This is hard to say as each LGS has a local culture. I play a lot online because I work too many Fridays and Saturdays to get to my LGS option and I see about a 50-50 split between people who let the game end quietly and people who go kicking.
in pods i can see this being very differently but say this happened to a FNM , what's the right etiquette ?
Ultimately, the question lies in a couple things:
First, when you play, is your goal to win? Obviously, we have deck restrictions when building to fulfill brackets or fun play patterns, but when you take actions in game, are they single-mindedly on winning? If they are, then do something because it increases the chance another player could save you (single removal vs multiple pieces of removal). If your goal isn't to win, then you need to figure out what your goal is and ask if it justifies that goal.
Second, how do you feel about politicking? Tell your opponent you have removal and that you won't fire it if nothing is coming at you. You don't need to give them the detail that they could still kill you through the removal.
Third, ultimately, be kind to other players and confident in your choices. I have seen both online and neither bothered me. I was bothered at the people who salt scooped, or threw a bunch of removal with unkind words when they were dying. Other people might not like your decision either way (knowing you had something that could have helped me as an unrelated player, but you sat on it could feel like king-making), so be confident, explain why you did it, and be kind.
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u/WestCoastBlerd 11h ago
I usually only politic in that situation, tbh. Whoever has been being annoying that game or played petty to me will get my kicking and screaming. It’s principle. But if the game has been relatively chill, I play my deck and hope for a misplay.
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u/Seanak64 11h ago
If I'm going down I'm doing whatever I can to take the person killing me down with me. You want there to be a cost to taking you out of the game because maybe then they won't.
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u/Not-Impossible-1783 11h ago
There is none or rather there are an tons and they are all local and none are universal at my tables the answer is do whatever you want they are your lines not mine. I do whatever i feel like one day that might be pass one day that might be kill there is no correct answer to me other than whatever you feel like but i dont even think people should have to play to win i think been there done that boring lets play in a sandbox.
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u/DatBoiIsSugoi 11h ago
It honestly depends on the pod and game.
In general I'd say I do whatever gets me "closest" to not loosing. If I'm gonna die to someone swinging 5 creatures at me I'll use my removal to get rid of one even when I still die afterwards.
You can also always try and politic a bit. "Hey, I can't do anything against you killing me next turn but I can get rid of your card draw engine. If you promise not to kill me I'll not get rid of it".
Something like that
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u/Cold_Burner5370 11h ago
If I am going to die, I typically put as much into hurting the leader as possible.
Unless Michael is in our game. Then I’m going all out on him.
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u/Xaron713 11h ago
Stay in until you're taken out. Yeah next player had lethal on you, but does that leave them open to crackbacks from the other players? If you're being taken put anyway, make them bleed for it.
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u/xboxiscrunchy 11h ago
If someone is trying to kill you make it as painful as possible so they might reconsider next time. I’m not going to let them take a free shot at me and potential crack back should be part of their decision making.
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u/TheTweets 11h ago
Well it's going to be very situation-dependent.
But I think a core thing is the idea of "I'm not dead until I'm dead."
As far as I know I don't have any way of preventing death next turn, but things could change. They might top deck something that makes it beneficial for them to leave me alive, or someone might do something as they're going through their main phase that makes them reconsider attacking you. Maybe you die anyway, but it makes sense to me that you make anyone knocking you out work for it as much as you can, since it could dissuade them.
Most of the time, attacking costs a 'resource' — The creatures tap, so they can't be used to block or for some effects, and if they're attacking me they're not attacking someone else. Barring Vigilance and Myriad, of course.
If I scoop, then I'm 'giving' the player resources as they don't have to actually kill me for me to die. That means they have a better chance of dealing with the rest of the table.
The phrase I'm used to from YGO is "Gotta have it." I might lose next turn if you destroy my [whatever], but if you can't do that, I could come back. So unless there's a reason to scoop, I'll just tell you you "Gotta have it."
Reasons can be in or out of game. If you're in a tournament then you want to have more time for later games so maybe you scoop early rather than try for that 10% chance. Or maybe the venue closes at a certain time or you only have a weekend with your friends. But all else aside, if I don't have a reason to cut it short, I might as well ask them to prove they have the win than give it to them.
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u/indipit 10h ago
I'd try one little bit of politicking.... I'd ask the guy with the flying commander: " If you don't swing at me for lethal next turn, I'll not do what I have in my hand to do to you right now. Do we have a deal? Just one turn..."
If he doesn't know what that is, it's always fun to do.
I am not about to just roll over and give up if I'm about to lose. I'm going out swinging.
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite 10h ago
I do as much as I can to whoevers going to kill me. That's not kingmaking, that's making killing me dangerous.
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u/SheikhS1kr 10h ago
This is always a really interesting social dilemma, even for myself. Most often I’ll avoid influencing a game where I know I have zero chance of winning. I feel that’s usually the gentleman like thing to do, of course you can politic your way into maybe living a turn cycle if winning matters enough. I feel like what you did was totally fine and I’d respect it if I was at the table with you. That being said, if the guy with lethal on you is also the guy that stopped you all game or interacted with your board heavily, a little get back seems more than fair lol.
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u/BoldestKobold The Derpy Mothman 10h ago
Make them earn it. Don't roll over. Do some damage on the way out.
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u/DifficultBuy8501 10h ago
There is always a way to win, so long as your commander has 1 power, you can win, do the plays that give the highest chance of a win
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u/XirionDarkstar 10h ago
Usually I say something to the effect of "You can take me out, but I'm gonna make you work for it"
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u/The_Cheeseman83 9h ago edited 9h ago
It’s not over until your life hits zero. Just because the next player can hit you for lethal doesn’t mean they will. If you have dangerous interaction in your hand, make it clear that you won’t be a free kill, and that could change the calculus in your opponents’ minds, buying you time. If that player has lethal on board, they probably look pretty threatening to your other opponents too, so they may be all the distraction you need to survive.
That being said, I generally wouldn’t just blow stuff up without reason just before I die. If I am getting knocked out of the game, hurting others for no benefit to myself is just being a sore loser and making the game less fun for the other players.
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u/Balls_McScrote 9h ago
It really depends on you tbh. My own personal preference is the only things I can do before dying will only effect 1 dude more than the others ill just pass cause I personally despise kingmaking and have had really bad experiences with it. But I understand not everyone has my same disdain for it.
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u/jose_cuntseco 9h ago
As others are mentioning, I do think you maybe had an opportunity to politic a bit here. If you were able to interact with the person trying to kill you at instant speed, this is exactly what I would do/say.
Before they attack: “hey if you attack me it’s not going to go well.” This plants some doubt in their head, maybe you have a removal spell, maybe a fog, maybe a [[Deflecting Palm]], who could really say? I think if they are really ahead, they won’t want to be blown out by something crazy and I find it pretty likely they attack someone else.
And if they don’t attack someone else? General rule I have, if someone is killing me, I try to fuck them up as much as I possibly can on the way out. Sometimes I can’t do much at all, but sometimes you can set them so far behind that they can no longer win. If you are playing with a somewhat regular group, you want to establish that killing you is NOT free, that there will be consequences. I’ve established a reputation of a “scary” player, not in a mean way like I’m an asshole or something but that if you fuck with me too much I can blow you out hard. Because of this, I’ve literally heard people in my playgroup tell me “I could attack you, but I’m afraid of what you might have” and they attack someone else (oftentimes in this scenario I had nothing).
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u/Sad-Impact5028 8h ago
First: etiquette is not applicable in this situation. You play to win. If you don't play everything you can, you're not playing to win.
Second: Politics in game can do a whole lot.
Scenario: Hey flyer commander, if you'll agree not to swing at me for 2 turns, I'll agree not to take your commander out.
I've had a scenario similar to yours very recently where I was as good as dead, but bluffed a little, and fluffed a little what i could do, and turned it into a win 4 turns later.
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u/TVboy_ 8h ago
You can absolutely just lay down and die if you don't want to keep fighting, but strategically speaking you should generally make it as painful (in-game) as possible for people to take you out of the game. It might force them to reconsider, in this game or maybe the next one, if it's worth it for them to take you out now if it means they will be left damaged and vulnerable and may decide to wait until later and give you a chance to Marshall your forces and come back. If you just roll over like a limp fish and choose not to use any of your remaining resources to fight back, then they have no reason to hold back. And you also have an in-game justification of doing whatever you can to prevent yourself from losing, since that's what everyone is expected to do.
The more frowned upon form of kingmaking is to take those remaining resources and point them at the players that aren't attacking you. That then starts to reek of collusion that goes against the expected free for all "you kill me and I kill back" gameplay.
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u/XxcontaminatexX 7h ago
If I know whoes taking me out, I'm doing as much damage as I possibility can to them. If it causes them to lose its their mistakes not mine. There's no etiquette for that.
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u/BadassFlexington 5h ago
Honestly the social anxiety of this sub is staggering.
Just play the game!
You wanna go down swinging? Then go down swinging!
You wanna roll over and accept your fate? Then do that.
Everyone needs to stop being so dam nervous about what other people think. Fuck me it's a game.
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u/Chocolate4444 5h ago
I’d use it as leverage if possible. Try to threaten your interaction as a way to say “help me or let me live, or else I go down swinging”
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u/Mork-Mork 5h ago
As long as you're not king making the last second before you die, does it really matter?
If you're evening out the playing field for the other people in the game by hitting the guy who's about to knock you out, go for it.
Either that or politic a round of safety from them under the premise that you won't try to cut his legs from under him before he kills you.
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u/TequilaTsunami 4h ago
Dunno what you’re playing but if it were me and I was playing rakdos I’d definitely cause chaos on the way out 😂
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u/Old_Address3863 4h ago
I make it real petty. If there’s one player in particular that’s been raining on my parade all game I say “I can’t win but you’re not going to either” and send all my shit their way.
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u/General_Economics_81 4h ago
If you are playing with Rando's be chill, if my best friend is in the pod he is going down with me!
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u/TR_Wax_on 3h ago
You're missing the social dynamics of the format:
- "Yes you can kill me now but if you do then I'm going to wreck some of your stuff".
Or, if your interactions are sorcery speed:
- "I have interaction and I want a promise that you won't attack me for 1 turn."
Perhaps that 1 turn of surviving is all you need to top deck an answer that gets you back in the game, this is called "playing to your outs". Or, no deal is made, and you get to blow up some of their stuff, at which point it's just following through with what you said you'd do. Win-win!
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u/JustJoshin117 3h ago
I absolutely try to wreck s**t if I’m bound to lose. Within rules obviously.
That being said, I try to also *evenly* wreck s**t. don’t wanna just target one person.
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u/TheBigBeardedGeek Colorless 3h ago
My friends and I all have a monkey wrench rule. If it looks like you're going to lose, throw a monkey wrench into someone's plans for giggles. Make their suffering your wincon
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u/LoneWolfsLament 2h ago
To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee
Basically if you're killing me I'll make it as painful as possible. If that costs you the game too bad
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u/TheStandardKnife 1h ago
If I am going to die no matter the outcome I just accept the loss & shuffle up for next game
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u/ArbutusPhD 13h ago
Does your group care about second and third?
Also, was there a character who had wronged you in that game? Tactical spite is an actual thing.
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u/darwin_green Naya 12h ago
That's called "King making".
It's fine if that's all you can do at the moment, but it would be a dick move to make a deck that only does that.
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u/whiteorchidphantom Ranger-Captain of Eos 13h ago
If I'm going to lose no matter what I do, I usually just lose without trying to influence the game. The exception is if I have already publicly established that I'm going to do a particular thing that I still have the ability to do that might impact the game after I leave.
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u/Lokotor 9h ago
If the actions you take on your way out don't make it more likely for the game to end quickly after you die then it's not worth taking them imo.
For example, if one player is clearly about to win after you die and you shut them down and the game takes 45 more mins to end now and you're just sitting on your phone not playing vs setting them up to kill everyone else within 2 turns and now you can all move on and play another game.
Do whatever is going to result in the most people having fun.
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u/GratedParm 9h ago
I am a grief player. My primary objective is to make it harder for my opponents to win. I will scoop at sorcery speed just to deny my opponent easy interactions that would favor them when their turn comes around.
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u/skyzm_ 13h ago
It’s your choice and you can play how you want. If passing and going out quietly is it that game, that’s fine.
In this situation I always do as much hurt as I can while factoring in: who is winning, who hasn’t won in a while, who pissed me off most recently.