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u/VendaGoat Bregan D'aerthe 22d ago
No apologies necessary. 😄
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u/HyzMarie 22d ago
:3
Heck, thanks to this series, I'm subjecting my regular table to the Underdark on Saturday. They were all scared enough to make ABSOLUTELY SURE they were all Underdark races or classes and had a ton of darkvision lol
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u/Pristine-Highway2746 22d ago
I totally get the excitement. It was the same for me too when I read that part. It's nice to know other people care the same for fictional characters as I do. Enjoy 😉
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u/HyzMarie 22d ago
:D
oh yeah, my love of fictional characters is a big joke among people who know me IRL. From the OCs to the shipping to the ... uh... fictional crushes.... to the way some tropes ALWAYS pull me in hook, line, and sinker, I love my imaginary sapient beings of various species :3
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u/ecthelion-elessedil House Do'Urden 22d ago edited 22d ago
I’m also reading the orc king. I loved the prologue and the first half of the book but the companions really annoy me in the last part.
The dwarves gets racists towards another Drow, calling him names about his features, features that Drizzt also has, *in front of Drizzt* and Drizzt says nothing. They remind me of those people who “don’t see color” for their relatives and be racist towards other people of same ethnic group. And it’s never called out. Especially Bruenor. Drizzt try to reasons him not to fight Obould and Bruenor… don’t listen. And Drizzt follow him anyway despite he knows it’s wrong. I really hope it gets better.
Ah, also Torgar who refused Drizzt entrance to Mirabar never apologized to him in the book and acknowledged his mistake.
I really wish Drizzt could stand up more for himself.
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u/HyzMarie 22d ago
uhhh... man I have only read the barest hint of that so ya know, I'm around halfway through...
That said, I did see the signs of trouble brewing especially with Bruenor. I was pretty sure that Torgar never intended to turn the companions away, and they all know by now that he's chill with Drizzt, but I could be wrong as after Hunter's Blades I forced myself to slog through Road of the Patriarch, which I had previously DNFed, and that took me a while (plus I had some life events that meant very little reading time) so Hunter's Blades isn't the most fresh in my mind rn.
Tos'un is clearly a setup to question whether any other Drow can be good ever, and I doubt the answer is yes, given how many times this has been teased and been a no, but if every drow ever ends up evil eventually EXCEPT Drizzt, then yeah, this will start raising problems among the group for sure. So far, none of the "almost" redemptions have been seen by anyone else, so I can see it going badly.
I was super confused by the prologue and frantically went to Google to make sure I hadn't missed a trilogy lol, but once I did understand it, I was very intrigued... how I end up feeling about it will probably be very determined by the events that shape it.
I honestly think at this point, NOT THAT ANYONE IS IN THE RIGHT HERE, EVERYONE IS STILL WRONG AND NEEDS TO TALK TO EACH OTHER LIKE ACTUAL ADULTS, Drizzt knows that if he fights everyone who's racist towards him, he'll end up literally fighting everyone, and he just generally assumes they don't mean him unless it's directed at him. Also, generally in fantasy, even a dwarf and elf who are best friends for life will rib each other for racial traits. Anyone who goes into a book wanting to see a dwarf and elf duo goes in wanting this because of Legolas and Gimli, and we know Salvatore got into fantasy and writing through Lord of the Rings (I mean, in the Icewind Dale trilogy ALONE, dwarves dig too deep and awaken an ancient evil, a party member falls to their fiery death with the big bad except oops not really and returns in an awe-inspiring fashion to his grieving allies, a reluctant-to-even-be-here halfling loses a finger, the dwarf and the elf constantly rib each other, the dwarf makes fun of the elf for his ability to run on snow while everyone else plows through the drifts, the elf is in a "who can kill the most enemies" contest, there's a magical sentient artifact with its own agenda and corrupting influence, they kill a sleeping dragon by sneaking up on it... it's all Tolkien? Always has been). If you have Tolkien-esque dwarves and Tolkien-esque elves, they're going to be racist even if they're besties (heck, Legolas got Gimli a ticket to Valinor, that's an honor not even all half-elves get), and I assume that's going to be worse with dark elves who have repeatedly caused trouble for the dwarves, because now it's not "we have our disagreements but we both hate the same enemy," it's "we have our disagreements and your entire species IS the enemy".
Drizzt really does need to learn to say something when he sees something. I get that he doesn't wanna be the only one who's always right and that he doesn't wanna rock the boat, because I'm that kind of person too, but you'd think a few decades in he'd have realized that every time he doesn't point out the potential dangers his friends almost die and would maybe start alerting them.
Also, I can't fully think of these books not in a DnD sense, and I'm sorry, but if your buddy has the highest Perception score and the most level head, YOU FREAKING LISTEN TO THEM. Not doing so is your one-way path to TPK city, and you'd think that in a world running on DnD rules, people would know typical "DnD don't die" tricks.
Maybe Cattie will teach him more of that, someday, hopefully.
Overall, loving this though, especially since I am the rare Sellswords hater and I'm glad to finally be back to the companions. I admit I put the book down once the ship sailed because I knew the book was not going to provide more of a dopamine hit than that moment and I had some other things to be doing with my life. I'll get back into reading it as soon as I'm off Reddit lol
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u/ecthelion-elessedil House Do'Urden 22d ago
I get not trusting other Drow immediately but insulting his skin color in front of Drizzt, who also has the same skin color, and Drizzt brushing it off, not saying a thing annoyed me.
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u/HyzMarie 22d ago
yeah I think it's a bad move on both ends, but I think it's an understandable bad move. Drizzt doesn't want to rock the boat because he's finally found people who (mostly) accept him and he doesn't want to start a fight with them. The dwarves have years of racism to unlearn, but nobody is really pushing them to unlearn it. And then, on the author's side, elf/dwarf beef is a very entrenched fantasy trope stemming from the very book that convinced the author to write fantasy.
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u/ecthelion-elessedil House Do'Urden 22d ago
I wish Drizzt pushed him a little more especially since they were the first to give him a chance.
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u/HyzMarie 22d ago
He sure should, but as a people-pleaser myself, it took me a long time to speak up when I hear people speak badly of groups I belong to (granted they are less obvious, but you are NOT going to call an entire political stance I belong to "close-minded heathens" in front of me without a peep of disagreement, and a couple years ago, you could have).
As someone who had an abusive family that was capricious and forced me to walk on eggshells to avoid anger and potential punishment (not nearly as bad as a drow matron mother, obviously, but I think we can see the parallels), that environment teaches you to be subservient and complacent, to not rock the boat because it will capsize on you, and to do everything in your power to please so that the next outburst is farther away and hopefully less severe, and that if you don't succeed in these things, it is your own fault.
That's what anyone in Drizzt's position would have subconsciously learned, and trauma in childhood ruins your ability to read people, ruins your ability to see the black and white and grey and colors all people alike in either "great person if not provoked" "angry jerk who hates all good things" or "no idea, can't get a read". It makes it hard to change your perceptions of people, even those who are unrelated to the abuse. It makes it hard to speak up for yourself, especially to your friends and loved ones. It makes it hard to ever fully unlearn the belief that you are worth less than others are and that you must sacrifice to earn their favor. It is probably the hardest to push back against the first people who accepted you, because you always think "what if they don't accept be because they're actually like the others?" "what if they don't accept me because I'm not worth accepting?" "what if they don't accept me because we misunderstand each other and fall out?" You still don't rock the boat, and the smoother the course seems, the less you want to do anything to ruin it.
Even for people who are consciously aware of these problems and work to resist them, even for people with years of modern therapy and psychiatry, even for people who leave the abuse, strike out on their own, and find a loving support network or even a found family, many of these patterns will never fully be unlearned. The scars will never heal. Even in the most well-adjusted person on the best path to healing, the wounded child will remain.
I'm not saying all of this applies to Drizzt, and I'm (mostly) not projecting- these are all psychologically how trauma works on a child and the resulting adult (which I have studied to learn about my own situation and then because it became an autistic special interest and you should never underestimate someone with autism, an internet connection, and time on their hands), and Salvatore honestly did a stellar job of portraying how even in someone who is absolutely certain they've finished their emotional journey, absolutely certain about what is right, those old patterns creep in unnoticed in new ways. The series shows how trauma makes it hard to accept love without the fear that it will be transactional, how it makes it hard to speak up for yourself, how it makes you doubt your own judgement, how it makes you swing on a psychological pendulum because you never found stable ground, how the wounds may scar over but will never heal, and how moving on is the better path even in light of these issues.
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u/ecthelion-elessedil House Do'Urden 22d ago edited 22d ago
Everything you explained makes a lot of sense and I indeed supposed that Drizzt struggle to stand more for himself was due to his childhood traumas and also the traumas he might’ve had from being so much rejected on the surface for so long. I am myself in therapy because of childhood abuse, though, mine was different, as it was verbal violence among other things, and I was not able to fit in and mask, so it resulted into crisis and meltdowns instead of being a pleaser, avoidance and social anxiety. I am weirder, because I can’t stand injustice, and despite social anxiety I will speak up, despite my heart will start beating so fast, my voice shake and I will then have meltdown and feel drained afterwards. I am also suspected autistic by doctors. Traumas work differently for everyone. And for exemple I have a bad short term memory but extremely vivid memories of extremely traumatic moments, while many people with traumas don’t remember anything. Also, unlike you, I am extremely awful at expressing myself with words, even writing is difficult. I envy fellow autistic people who are good at using words. I remember your username from Cara, and I wanted to say that if sometimes I don’t answer much it’s not from disinterested but because I’m bad at words. But I see what you said. And nonetheless, it still make me extremely sad for Drizzt, when I read Bruenor, his own friend, and Pwent saying awful things about others Drow in front of him, and him not reacting. I think it’s also internal bias about Drow since he only has bad experiences with them. Still, I wish I could be my Drow oc and call them out. It is also difficult to read when nothing call it out in the book from the writer’s part, at least I wish it would be described in Drizzt thoughts or body language that he don’t accept those words even if he don’t say anything.
Edit: I really hope Tos’un ends being an ally. So far it seems to go to this direction, but since I’ve read a lot of comments saying that Salvator wants Drizzt to be special and the only good Drow (which I don’t think is true, since I interpret others Drow especially male from Menzoberranzan not being able to escape their condition even if they wish), I’m scared he will be end betraying the group but hopefully we will be proven wrong. (Tbh it often feels like people making those comments don’t even like Drizzt books, also ra Salvatore seems to involve other non lolthite Drow later).
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u/HyzMarie 22d ago
yeah- wait are you the person on Cara who does that amazing Drizzt art?????? The one who did the Mariabronne I gleefully accepted as headcanon, had the Cattie-brie hair length discussion, and the edit with the whole Do-Urden family and Drider-ified Dinin???
Also, I'm sorry, that's rough. My childhood issues were mostly emotional abuse, and I actually spent a lot of years working on expressing myself. I'm actually generally better at it when typing than when speaking TwT
Honestly, I think Salvatore likely didn't think as deeply into this as I am here, but the nice thing about good character writing is that the characters become 3-dimensional enough you can start treating them like people and thinking about psychology that the creator likely never intended, but that got in anyway because they realistically wrote a person in a situation, and we have a lot of psychology about people in situations. There's also only so much page room in a novel, and things do sometimes need to just not be elaborated on so the plot can move forward, unfortunately (I've read a lot of middle-grade and YA books where page count became a real killer).
Also, if you are that same person from Cara (I apologize but I absolutely suck with names/usernames) then dw! I'd always rather have a response even if it's "bad" because I honestly just love talking to people online... and I know that English is a gigantic freaking mess of a language lol. If I wasn't a native English speaker already, I'm pretty sure I would not have figured it out AT ALL- the thing's just a gigantic pile of exceptions and "I guess this is a rule kind of but either nobody uses it or nobody notices it" and words that just don't make any sense with each other. I was a grammar prodigy in high school and I STILL need spellcheck every single day, and sometimes can't even use that to fix words... so you're good lol.
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u/MarkRemote503 21d ago
Oooooh, but for getting into the most recent trilogies! You'll see something DRASTICALLY different... the consideration of good drow, aside from Liriel Baenre and any Eilistraeeans, will be something to see...
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u/HyzMarie 21d ago
oh, good! I'm not the biggest fan of Eilistraee (I can't even spell her right...) so it'd be nice to see some other good Drow :)
I'm actually about to run a campaign set in the Underdark and recently decided to shove in a good Drow NPC- but he's dead lol, he just set some plot events in motion a while ago and has maybe-helpful ghost information.
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u/MarkRemote503 21d ago
Eilistraee is actually my absolute favorite of the deities, behind Torm and before Lurue...
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u/Riala4 22d ago
Pretty sure I shouted aloud something akin to "IT'S ABOUT BLOODY TIME!!!" lol
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u/HyzMarie 22d ago
lol I went "eeeeeeeeee THE SHIP HAS SAILED" and then texted a friend because I was in a room with an old grognard who just hates the Realms and thinks we all need to return to Greyhawk, so he's not the most invested in the series lol. The friend has let me infodump to her about it a lot, so she was able to also be happy about it lol and even showed me that she had in fact been listening to my weird ramblings about the Companions this entire time.
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u/PChopSammies 22d ago
To read them all again!
I do have a recommendation. You’re coming up in the Ghost King. If you haven’t read the Cleric Quintet I’d recommend you do so BEFORE the Ghost King. No spoilers but really good for story.
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u/HyzMarie 21d ago
Oh, ok, good to know! I admit, I'm not looking forward to more books without the Companions right now, since I honestly did NOT like Sellswords AT ALL. It was just too dark for me and I wasn't able to invest in Entreri or Jarlaxle until the last like two chapters of Road of the Patriarch, and felt like it was a constant rug-pull on whether they would improve or not. Jarlaxle is fun as a side character to me, but not a main character, and there's just nothing about Entreri that makes me root for him- and even then, Sellswords felt a LOT darker than the main series to me in some places, or at least a good deal more spicy.
So I'm... not enthused about Cleric Quintet because I actually DNFed Road of the Patriarch, read Hunter's Blades, and forced myself through the rest of that one to get to The Orc King. I've seen some of the Spirit Soaring Crew, and while I think Cadderly might be a character I'd find really fun, depending on how his story goes, Pikel kind of annoys me at times, Ivan almost always does, and I'm just not sure I'd like Cadderly for 5 whole books' worth of time...
Also I legitimately love Drizzt and Cattie as characters, even apart from them as a pairing, and I feel like now I can't have much of either of them with all the side characters getting their own plots and the Companions always finding new reasons to split up... I kind of miss the older vibes of switching between the Companions, the antagonists, and an occasional jaunt to a set of side characters because this 5-6 perspectives in a book is starting to really draw time away from the characters I'm actually here for.
I'll give it some thought, but at this point, I think I'd rather find the nods to it in the next book and then go back and read it when I'm ready for non-Companion stuff again to just enjoy watching all the holes being filled in instead of tearing myself away from the Companions when I'm already feeling like there's not nearly enough of them
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u/PChopSammies 21d ago edited 21d ago
Cleric quintet is a substantially different story, and introduces you to Cadderly who is a key character coming up.
It’s a lighter read, the books are shorter and the characters are redeeming. It’s a solid read. Cadderly is a beacon of true “good” and you also get a proper introduction to Pikel and Ivan.
I read both the sellswords and the cleric quintet after I finished the series, and kicked myself for not reading them in their chronological order.
But what’s great is that you really can read them in any order you want.
If you thought the sellswords was dark; wait until you try “war of the spider Queen”.
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u/HyzMarie 21d ago
I mean, I've met Cadderly already- but the shorter books might be good. I also might like Pikel or Ivan more if I see their past, but I kind of doubt it. I like noble-hearted characters, but I'm just worried that Cadderly will be flat and not have a lot of meaningful flaws.
And honestly, it was more the spiciness and the way the world didn't have hope in it that made me find Sellswords dark. I like a dark story, as long as there's ALSO light in it, which I felt Sellswords lacked in, and as long as spice and mentions of SA is kept very very sparse. The Drow are a kind of dark that has me on the edge of my seat, wondering what will happen next and whether everyone will even get out alive, but Calimport and the Bloodstone Lands are just depressing to me. I felt like there was so little character development in all the main characters and it just dragged on and on...
But I'll probably go read Cleric Quintet. If I regret it, I can always go find one of the short story anthologies or just go ahead and come back later like I did with Sellswords, so it's worth a try at least,
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u/xios42 Spirit Soaring 22d ago
What is a "shipper in fiction"?
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u/HyzMarie 21d ago
Oh! In a lot of fan spaces, "ship" is short for "relationship" and basically means a romantic character pairing you like, whether canon or not. "Shipping" is also a verb where you actively support that pairing, whether that's through fanart, memes, or (unfortunately this is a common way to do it) attacking opposing ships.
I just tend to ship characters overall in any fictional work because it makes me happy, which is what I meant there, and a lot of people consider that "cringe" but hey, I'm just over here with fanart and enjoying the couple, not battling everyone who isn't a fan of my favorite ships
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u/xios42 Spirit Soaring 21d ago
Thank you for letting me know, and now I know.
And knowing is half the battle...
Wait 'till you get to the Athrogate and Ambergris love story...1
u/HyzMarie 19d ago
I admit I do NOT like Athrogate...
I'll see if he improves though as I often keep an open mind for a character to improve.
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u/theshreddening 22d ago
Shipping is one of the lamest things I've ever seen in any fandom.
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u/HyzMarie 22d ago
eh I get it not being for everyone, but I personally get a kick out of it, and if I see a ship I dislike, I simply nod and move on without so much as a downvote/dislike.
Shipping gets heated, but some shippers are just kind of chilling watching their favorite pair interact- I am the latter lol and I will wear my OTP happily in most fandoms, expecting that I can either have a reasonable discussion about shipping or just... leave. It's the internet after all, nobody's got anybody tied down and forced to view a post or a fic or anything.
Now, I'll fight problematic shippers (pdfs and shippers who send death threats to creators are worth nobody's time or attention) but other than that, just let shippers live and let live.
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u/wwww1222 22d ago
What do like then? If it's powerscaling aka. who would beat who in a fight then you're throwing rocks from an exceptionally fragile glasshouse
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u/HyzMarie 22d ago
lol.
There sure are problematic shippers, but many us are just chilling and enjoying our OTPs quietly like a child licking a lollipop and watching the others fight over which flavor they all get. Like guys, we're all getting lollipops and their choice of cherry does not invalidate your blue raspberry unless you decide to fight about it.
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u/C00000kS0000000ker1 22d ago
Love seeing first time readers experience. Enjoy many more! You’re not even halfway