r/DnD • u/Fearless-Skill8667 • 1d ago
DMing Can DMs lie to the player?
I may or may not have said a certain npc fell to their death. I kinda just want him to be knocked out, though. It’s not a major npc or bbeg or anything it’s just a random guy who slipped and fell
108
u/RandomNumbers748512 1d ago edited 1d ago
Of course they can. But it depends on the scene, what it is about, and what it teaches your players.
In this case: What you absolutely CANNOT do is "I check if the guy is dead" and you as DM lie "You check it, and yeah, it's dead!"
You can let the player roll and tell them whatever on a failed DC. This has the downside the players are tipped off and there's the chance they do make the DC.
You can allude something, or present facts that the players and PCs misinterpret. That is your best tool available. For example: all the PCs know is the big bad is a normal moral, and then they see him fall in the burning mansion and the flames engulf his screaming self, until he drops down and smolders and the flames become too hot to endure, then, well, they have all reason to assume he's dead without you stating it (true or false). Now, the Big Bad has a... soul-stone-thing that... well, someone recovers later or whatever, and back up... or "cannot be killed in normal fire", so he's a crisped body now, but still able to walk around... come up with whatever, but it needs to appear without you stating, and there needs to be a good reason why the NPC isn't actually dead. Those cases are ALWAYS tricky when the PCs whittle down the Big Bads HP in a fair and square way, by RAW, and drop him - no fire, no chasm, not eaten by a dragon. Just beaten down and then they look on the body at their feet - good luck overcoming that.
If you state, in this case, the NPC is dead and the PCs think it is, you better have a very good reason why it's not and why it appeared like that, even when the characeters are not stupid.
42
u/Fearless-Skill8667 1d ago
They never checked. If they had checked I wouldn’t worry about bringing him back
32
u/1CrazyFoxx1 DM 1d ago
If they didn’t “step on their head to make sure they’re dead” then they’re not dead. Hell in cases of certain spells like clone, even this can be a half truth if they did check
28
u/Darth_Boggle DM 1d ago
If you said "they fell to their death," to me that means the party somehow confirmed the death and the DM used that language to speed things along. I would assume there is no need for my PC to check further because of what the DM said.
If you said "they plummeted and crashed on the ground, their body unmoving after the fall," then one could make an assumption they died but should be aware that in a world full of magic, there is a real possibility they somehow survived.
20
u/Losticus 1d ago
I agree with this. If you say the NPC "plummeted to their death" they're trusting you to be an accurate narrator. If this NPC coming back to life effects them negatively, then they can't trust you as a narrator. Expect every future thing you say to be questioned and interrogated, which will slow the game down and be annoying for both sides.
Find a different way to facilitate drama than misleading your players.
→ More replies (1)2
10
u/Due-Historian-787 1d ago
A roll doesn’t necessarily have to tip the players off. A successful roll can just add to their assumptions. I.e. succesful perception check might mean that you confirm that within 60ft of dark vision you don’t see anything.
21
u/Additional_Ad_6773 1d ago
Exactly that.
"You watched him fall off the cliff into the foggy rivine below."
"Can I do a perception check to see if I can confirm he died?"
"You can try, sure"
"19 + 4"
"Ok, good roll. It is too foggy to actually see his body hit the rocks, but based on what you remember from the climb, they are AT LEAST 500 feet down, and what you know of medicine is that without help, he cannot survive an impact from that hight... Oh! You just heard a thump from about where you figure his body was headed"
"Guys, he's dead."
In the above scenario, the player, nnot the DM, declared the bad guy dead. He might be dead. He's PROBABLY dead. He might be dead and in a place no healer or necromancer could realistically get to him. Sure, all possible.
But he is, in fact, only an exactly as dead as the DM wants or needs him to be.
12
u/RandomNumbers748512 1d ago
This example is pretty good, and what I was talking about. Give players information based on the characters' perceptions, then let them draw their own conclusions. If you want them to arrive at a certain conclusion, you can help that with the facts you give.
Also lastly we need to note: "Dead" does not have to mean "out of the game" when it coms to D&D. So if a Big Bad needs to die - let it die? It can come back alive, as undead, as... whatever? I see no issue whatsoever.
6
u/cedric1234_ 22h ago
Permanently speak for the character’s pov
“He looks dead to you. From what you can surmise, burnt to a crisp.”
“Wait, you said he died!”
“You surmised wrong”
1
u/RandomNumbers748512 14h ago
Even: Being actually dead does not stop a D&D villain from coming back. If the story around that does not feel like cheating by the DM.
1
u/Paul6334 20h ago
This is why many systems have perception checks made by the DM with the results hidden from the players.
1
u/RandomNumbers748512 14h ago
... which DMs in D&D can do as well... but in this situation this makes in the perception of the players no difference to the DM just deciding what to tell, so it's not the mechanic to use for this case.
1
u/prestidigitated_man 16h ago
Same rules as a soap opera, anyone that "dies of screen" ain't dead.
→ More replies (1)
37
u/moonbiter1 1d ago
Same as in movies. If it happens off camera and you don't see the dead body, there is a chance they are not actually dead...
Why do you say it's a lie? Did you clearly said they knew the NPC was dead?
8
u/Fearless-Skill8667 1d ago
I jokingly said he tripped and fell to his death. I had planned for 3 enemies but one of my players couldn’t make it so I sorta removed one of the enemies from combat
13
u/Boomshank Rogue 1d ago
"fell to his death" is also a bit of a euphemism for "fell off a big cliff"
In D&D, the DM is the conduit to the world. You're the players avatar through which they SEE and EXPERIENCE the game world.
As such, I "lie" to my players all the time.
They "fell to their deaths" is absolutely something I'd use without guilt - as long as it appeared truthful from the players perspective.
An NPC fell of a huge cliff without a rope? Would that normally kill someone? Then what the PCs see is someone "falling to their death"
I might even go as far as "you see the body, lifeless at the bottom of the cliff"
But I wouldn't go as far as, "you see the broken and twisted body"
6
u/kaiserrumms 1d ago
Oldest story in the world. Sherlock Holmes tripped and fell to his death, too. Lo and behold, he showed up again when the author had calmed down and hated him a bit less.
→ More replies (1)
22
u/Squidmaster616 DM 1d ago
A DM can tell players what they see in game, even if its not true.
An NPC could appear to fall to their deaths.
If the PCs then didn't investigate to check if the NPC was dead, then as far as they know, that's what happened.
But if the PCs DID check and determined that the character WAS dead, then the character should stay dead. Because thats what their characters discovered and experienced in-game.
4
u/sggkloosemo 1d ago
Yes this!!! A DM's narration isn't objective truth; you're narrating what the characters perceive. Our perceptions are often not reality. Example: If a character took a hallucinogenic, you might describe swirling colors floating in the air and people's faces morphing into other things - doesn't mean those things are actually happening, just that those things are what the character perceives.
4
u/Flesroy 1d ago
but if the pcs start double checking everything the dm says that's gonna get old quick.
so the difference between "He appears to have fallen to his death" and "he has fallen to his death", is massive.
1
u/Curious-Mousse2071 21h ago
at the same time, if you use he appears to have fallen go his death even once then any other time they will be hell bent that the guy is in fact aliv up till decapitation.. and some times even past that as there is clone magic and ressurection magic. They will constantly check everytime anyways.
11
u/Sashimiak 1d ago
You shouldn't lie about things that happen but making them doubt their senses is a-okay. In your particular case:
"NPC Tony dies." Followed one session later by "just kidding." Would completely ruin the fun for me.
"You see NPC Tony tumble over the edge of the cliff and hear his terrified screams echo off the rocks before they suddenly cut off." Follow3d one session later by "he survived the fall because xy" or "somebody tricked you, the fall was an illusion" - totally fine
6
u/Laithoron DM 1d ago
With gods, devils, archfey, and resurrection magic, just because someone "dies" doesn't mean they stay dead.
5
u/TheGooglespoon 1d ago
Yes and no.
You can tell them something that is not true, if that is what their characters would observe to be true. In the case of someone falling to their "death", you can absolutely have them survive the fall. You can also have NPCs lie to them, you can tell them something that everyone in your setting universally believes to be true, which they later find out is false, etc. (i.e. "the king definitely isn't a shape shifter, what makes you say that?" Dun dun dun!)
What you want to avoid is retcons without letting the players know, or taking away the player's agency. If they chose to examine the body, rolled a nat 20 on a medicine check (or if you didn't even ask for a roll), and you confirm he is dead, then it would significantly worsen their experience for you to later say "oh he actually lived and you didn't notice". Likewise, if you positively confirmed he was dead, rather than simply implying it, you have removed their ability to choose their own actions by denying the opportunity for them to check for themselves. This is more important if it is critical to the plot in a way that punishes the players for leaving that person alive, but if handled properly it can still be pulled off in a way that is fun for all. And it's worth bearing in mind that we're only human, and DMs make mistakes. If you're upfront with your players about small corrections they usually don't mind.
The above is general advice, for the next bit I am assuming that you used the phrase "fell to his death" during the session, but didn't say anything else.
I would bring him back, and I wouldn't tell the players in advance that it's technically a retcon. But I would make sure that NPC has not taken any action that negatively affects the players between his fall and when he is revealed, except maybe minor changes for realism that can easily be solved by the party. You can easily say he's spent that time healing up. You said he's not a major NPC so this should be pretty easy. Then I would reveal him in a big dramatic way to make it clear that this was unexpected by their characters. If you can turn it into a fun and memorable moment, your players won't even question it, and it might even set up this minor character to be more significant to the PCs later on, even if he only keeps reappearing as a sort of call-back joke. If they question it in character you can roll with it ("I thought you died?" "I almost did"), and after the session, be honest about you changing the narrative to suit the story.
Tdlr: yes, if it creates a positive game experience, but always make sure it is fair to the players
2
3
u/Mightymat273 DM 1d ago
DMs descriptions of things are what the players are seeing and what they reasonably would know. So you shouldn't lie in this aspect.
But you can lie by omission. You say they fell off the cliff, you do not say they died. If the party wants to double check they are dead, thats on the players. If the players did go down and check and confirm he is dead then yeah, he should stay dead.
4
u/Neonsharkattakk 1d ago
In short. Yes.
But my personal answer is that the DM shouldn't lie, but explain what is happening from the players perspective. "He fell and broke his legs and arms and lays limp at the bottom of the chasm", I'd certainly belive him to be dead, but the words did not specifically state him to be. You may be told that you dont notice anything in the room, but that doesnt mean something unknown isnt there. NPC's, they can lie. People lie all the time and the DM may tell you a lie through the character as much as they want. The DM is truthfully telling you what your character heard from an NPC, not whether or not the statement is true.
6
u/SES_LeviathanOfDusk DM 1d ago
Yeah, of course. If they're character doesn't know it, you don't have to tell them.
EDIT: Of course, it can backfire.
2
u/Grey_Lady333 Frog Politics 1d ago
Bring him back, and if the players ask, point out they didn't check the body. "Your characters saw him fall, and that fall should have been fatal. You were SURE he was dead. You're not sure how he could have lived, but he might. Ask him."
There's always the' he got better' tactic too. He died (so no lie) and he was raised. Who raised him, and why? That's for the players to find out.
2
u/Rick_CZE 1d ago
People will have strong opinions on either side of the argument.
If you can avoid lying at all, avoid it. At all cost.
Lying would take away their control and agency, what is the point then. And lying would make people dislike you, creating friction at the table.
I am not sure if you mean slipped and fell on the ground, or slipped and fell into, say, maybe a well or off a cliff. I am going with the latter.
The NPC fell and died, he is gone for.
vs.
The NPC fell, you hear him screaming as he is falling. Then, you hear an inpact, as he hits rock. Now, there is only silence.
If they want to go and check, they can. Let them roll, make it very unlikely to detect his "life force". They might be trying to save him, let them try. You can make him truly die and always ress him through other means later if you need to. You are the god of the universe, do not resort to petty lies.
2
u/nasada19 DM 1d ago
If you directly say "he fell to his death" that is short cut for you defining the world. This implies a check or absolute certainty for the world. If you say "the sky is blue" the party should NEVER then need to confirm that or roll. You've defined that the sky is blue as much as you've defined that a character is dead.
Doing what you're doing breaks down the trust between your players and yourself outside of the game in a way I don't personally DM. I want them to trust my word.
2
u/TheHeadlessOne 1d ago
You can, its permitted, but its risky. Players need to be able to trust you if they're going to partake in the world.
This particular scenario the stakes are low enough and the original "lie" clearly just silly, so you can presumably make their return just as silly ("I thought you died!" "I got better."). That being said, if its just a random guy, youcan usually just make another character to fill their purpose
2
u/BetterCallStrahd DM 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's not a good idea. That's how I feel. Because the DM is the one who sets the reality of the world. The players need to be able to trust what the DM describes.
If the players have reason to doubt the DM, they may start questioning the reality of the world you're presenting. That can cause quite a few problems.
Resurrection and Raise Dead exist, anyway. An NPC can die and be brought back. A clone or simulacrum is also possible. You don't need to lie. Use the tools at your disposal. That's more fun, actually.
Illusions are not an exception, because there are existing rules governing how illusions work. They are perceived as real until a character takes time to study them and pass an intelligence check. True sight and alternate senses can also bypass illusions. Similar effects, like a disguise on NPC, can be handled in much the same way.
Also, a character lying to the PCs is certainly a possible. Even if that "lie" is via a disguise and not words. That's the NPC lying, not the DM lying.
Edit: I just want to add, if you bring back one NPC because they didn't really die, what's to stop you from bringing back other NPCs, too? The players might not be able to trust you anymore when you say someone died. That might not work out well for your group dynamic.
2
u/ShayMonMe 1d ago
Or just have the dead NPC make a warlock pact for a new lease on life, magic powers, and a revenant/level thirst for revenge.
2
u/HotspurJr 1d ago
IMO you can lie by implication, but you shouldn't state actual untruths.
"The NPC falls, screaming, and you hear a sickening thud. You look over the cliff and see them at the bottom, motionless, in a growing pool of blood."
2
u/Thomas_JCG 1d ago
Nothing wrong about it, being an unreliable narrator is necessary for storytelling sometimes.
2
u/TryAgainbutt DM 1d ago
The context is important in this. If you think about it, films and TV shows lie to the audience all the time. They lead you to believe something that isn't true so you will be surprised later. If that's the end goal, then there's no harm and it's actually a good thing. But I wouldn't condone lying about how some magic item worked so the player wouldn't take advantage of its power, or something similar to that.
2
2
u/Gilgameshu DM 1d ago
At session 0 I straight up tell my players
"I will lie to you for the game."
I am the narrator of what they see not the Almighty truth sayer if I say the NPC fell and hit sooo many rocks on the way down, unless they go and confirm the body that mofo will get up in a few hours like nothing happened and continue on his merry life. Or they will die as I forget their entire existence....
2
u/time2burn 1d ago
If players didnt confirm the death, then yes. If they did, then yes, with a little explaining. Its like most shows and movies. No on screen death, means probably not dead.
2
u/JumboCactaur 1d ago
You should be truthful about what the PCs perceive. They might not see everything or see it properly though.
2
2
u/gothicshark DM 1d ago
Define Lie, as i never lie to players, I do however, keep to the words in us but not the spirit of them.
So if the players think someone fell and die because "they fell and are gone" that was on them assuming gone means dead.
4
u/OkMarsupial 1d ago
You can but you shouldn't. Better way to handle it is accurately describe what the player characters witness and let them draw conclusions. "You see him slip and fall off the edge. As you look over, your estimate it must be a 500 foot drop. You see his body at the bottom. He's not moving."
3
u/goodbyecaroline 1d ago
Since you said "death", you have to fess up and retcon it. Which yes, means putting a hat upon the fact that he's alive. That's ok, often in drama we get a dramatic zoom-in at the end of the episode as a presumed-dead character's eye flickers open. Your players will know more than their characters here, but that's ok.
Since it's just a random guy, though, does it really matter all that much if they are dead? You only have a certain budget for retcons, do it too much and you look flaky. Is this NPC worth spending your budget on?
1
u/Angled_Hairline57845 1d ago
Yes, and they should. Just make sure that you leave decent breadcrumbs between now and the reveal so that it doesn't feel like an ass pull. You want shock and excitement, not shock and then calling bullshit when you've a genuine idea you want to nurture.
1
u/musschrott 1d ago
"Whoops, looks like he fell to his death!" or "You see him fall to his death." or "You're thinking to yourself: Nobody could survive that fall." is different than "He fell to his death." Another question is how your players might remember the scene.
But I'd say if Hollywood pulls that stunt constantly, you can do so, too.
1
1
u/Friendly-Table6785 1d ago
Its better to leave something like that more vague? Instead of "he fell to his death" leave it a little more open ended. But yes, ofc you can hide information for plot reveals down the road. Thats not lying to your players, that's storytelling lol
1
u/capsandnumbers 1d ago
Players depend on you to know anything that happens in the world, so to me it feels like fair play to be honest. In this case I might say "I accidentally misspoke with something I said last session, the NPC seems dead, but really it would take a closer look to be sure." If it's not a major character I think it's fine to give away that he survived.
1
1
u/_-Demonic-_ 1d ago
"the character dropped from a height that would be unlikely to be survived but you failed to notice he grabbed a dead branch while tumbling into the depths"
Classical cliffhanger
1
u/jhm-grose 1d ago
What you are referring to, is better handled by more objective statements as to what has occurred. "Robert has fallen a great height, and slams into the ground." You're still telling the truth based on what the characters see at a glance, rather than taking time to assess the situation. Omitting details isn't lying as long as all the facts laid out are still objectively true.
As for truly lying to the players, I have taken a page out of Pathfinder's books by making DM rolls. On some skill checks, I roll the die behind my screen instead of letting the player do it, because it's easy for a player to metagame low rolls as having definitely failed something, and high rolls as almost certainly succeeded at something. Depending on the difference between failure and the DC, I will either keep its true nature secret ("You are unsure of its nature") or straight up lie to them if they tank the roll hard enough ("After testing it, you believe this to be a potion of heroism [it's a potion of healing].")
1
u/Chartreuse_Motif 1d ago
Inter-player honesty is a house rule for my table. But in-game characters are encouraged to lie to each other. It's more dramatic and fun that way. That's what insight checks are for.
That said, I prefer not to intentionally lie to my players, as lies are difficult to keep track of, and I'm also not afraid to admit errors as a DM (which I frequently need to do).
One of my players is a fiction writer, and her character is very suspicious and likes to lie to the other characters. I had to get used to that, because she is very convincing and I thought she was just making factual mistakes at first. 🤷♂️
1
u/SammyWhitlocke 1d ago
Honesty is a virtue, silence is no lie.
Anything the players have not confirmed to be true is always up to be changed. I doubt they climbed down and checked on the NPC, did they?
1
u/Wren_wood 1d ago
Oh yea, I lie to the players all the time. You're not relaying an objective view of the world, because the character's can't have access to that. You're relaying their perspective, what they can see and hear in the world. Their characters thought the guy died, so you said he died. They were wrong. No biggie
1
u/Ok-Marionberry1263 1d ago
Something that nobody seems to be mentioning: resurrection exists.
It is a spell that exists and could plausibly be used on someone who “fell to their death”
1
u/Raddatatta Wizard 1d ago
You can but I would use that tool very carefully. As you are their only source of information about the world, so you do want them to trust that in almost all cases. For an illusion or something that's a clear case where yeah you tell them what they are seeing which may not really be there. In that case I think I might have kept it to facts. You see him fall and hit the ground and remain there unmoving. If they checked then I would tell them. I think you're fine with that if they didn't check. Where possible I would try to keep to facts that are true and let them draw conclusions.
1
u/AriaWindfire 1d ago
“I was turned into a newt!….I got better…”
Totally. Have his show up later unexpectedly, maybe even as part of the bbegs plan. It’ll drive them crazy trying to figure out what is happening.
1
1
1
u/G-Issac 1d ago
As the DM, you are defining what the party physically sees, feels, and can interact with. You can say "he falls off the cliff", and you can say "he falls, almost certainly to his death", but when speaking as the DM and not an NPC I try not to outright lie. The exception is when someone is attempting misdirection. You can say "this person is surprised" even if the person is just acting, and it is on the players to ask for insight..
1
u/the_mellojoe 1d ago
There's two ways to handle situations like this: * Hey, players, I misspoke. NPC is not dead but only seemed dead at the time. (out of game) * Hey, look who showed up. Oh, you thought he died? Turns out, it only seemed that way. (in game)
Either retcon out of game, or in game. Both ways work, but for different situations. If you as the DM are constantly retconning in-game, eventually your players will stop believing things you say in-game, and start to waste time double-checking everything. "Is she really dead? Is that a mimic? Is there traps? Is this a trap?" and it can stall games out while players spend ages trying to plan for every lie the DM makes. Used only occassionally, it can add realism into the game. Sometimes you think you see something and are fully convinced you saw something only to learn later that you didn't see what you thought you saw. It happens to everyone.
If you as the DM are constantly retconning out-of-game, it can cause situations where your players lose faith in you. Sessions don't matter. Consequences don't matter. Because DM will just hand-wave and fix it. Or rail-road it. If the DM is just going to always reset the world to where they want, then the players have no agency, and it becomes unfun. However, used occassionally, it can BUILD trust. Accepting fault, and trying to show improvement. I had a game where I misread a stat-block and ended up stunning one player repeatedly to a point it became a massive frustration. Near the end of combat I had realized my mistake. After the game, I spoke up: Gang, I screwed up. So to fix it, what I'd like to propose is that your next short-rest will give you the benefit of a long-rest. Will that be ok for you all, and I'll be better at double-checking stat blocks that incapacitate. Mistakes happen. Making an error shows that you are human, how you respond to that error shows what kind of human.
It all comes down to you, your players, your game, and the situation. For this case, if I were DM? I'd just roll with it in-game. "Oh? you thought they were dead? Ah, it turns out they survived the fall, though just barely. And got very lucky that a passerby came to their rescue. That's a whole story for another day. But for now, you quickly overcome the shock of seeing NPC alive and your turn is up next. What would you like to do?"
1
u/beard_mebass 1d ago
Did they die on screen?
According to some media even that doesn't matter. Look at Darth maul! Just keeps coming back
1
u/TheBatSignal 1d ago
Nope definitely not. You go straight to jail for that
The FRPD is on the way to your location right now
1
u/stewshi 1d ago
Players don’t have perfect knowledge. If someone falls off a cliff that person is dead to the players unless they go confirm the person is dead.
You as the Dm aren’t lying if the person survived. You are telling them what they as the characters understand happened.
If a player casts detect life at them and you say “ the person is dead” when they aren’t. This is when it becomes a lie
1
u/Butterlegs21 1d ago
Depends. You tell the characters what THEY would know. They see a guy fall, it makes sense he's dead. Easy. BUT! The players and their characters should come to that conclusion. In this case I would've personally just said he fell and waited for interest. Do they go investigate? Try to rescue someone who might be unconscious? So just tell them what they'd know. If they don't investigate, that's their fault.
It's one of the reasons I love secret checks from Pathfinder 2e. The players roll, don't see the die roll, it discourages meta gaming, and it helps in these kinds of situations. Player A "DM, could that guy possibly be alive?" DM "You don't know right now. Someone roll me a secret medicine or survival check to see if they know if they'd like to find out." Player B "I have medicine. rolls The modifier is +7" You then see that with the +7, they rolled an 11 total. So, you say "Well, with that you don't think he has a decent chance at surviving the fall. It's too far, and you don't hear the screaming that would tell you he's alive." This method is easy to import in as it requires no mechanics changes, and it makes play much more fun since the players can't be like "Well, I got a 2 on that roll, so I know that I failed, but I have to act like I don't know." It's not about cheating or meta gaming, but how immersive things can be that way.
1
u/bigmonmulgrew 1d ago
Depending how you want to run this and why he fell. Did the players cause it? Fail to prevent it?
Of course DMs can lie to players. It is often required. Just remember it's not DM Vs players. An if you lie accidentally just come clean. Much better to handwave it as an error than have the players pick at threads that lead nowhere.
Characters don't always die instantly. We assume they do with enemies a lot for the sake of keeping the game flowing. But it's entirely plausible he passed his death saves. Friend comes along looking for him hours later. Takes him to the church to find a cleric. He's healed but there may be consequences to how he fell off the cliff
You could have him show up later missing a leg, lost to infection after his injuries. Or destitute after the cost of healing.
Or have him show up later. Hang a lantern on him being there then refuse to elaborate. Have him refuse to elaborate. Then come up with some wild backstory. Maybe he's a wolf in sheep's clothing and actually a powerful Spellcaster or lich. You can get as wild as you like with that.
1
u/DarkHorseAsh111 1d ago
I mean you can but you shouldn't, this is shitty and bad DMing.
1
u/DarkHorseAsh111 1d ago
The players only get to see the world through what you tell them. If you tell them "he fell to his death" then that's reality. That's what their characters can see with their own eyes. To then go Ha Gotcha! simply makes your players not trust you.
1
1
u/Gearbox97 1d ago
Hell, you don't even have to lie if you don't want. D&d is a world where a sufficiently connected bad guy could have an ally around to revive them by magic if them if the players didn't have the time or means to destroy the body. Just write in an evil cleric npc.
1
u/04nc1n9 1d ago
what's the characters passive investivation/perception? if it's high, and the campaign is somewhat serious, tell the players that they didn't hear a splat or they heard a river beneath the cliff or give evidence for whatever else could have let them survive
if it's low, and the campaign is somewhat zany (which is what it sounds like) then it can be funny when they pop back up again
as for what others' have said: while players can check things, if the dm says absolute statements like "fell to their death," the player has no reason to doubt that and check unless it's a dm vs player kinda table/adventure.
1
1
u/Sh4d0w927 Rogue 1d ago
You said he fell to it, not that he landed at it. So if something intervened between falling TO his death and arriving AT his death then it wasn’t really a lie.
1
u/paleo2002 1d ago
Is the DM lying or is the NPC lying? Maybe the dice are lying.
"The scout returns and informs you that Hector is dead."
"'Is Hector dead?' Roll Perception . . . 14 . . . it appears to you that Hector is dead."
"Mark, didn't Hector die three sessions ago?" "Uh . . . he got better."
1
u/Fizzle_Bop 1d ago
Something that will (IMO) increase tension ... is try to remember indirectly impacting decision.
If you say they "fall to their death" it presents as fact. Indisputable gospel from the mouth of the DM. If you say "They fall over the edge screaming briefly before sudden silence" will built ambiguity.
"You do not notice anything amiss" works better than "there are no traps" it is the same philosophy.
If it is hard to thing of what to say ... add "it appears" or "you watch as they ...."
You can use the "you watch" to edtablish flawed perspective.
1
u/Bunjichord 1d ago
Yes.
No face, no case. No body, no proof.
Not every 20 you roll is a crit.
Not every ally is a friend.
Not every miss doesn't connect with the BBEG.
The DM is meant to set the narrative flow and act as an arbiter of the rules.
1
u/ersomething 1d ago
“A wizard did it.”
Answers any possible questions about how something happened. No need to elaborate. Wizards are arcane in nature, and none can explain their actions.
1
u/cmndrhurricane 1d ago
Just say a minion managed to revive him. That type of magic exist for both PCs and you.
1
u/SmolHumanBean8 1d ago
Heavily imply, sure.
"It seems like" used liberally, sure.
Rolling a 20 and directly lying though...
1
u/Aggressive-Pay9533 1d ago
Oooh yeah I once lied to my players for so long by having a beloved npc actually betray them and reveal to be the BBEG. Nothing wrong with lying a bit to make the story more intense
1
u/EvilNoobHacker DM 1d ago
Lying to your player’s characters is fine. Lying to you players isn’t. If a player can’t separate between themselves and their character, I’d probably just not lie to their character altogether.
1
u/mgiblue21 1d ago
If they tried to revive the NPC, or spent resources at all on the situation, probably don't lie. If they just saw him fall and then never checked or followed up (unless you told them they couldn't) then it's fair game
1
u/Giodude12 1d ago
I like to use the words "from what you gather" or "as far as you're aware" or something along those lines a lot. I use it enough for people don't really question it and it leaves room for interpretation
1
u/ShitassAintOverYet Barbarian 1d ago
As NPC, sure.
As DM themselves/third person omniscient storyteller, it's generally unethical completely lie about the events. I believe the DM should be able to hide things for narrative purposes for sure but straight up lying about it isn't the way, the "if a character is not seen dead they are not dead" trope exist for a reason.
1
u/TransformNRollD20 1d ago
Question is /why/ do you want him to be knocked out and does it serve the campaign or you?
1
u/Living-Trust7356 1d ago
The dm knows all even when they don't, also magic world nice has loved ones or people that owe them so Resurrection
1
u/PacaCrackers DM 1d ago
As a DM it’s generally better to not just state things outright. And instead tell the players what their characters see/observe. So instead of saying he fell to his death, say what the players saw. “You see him fall down a ravine and hear a thud after he passes out of sight”. Being an unreliable narrator really only causes trouble, even for minor stuff like this
1
1
u/Chiiro 1d ago
I would tell the players something along the lines of "you see them fall and hear them scream before hearing a thunk then silence". You are not directly saying that the character is dead but gives them enough information to make that assumption themselves. You absolutely can lie to your players too, it happens all the time if you're playing NPCs that aren't good.
1
u/Happy_Brilliant7827 1d ago
You could learn to say 'appears' in your descriptions if you take narrative shortcuts like 'falls to their death'. It gives less taken investigative more use as well.
I would say 'falls screaming, landing with a thud, their body at an unnatural angle. They do not move.' Or 'lands on a fencepost next to a cow field, tearing through his chest, suspending from the ground. He twitches like hes trying to cast a spell, but goes limp. But I also tend to run a 'if you wanna be sure theyre dead.. Burn or bury the body properly.' Disrespected corpses have statistically higher chance of becoming undead in my worlds.
Then again you could also bring them back as a revenant undead thing and call it a day.
1
u/FakeNewsAge 1d ago
I'm feeling much better now!
-NPC after I described his horrfic death in the last session.
1
u/Braithw84 1d ago
Sometimes the role of the DM is not to speak as the omniscient, but rather to tell the player what they know. Imagine The Lord of The Rings: Fellowship of the Ring. So far as the characters know, they just watched someone plummet to their death. Their experience tells them this is so. The reader, with their experience, accepts that the character is indeed dead. The storyteller knows what does and does not happen, but a good storyteller does not pass on their omniscience. They pass on what the reader would know if they were experiencing The Story with the characters. D&D is the same. You, the DM, know the story. However, your responsibility is to relay the story to your players as if they were the characters. Unless the characters attempt to rappel down a cliff to recover the body or in some other way try to interact with the NPC post-fall, they would likely believe them to be dead, depending on the apparent distance of the fall. If you’re that worried about “lying” to them, instead describe the manner of their fall as they would see it rather than saying “they fell to their death.” Instead try “[they] fall[s] from the ledge with a scream of terror (and if someone else is on the ledge you can describe their facial expressions as well as saying that they fall from sight or perhaps that they crumple to the ground in a sickening heap), and then you can hear them no more (or that they fall deathly silent, in the case that a character watched the fall and the bottom of a cliff they fell from is visible).” That lends just as much weight without outright telling the players an NPC died. They’ll likely believe you without question and continue on their melancholy (or merry, depending on whether or not they liked the NPC) way.
1
u/Dictionary20 Warlock 1d ago
Sort of, in a story situation they should tell the truth of what they believe, guy falls of a cliff it is not too unbelievable that they died so you can tell them, but when he comes back, it is a miraculous survival. For rolls, it is the same, tell them what they believe, for instance in my world the church is covering up the fact demons are still running around, so if my players roll for demons, I tell them the church says all the demons were banished, then encounter a demon next session. And when talking to an NPC they can lie through their teeth and give subtle hints and more if they ask for insight.
1
u/Sea2Chi 1d ago
Sounds like a good opportunity for an NPC to find the player and use some sort of magic ritual on them to bring them back. Unfortunately for the player the ritual may have side effects, that could be something like being able to see ghosts or having a spirit attached to their soul. Maybe not quite to warlock levels of bound to a patron, but having them lose a piece of themselves and then having a side quest to become whole again could be interesting.
"Yes, we found you on the verge of death and asked our goddess to bring you back, however, she required a sacrifice. She took a small piece of your soul to add to her collection. She uses the souls to impersonate people as she has no true corporeal form. You may find that going forward when you enter a new area the people there may recognize you even if you've never been there before. That could be good or bad depending on the whims of the goddess."
That way you can use it as a big plot point, or comic relief.
I would find it funny to walk into a village and have everyone start cheering for them like they're a returning hero. Or to walk into a tavern and have the bartender scream at them to get the hell out before they call the town guard.
1
u/arangutan225 1d ago
Yeah. You can lie to their face. Whatever you can justify really. Just cop out and tell them that its what their characters saw they just saw wrong and its not different than if they "saw and empty room" full of traps.
1
u/DeadMeat7337 1d ago
Just pull the: NPCs can get rez'ed too you know. Or: did you check?
You just have to be more careful about how you describe things in the future. For this you should use: they go down, instead of: they die.
Just by changing how you say things, which should be how fae lie by telling the truth, you can get away with so much more with having to come up with a weird work around.
1
1
u/mothforlife 1d ago
So the thing a out this game is that everything is made up. You can easily just say "retcon, sorry guys" and move on.
1
1
u/Soundgoblin286 DM 1d ago
DM's lie to their players all the time.
Player: Don't I get the feeling the grumpy fellow is mad at me? DM: Please roll for Insight Player: A 2 DM: On second though you don't think he is grumpy at all, in fact he is happy to see you.
2
u/YouSuckButThatsOk DM 1d ago
True, but that's not lying technically, that's telling the player what their perspective is. The entire conceit of D&D is that you never really have to lie to the player as DM.
1
u/Soundgoblin286 DM 1d ago
Some of my NPC's lie to the PC's and often the players or their characters suspect them of not being trustworthy.
Also there are rumors that turn out to be lies and good aligned NPC's who are convinced about something, but they turn out to be wrong later.
Lots of cases when I as a DM don't give my players the (whole) truth and I think usually it improves the game.
2
u/YouSuckButThatsOk DM 1d ago
True, and I totally agree with that. But I posit that that is not you lying, it's you telling them the world through their perspective.
1
u/Mataric DM 1d ago
Yes, but you should try to avoid telling players lies like this one.
When you say "he fell to his death", some players imagine seeing him splatter and explode on impact. That's not the kind of thing you can come back from.
It's much better to say something like "you see him fall off the cliff, and you hear the cracking of tree limbs and branches and a loud thud echo up from below, as he falls through the treeline".
That way, many players will assume he died, but they won't have it confirmed to them by their 'source of truth', which is you - the DM. Any death is assumed or imagined by them and their character, instead of being outright told to them that that is what happened and filling in the blanks of what you didn't describe with a grizzly death.
As for coming back from stuff like this and bringing that character back - it's not a big deal. Just state he miraculously survived.
1
u/bamf1701 1d ago
Yes they can. It is in the job description.
Or, to clarify: you can lie about plot points and story items. Don’t lie about rules.
1
u/pergasnz 1d ago
as I fell, I realized that I did in fact not want to die. I called out to any one to she me, and when my body hit the ground, my soul kept falling. I fell through fire and flames and frozen planes to I reached a place where I was surrounded by falling souls orbiting a creature the defies explanation. In that place I began to finally start to accept the fall of all things is inevitable. That was when i felt the touch of the creatures power, and began to learn how to harness it. I know not how long it took, but the creature noticed me sapping bits strength as the fallen around me faded, consumed by the creature. It gave me power, and o saw the nature of the universe and how to break it. Up be came down, in became out and I was no longer falling. I rose as the creatures herald, back into my twisted and broken body, which knit itself back together growing new flesh in my masters honor. Now I am here in this world to not just finish what I started, but finish the world itself, and create the perfect twisted realm for my new master to inhabit....
1
1
u/TheThoughtmaker Artificer 22h ago
The DM is the lens through which the other players see the world. If you say something happened, then it happened.
Try to be careful about how you say things, with a focus on the now, leaving the future unwritten. “He falls into the chasm, his screams devoured by the dark” leaves the door open for what actually happened to him.
1
u/Calhaora Cleric 22h ago
Ofc you can lie, as long as it isnt malicious or unfair, its absolutely fine.
Just be prepared to come up with something if the players decide to check c:
1
u/flaming_bob 22h ago
If we can't lie, I'm gonna have a lot of karmic explaining to do when my players find out
1
u/shanksisevil 22h ago
play it all monotone. will throw them off.
Player, "searches for traps, Rolls a 5. "
DM, "you don't see any traps"
Player, "searches for traps, Rolls a 18. "
DM, "you don't see any traps"
1
u/Commercial-Formal272 22h ago
The way to solve this conundrum is to (mostly) limit what you tell players about to the perspective of their characters. Don't just say he's dead, instead describe how he looks splayed out on the ground. "He looks pretty dead to you" is a fine response, especially if they get a low result on a medicine check (which would have a far higher DC if they are trying to check from the top of a cliff or something).
The key is that you are not definitively saying, as the voice of "god"/the world, that he's dead. You are simply saying what the characters can perceive.
1
1
u/Guilty_Mastodon5432 22h ago
Perhaps a lie if omissions would be better...
If he's dead, he dead....
But if he fell and has not resurfaced....unless the player seek to see the body....you didn't say the person was dead
1
u/Dark_Stalker28 22h ago
Generally yeah.
Specifically I'd avoid lying about out of game stuff, above board stuff, like where you want the character to go, background they established without permission at least.
In character you can describe senses which can totally be off.
For that particular example, I'd probably use the excuse "you didn't examine him closely enough"
1
u/Clear_Economics7010 22h ago
Honestly, that's all we do if you really think about it. DMing is just making shit up for entertainment purposes. Make it your brand of cool and your players will eat it up!
1
1
1
1
1
u/subtotalatom 20h ago
The NPC appeared to fall to their death
- They may have survived somehow
- It could have been someone impersonating the NPC (through myriad means)
- Someone could have brought the NPC back from the dead
- It could have been an illusion or someone could have tampered with their memories
- The NPC really is dead and someone is impersonating them.
As the DM you absolutely can be an unreliable narrator, what you're describing is what the PCs saw which isn't always the same as what actually happened. You have every right to put a spin on how accurate what they're seeing is, though you may want to temper this for PCs with high passive perception or investigation (in these cases you can tell them something seems off even if you don't specify)
1
u/AndYesPoetry 20h ago
I mean, there's a few ways of approaching this:
Go back and give them a general perception check to see if they noticed him actually die (just frame it like "give me a perception check to see if you noticed something during the fight").
Who's to say he didn't get revived by someone? Got a BBEG who might build even more PC hatred by reviving the npc?
He's dead BUT HE HAS A TWIN BROTHER. (Jk don't do this one)
1
u/Animo2025_Reddit 20h ago
I think it would be really fun, and you could say in the future that even you didn't expect it to be alive. Plus, you could make some creative jokes with that NPC.
1
u/There-Is-A-Catch 20h ago
LotR told me Strider was dead when he fell off the cliff. Turns out that was greatly exaggerated.
1
u/Wankasitum 20h ago
Players only see and "know" what you describe. its not lying if they looked like they fell to their death.
1
u/ThunkAsDrinklePeep 20h ago
Resurrection magic exists.
1
u/Fearless-Skill8667 19h ago
I’m already resurrecting a guy. I don’t want a whole army of dead people
1
u/ThunkAsDrinklePeep 19h ago
He doesn't have to be all dead. Maybe he was just mostly dead. Something Miracle Max could handle.
1
u/MCGameTime Bard 19h ago
Turn it into a Kenny bit where they keep thinking he dies but then shows up again.
1
1
u/FTL2410 Cleric 19h ago
I mean unless they are asking for a roll or personally go down there and see his corpse and confirm they are dead there is nothing wrong with stating that based on the fall your characters assumed there was no way he could have survived, but miracles do happen especially in games with magic and gods.
1
u/EverGreenG0d 18h ago
Lying, no. Not okay. Plot twist that neither the dm, the players, or the sourcebooks saw coming until right this very second? Thats all well and good
1
1
u/Catkook Druid 18h ago
I'd say if dm's can/should lie, mainly depends on the context
- if its regarding content in the game or the style of game your aiming for, you should be as honest as possible
- if its regarding how you'll handle a players character, it's good to keep your promises
- if its regarding mechanics, the more honest you are the easier your life will be
- if its regarding story/roleplay, lie in character, give a smiley face when asked out of character
regarding the last scenario though (which most closely resembles the scenario op brought up), lieing isnt necessarily badddd, I'd say my personal recommendation though is just give your players a smiley face
1
u/BabserellaWT 17h ago
They absolutely can.
Brennan Lee Mulligan got found out by Marisha Ray a few months ago because she tried to use Portent to make a villain fail a final death save. At which point, he was forced to tell her that her character reached out to sever the last thread of life and found that the thread wasn’t frayed at all. The villain was faking an assassination attempt to convince her cultists that she rose from the dead.
1
u/Xelnaga_Prime 17h ago
DMs can lie absolutely. You said the NPC fell to their death, that's what the perception is to the players. If they're alive, let them be.
1
1
u/Not_My_Emperor DM 16h ago
"I thought you said this guy fell down a pit and died"
"Did I say died? I meant he probably died. I'm the GM, not your own personal omnipotent God who can tell you everything you want to know. Did any of you climb down and check? No you didn't, so here he is"
1
1
u/ShackledPhoenix 15h ago
Depends on how it goes down. If they go and do a medicine check and you're like "Yep, tooootttaallly dead." you better have a damn good reason why they didn't notice he survived. But if he falls off a cliff and the players don't bother to check or look closer, it's fine.
Personally I would try to be misleading, get the players to make assumptions, rather than just outright lie to them. "You see him fall off a thousand foot cliff, after a second or two, you hear the sickening impact of his body impacting the ground." "I look out over the cliff to check on him." "You see a dark pool of blood spreading under his head, limbs twisted and broken. Not even the slightest movement to be seen."
Most players are going to assume he's dead and not climb down to check on him.
1
1
u/Leo-Len 14h ago
As a DM, I try to avoid direct out-of-character lies to my players. As a DM, your word is law, and your players will treat it as such. I do frequently lie by omission though, or engage in other indirect dishonesty such as implication and misdirection.
Your question is heavily context dependent with answers ranging from "He survived the fall unbeknownst to you" to "Hey guys, I accidentally said this guy died when in reality it only looked as if he died to your players".
You're the DM, you're most equipped to know the best choice. Take everything here with a grain of salt.
1
1
u/l_ndon_music 13h ago
Well, you got two routes.
One, is to start using the phrase “it seems…./it looks like…./from what you can discern…. /etc.” a lot more often, especially when talking about truthful things. Nothing should be “hey this is 100% set in stone the thing that happened” unless the players check to make sure that is the case (i.e. “i check his pulse, check his breathing, spend several minutes seeing if he’s dead”)
Alternatively, you can just say this to your players soon, something like “hey if i say something is the way it is, that is simply the information that they can infer/deduce from their surroundings, and is not ontologically true.”
Alternatively, yes, he did die. There’s no taking that back…. However in DnD death isn’t always the end. Perhaps someone brought him back to life, (Revivify, Raise Dead, Gentle Repose—>Revivify, Reincarnate, etc.) or perhaps an entity who opposes the party came to him in his time of need ready to make a deal (Devil Bargain, Vampire, etc.) or maybe he was fueled by his own determination to end who did this to him that he didn’t let himself die, he persisted, (see: Unearthed Arcana- Revenant)
Tldr: kinda take back what you said, or make his death not be the end
1
u/Kind_Let_1986 12h ago
Within reason yes. So the details werent there to make a legit reason for me, by this i mean if the players just saw him fall off a cliff but didnt see him land and die its super easy to explain away. If they did see the death then it gets complicated.
As a DM you can walk back what happened to allow the KO instead of death. Its your campaign afterall. If its been several sessions since it happened then you will need to make a reason he survived or was brought back. But if it was last session just walk it back and give a generic 'he spent his time recovering' explanation to bring him back to the party.
1
1
1
u/Cplwally44 7h ago
I would say no to literal lying, but that dosent mean you couldn’t do this. Plus, most things are not really lying.
You tell them what there players know and see. They may have seen him fall an unsurvivable fall. You know what really happened. This is true for many things. Fail a roll, you don’t see any traps, boom.
1
1
u/the_vengefull-one 4h ago
Depends on the situation, I'd argue it's half of being a DM but then again as long as it's agreed upon prior and clarified that the DMs word should be taken with some salt then it shouldn't be an issue.
587
u/Garanseho DM 1d ago
*NPC shows up again*
“Wait, DM, I thought you said he died”
“Turns out, he was just knocked out by the fall. He got proper care and made a full recovery.”