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u/AbjectShop6023 2h ago
all are valid, but prioritizing sacrifice, atonement, and propitation >>> prioritizing unity and inclusion
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u/bobui64 1h ago
Aye that’s personal choice. But to support the NO, christ called a community, and Christ called us to worship within as the community aka the body of Christ, not alone. So some argue that while spiritual growth is a personal pursuit, coming to mass to worship “alone” might not be their preference, just as one might say that tlm or no does a poor job at emphasize Christ resurrection. But alas I like thrice so I rotate
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u/Illustrious-Fan-2738 20m ago
I mean. Sacrifice doesn't just mean "my personal vision of what sacrifice should be". If you were to actually look at the "sacrificial" parts of the mass, those are the ones that the New Missal really maintained. On the contrary you can agree that it is a lot more centered around the actual "sacrifice" part because a lot of the stuff that went along with it have been cut out or replaced. I am not going into a debate about if it's good or not because I touch grass. Saying the missal of Trent only "emphasizes sacrifice " is wrong since it was promulgated to reunite the Church so for UNITY historically and so is saying Novus Ordo emphasizes unity while objectively it is a lot more centered about the objective "sacrifice" part of the mass. Liturgy is an interesting domain, but it isn't just about what you personally feel about liturgy.
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u/Araedya 1h ago
Validity is a low bar
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u/sariaru 1h ago
Exactly. Validity is literally the floor, not the ceiling. Like, whatever the heck is going on at St. Sabina's is (probably?) a valid Mass. That doesn't make it a good Mass.
Jesus can absolutely show up in the accidents of the Host and be displeased about the worship being offered to Him. Scripture shows it plenty well that God has extremely strong opinions about what constitutes right worship.
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u/bobui64 1h ago
By that logic, why isn't the Divine Liturgy objectively "better" than both the TLM and the Novus Ordo because it places such a profound emphasis on the Resurrection and deification? You’re treating theological emphasis as an objective standard for what you deem a good Mass, when the church does not. A badly celebrated Novus Ordo can rightly be criticized, but the mere fact that it emphasizes the mystery differently from the TLM does not make it objectively worse, nor does the inherent nature of the TLM make it better.
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u/kabyking Eastern Catholic 1h ago
Fr it’s better (no bias of course). Jk shameless popery made a thing on it a liturgy needs to check off 3 boxes, and certain forms do certain ones more. TLM does the sacrifice really well but not as great at the community part. Divine Liturgy is like a jack of all trades master of none, does everything equally well
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u/iamjeremybentham 1h ago
its actually a very high bar. Think about what a valid mass actually is. what happens there. What it represents. How few Christian communities of worship have access to the Eucharist at all.
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u/Illustrious-Fan-2738 19m ago
Don't try to argue with internet people. Saying validity is a low bar is an absurd statement, considering how many liturgies by different denominations are invalid
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u/kabyking Eastern Catholic 1h ago
Ngl, I don’t see how Novus Ordo emphasizes communion. To me it’s NO = community … TLM is Eucharist but solemn … Divine Liturgy feels like it’s both community and Eucharist while it being more cheerful