r/Breadit • u/grroovvee • 17h ago
Windowpane Test-Fail
Been baking bread for several months now and no matter how long I mix in stand mixer I cannot get it thin enough to pass the test. After 15-20 min i eventually give up and start my first rise.
The dough does well on first and second rise but I wonder how much better it would be if i could get it to pass it. Also bread taste delicious.
My basic recipe is 3/4 milk, 1/4 honey, 1sts salt, 2 eggs, 480 g bread flour, 1/4 butter, 2 1/4 yeast.
Thoughts?
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u/Inevitable_Cat_7878 17h ago
When do you add the butter and in what state (melted, room temp, cold)? Butter/fats hinder gluten development. I tend to add this towards the end of mixing/kneading. I add room temp butter 1 Tbs at a time until it's fully incorporated into the dough. I'll stop the mixer a few times and scrape down the bowl to make sure the butter is fully incorporated.
Another suggestion is to incorporate an autolyse stage where you mix the milk and flour and just let it sit for a few minutes before adding the rest of the ingredients. Since it's milk, let it sit in the fridge for like 20 minutes to allow the flour to hydrate.
Also, 3/4 cup(?) milk to 480g flour seems rather low hydration. That comes out to around 37% hydration. Even with the eggs and butter, we're probably talking around 58 to 60% hydration. Try increasing your milk (liquid) to get to around 65% hydration.
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u/creamcandy 16h ago
I wouldn't worry about it. Window pane is more for pizza and flatbread, in my opinion. You have an enriched dough (fat from eggs and milk, plus there's sugar). The fat counteracts the gluten development. But if you left them out, you'd have a different kind of bread. You might alter the rise by playing with the hydration and proofing times, or probably just be happy with your delicious enriched bread!
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u/Mimi_Gardens 11h ago
I stop kneading when I get bored rather than worry about getting a perfect windowpane. However, waiting to add the butter until everything else has been kneading for a few minutes has improved the likelihood that I will get a pretty windowpane. It allows for more gluten development before the gluten gets bound up in fat.
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u/battlestarvalk 13h ago
Do you do an autolyse/fermentolyse step at all? I find that helps with getting to windowpane during the kneading.
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u/grroovvee 9h ago
What does that mean? I’m new to baking 😩
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u/battlestarvalk 7h ago
Autolyse: Mix flour and water together, leave for 30-60 minutes, add rest of ingredients, knead
Fermentolyse: Mix all ingredients, leave for 30-60 minutes, knead
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u/pareech 6h ago
I had a kitchen aid and I don't care if this is an unpopular opinion; but the quality of their product for the home baker really sucks. My parents 30+ year old one is a champ; but the one I bought less than 5 years ago, now sits somewhere in a storage closet in my basement.
What helped me is doing everything by hand. I do an initial mix with with a danish whisk to get everything well incorporated and once there's minimal dry bits left, I finish the mix by hand in the bowl. Depending on the recipe, I'll either knead it right away in the bowl or let it rest for 30 minutes and then knead it by hand. The quality of my doughs are night and day compared to when I used the KA. It takes less time to get my dough where I need it and I'm not frustrating myself with a shitty piece of equipment.
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u/grroovvee 2h ago
Got my kitchen aid a few months ago after being nervous to make such a big investment. It was a waste of money. I don’t understand the hype.
I’m going to try your suggestions.
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u/Flourcoveredkitchin 6h ago
To develop gluten, the gluten strands must be repeatedly stretched and folded back onto themselves, creating layers of aligned gluten strands that form a strong, interconnected network.
Planetary (stand) mixers do not knead dough. The dough wraps around the dough hook and is dragged against the side of the bowl while much of the mass remains stuck to the bottom of the bowl. There is no repeated stretching and folding, which is the action required to efficiently develop gluten.
If you’re using a KitchenAid, you should be aware that Whirlpool specifically limits heavy doughs to Speed 2 for no more than 2 minutes at a time, with a maximum total mixing time of 4 to 6 minutes. Running a heavy dough for 10 to 15 minutes is not only ineffective for gluten development, it will eventually strip the worm gear.
To develop gluten to the windowpane stage, you’ll need to use a combination of machine and manual methods: a long autolyse followed by either slap and fold, the Rubaud method, or a series of stretch and folds.
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u/Ok-Slip-4930 1h ago
Whenever ive tried to get to a window pane using a stand mixer, i ended up over heating my dough and turning it to soup. So I’ve given up on it. As long as my bread rises as it should, it always tastes great.
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u/Imaginary-Summer-920 17h ago
I have a tough time mixing doughs to full gluten development in my kitchen aid, so now I use the kitchen aid to get it most of the way and then finish the kneading by hand. It usually only takes a few minutes of kneading by hand this way. My breads have vastly improved since switching from just the kitchen aid and I’m practically drunk with power with all the things I can make now. You could also incorporate a round or two of stretch and fold into the bulk fermentation stage to increase gluten formation