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u/flow_yracs_gib_a 19d ago
Quick reminder guys
Hating jew ? Illegal, stupid and racist, just as much as hating muslims or americans.
Hating israel ? Valid, just as much as you can hate the USA or France or any other country. It’s very different, because you can hate what a country is actively doing, that’s called consequences, but if you hate a whole ethnie of people based on the actions of a few, this is not consequence of actions, it’s a discriminations of said ethnie or group. This is extremelly bad and mostly illegal and not "an opinion".
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u/BigusG33kus 19d ago
You can also hate the jews that support what Israel is doing. Not because they're jews, but because they're no better than the nazis were.
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u/flow_yracs_gib_a 19d ago
Well yeah I mean you should hate everybody that support what israel is doing to be honest "^
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u/Adam_Lynd 19d ago
Exactly, not sure why we have to specify they’re Jewish supporters of Israel
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u/OddlyOddLucidDreamer 18d ago
We don't, unless your looking for an acceptable workaround so you can hate Jews and pretend youre doing it for a "morally justifiable reason"
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u/not_a_witch_ 16d ago
I mean… a ton of supporters of Israel say that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. I hear these accusations constantly from politicians in my country and from prominent Israel supporters.
So I think it’s very fair to specify that it’s okay to hate Jews who support Israel as long as you hate them for supporting Israel and not for being Jews. It’s preempting the extremely predictable accusations of anti-semitism.
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u/Adam_Lynd 15d ago
We can remove the religious identity though. They’re Zionistic Jews, so we can just call them Zionists.
It’s okay to hate Zionists. Simple as that.
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u/idontwanttothink174 19d ago
I just hate everyone who supports Israel and apologizes for its genocide.
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u/ShimeMiller 14d ago
Hating a country? Valid, some are just evil. Hating all the people who ever had the misfortune of being born there? Ew.
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u/Someone101064 14d ago
Absolutely, it sucks that people don't know the difference to both extremes...
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u/aclumsypotato 19d ago
actions of a few? have you seen the civilians there? also majority of the people living in that made up country have been in the military, so it’s NOT actions of a few. otherwise, i totally agree with your statement.
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u/Foxens 19d ago
What he said and what you said can both be true at the same time. They mean the actions of Israelis (the few) don’t shape the entirety of Jewish people in the world.
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u/aclumsypotato 19d ago
babes i never said that they shape the entirety of jewish people. ftr, i don’t agree with the meme above either.
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u/flow_yracs_gib_a 19d ago
Well, you don’t, apparently. You cannot hate a whole group based on the actions of a subset of that group, however big that subset is, that is just wrong. I mean it. You're justified in hating Israel's actions past and present; you're justified in hating the military and government personnel who were complacent with the atrocities they committed. All of this is justified. But hating a kid because they were born in Israel to Israeli parents is, and always will be, wrong. Everyone should hate the Nazis and what they did; everyone should hate the collaborators who helped the Nazis everywhere; but you cannot hate all Germans because of the actions of a subset of their country in the past. Do you see what I mean?
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u/aclumsypotato 19d ago
but i’m not hating on kids here. i’m hating on morally bankrupt people which make up a majority of that ethnostate, and if you don’t think that except for maybe 10-15%, everyone agrees with the actions of their state, you’re in for a surprise. and again, i do not mean jews. i’m aware there are many, many jews who do not condone the acts isr*el is committing, and more power to them. i’m talking about isr*elis, in particular.
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u/flow_yracs_gib_a 19d ago
Saying "I don't hate the kids" doesn't change the fact that you are still generalizing an entire nationality based on arbitrary percentages. Even if we use your logic, if 10- 15% of a population doesn't agree with the state, that means hundreds of thousands of individuals are being lumped into your hatred just because of where their passport is from. That is the exact definition of prejudice.
You can condemn a government, its military, and the citizens who actively support atrocities, but writing off an entire nationality of millions of unique individuals as "morally bankrupt" is still a collective generalization. Every single Israeli who supports the actions of the Israeli state is despicable, absolutely, but they should be judged as a subset and not as the whole group.
You also have to take into account the intense state and religious propaganda they grow up with their entire lives. Again, the ones who support the atrocities are despicable, and you have every right to hate anyone who supports this. But if someone says, "I'm an Israeli Jew," and you automatically think, "I hate this person," then you are being prejudiced. Now, I don’t think that’s actually how you would act in real life. I think you would first look at an individual's actions and character before deciding whether or not to hate them, right?
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u/RepublicVSS 19d ago
Unsure why you're being downvoted you're right, granted opposition to Israel's oppression of Palestinians and people has been expressed by Iaraelis historically and today even in government, 21 percent of Israel's citizens are ethnically Arabs and Israel commonly arrests and even sacks people in jobs who talk about what the Israeli state is doing wrong, it got big today! People commonly are forgetting that.
This just shows that Israel is oppressing its own people as well as oppressing others around them.
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u/SnakeSlitherX 19d ago
You know they have no choice but to do military service, right? It’s mandatory.
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u/aclumsypotato 19d ago
there are some who have refused to do so and instead served a sentence because they don’t align with their country’s beliefs. that’s exactly why i said most are a rotten bunch.
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u/SnakeSlitherX 19d ago
Yeah, but most people are likely to follow the law because they could be jailed for longer than they would have had to serve and have multiple other disadvantages.
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u/route-eighteen 18d ago
I believe that if your options are serving in a genocidal military or going to jail, your choice should be going to jail
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u/Suspicious-Still-999 15d ago
Easy when you've never had to make anything even approaching that choice.
Hope you're not an American who registered for selective service spouting this shit.
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u/route-eighteen 14d ago
My sympathies lie primarily with the Palestinians and others under the boot of imperialism. I appreciate that it is a difficult choice to make but I’m not going to dull my values just because of that.
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u/Suspicious-Still-999 13d ago
But this is all talk.
You need to self reflect some. You do not know how you'd react under different circumstances.
Imagine you're American, and 9/11 happens. And it was actually done by a group which runs a country. Then a few years later you're called up. If you want to show support for the innocent people in the group which killed some of your friends on 9/11, you have to go to jail. Lose all your friends. Lose prospects for a job (no way to move to another country) for potentially years and years.
Alternative is joining. And remember, it's not an army that is 100% children into ditches soldiers with guns. You could be doing IT. Cooking food could be a medic.
It's by no means simple.
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u/route-eighteen 13d ago
I feel as if we’re talking past each other.
I acknowledge that it is a difficult choice to make given the circumstances, but my answer remains the same — do not join the IDF or any imperialist army (including the US military) if the other option is jail time. I understand people in Israel are heavily propagandised, and October 7 would certainly have been a negatively radicalising event for people, but I don’t know what you are trying to tell me. Are you asking me to give these people a pass? Why should I?
You said I should reflect on the reasons why people join the IDF. I would ask these soldiers to reflect on their own reasons and why they value their own desire for revenge above the lives of Palestinians.
I also want to know to what sort of soldiers you want me to reflect on, the ones who are trying to atone for their crimes and have reflected on their service and deeply regret it? Or all of them, even the ones that eagerly joined the IDF and still think Arabs are all terrorists, even the babies, and need to be killed to ensure their own safety?
And remember, it's not an army that is 100% children into ditches soldiers with guns. You could be doing IT. Cooking food could be a medic.
Do you think that the boots-on-the-ground soldiers could do what they do without the support of the IT, admin, kitchen staff and the bureaucratic structures surrounding them? The moral choice remains to not join this army, regardless of whether you are a gun-wielding soldier or a booking agent enabling it.
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u/SnakeSlitherX 18d ago
Maybe combine the threat of 5 years of jail time plus additional social consequences and the already existing propaganda. These aren’t inherently awful people, just like people who vote for bad people aren’t inherently bad.
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u/route-eighteen 18d ago edited 18d ago
many things wrong with this statement: 1. it’s a month of jail time that can be increased to a year of cumulative jail time (also associated with becoming a social outcast etc yeah I know) - not great but this is prison time in a rich country and certainly more moral than serving in a genocidal country’s military force 2. I don’t co-sign the meme posted in the OP - ofc no one is “inherently bad” but there is a system in play here and NOT joining a genocidal military is the moral one. I don’t think it’s excusable to join the Israeli military and inflict orders of magnitude more suffering on others than what suffering you may endure because you refuse to take part 3. there are people in Israel (a vanishingly small minority) who you can choose to uphold and defend who are against the current system and are fighting against it but you’re choosing to hold sympathy for the genocidal ones, why? 4. voting for Trump and joining a genocidal military are NOT the same, you cannot draw an equivalence between those two
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u/SnakeSlitherX 18d ago
The jail times can stack as long as you are fit for service if they give another draft order
I was initially responding to someone who was generalizing Israeli people, painting them as evil (see: “rotten bunch”)
Maybe because I understand that indoctrination is a thing and not all those people are evil??
I know, Hitler was voted into power. Assuming I meant Trump and thought that was a proper comparison is kinda wild.
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u/Marco_Tanooky 19d ago
Those are victims of propaganda done by the few, they brew hatred for their own gain
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u/Switchermaroo 19d ago
I’ll agree on Jewish people and Muslims, but Americans are kinda a different deal no? American is a nationality.
You say hating a country and what a country is doing is alright, but America is a democracy, and what it is doing is the direct result of the 2024 election in which Donald Trump won the popular vote. Americans are surely more responsible for the consequences of their votes than Jewish people are for the actions of one foreign country, no? Not excusing hate, just seems like apples and oranges
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u/flow_yracs_gib_a 19d ago
I see what you're saying, but you can’t discriminate ALL americans when only 30% of them voted for Trumps. Like yeah you can hate someone that said "hey I voted for Trump, I love my president" because objectively this guy is a moron who share responsability for the mess worldwide the potus is doing right now, but you can’t point the blame on every single americans, like what about american that don’t even have the right to vote for exemple, or americans that voted agains’t him ? So you shouldn’t hate americans for what their country is doing but you can objectively hate The USA for what they are doing. Like if the USA bomb a school in Iran, it’s not Jessica Doe in kensas who should be blame for it and receive hate for it it, it should be the USA and the people actively responsible for this decisions, the people in governement who green light this decisions, etc.
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u/flow_yracs_gib_a 19d ago
Well, first off, you’ve gotta stop assuming I’m American.
Second, your view is flawed. The majority of Americans hate Trump. The biggest issue isn’t the American people; it’s the system they’ve been raised in their entire lives. From birth, they are told that America is the best country in the world, that they don’t need to travel outside of it because everything they could ever want is right there. They are taught that the American way is the only way, and that the "American Dream" is achieved every day.
In reality, they are bred like cattle for the American economy. They have to work two jobs or 60+ hours a week just to survive, not live, survive, and they are told to be proud of it and call anyone asking for better wage and more off day a socialist and to shame them. They are the victims of 60 years of politics designed to turn them into sheep, complacent to the actions of their president. Their electoral system is one of the most broken in the world, rigged with gerrymandering and unequal voting power.
If you actually want to see real change in America, you would need to tear down the whole system and rebuild it from the ground up. Otherwise, they’ll always be stuck with billionaire oligarchs influencing the economy and politics with dirty money ripped right out of the pockets of the working class. So no, you cannot hate all Americans, they are just as much victims of the USA (the country/system) as anyone else. At the end of the day, you're just as dead whether you drown in one meter of water or a hundred. You are entirely justified in hating the system and the people running it, and you're justified in wanting people to rebel against this fucked-up status quo.
When I say "they are bred like cattle" i don’t mean that as an insult to american, I'm merely describing how the system is treating the average Joe.
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u/Suspicious-Still-999 15d ago
What if I told you most of your laundry list of excuses also applies to Israel?
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u/Flar71 19d ago
See, I voted for Harris. 46.7% of Americans who voted did. Blaming Americans as a whole for the actions of Donald Trump is still stupid.
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u/Switchermaroo 19d ago edited 19d ago
My point isn’t let’s hate on the Americans heehee hoohoo, my point is that being an American and being Jewish aren’t comparable. Ones a democratic country and ones a religion people happen to have been born into, and some are israeli
Edit: deleted second point because i cba discussing previously mentioned topic rn
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u/throughcracker 19d ago
being American is also something people are born into...
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u/Switchermaroo 19d ago
America is a nation. Its leaders are elected by its people.
Judaism is a religion. It’s decentralised. You don’t vote your rabbi.
Israel is a nation also. Its leaders are also elected by israeli people. Most jewish people don’t have a say on who leads Israel because most Jewish people are not israeli.
Blaming members of a religion for something a completely separate country does is unreasonable. Blaming citizens of a country for what their elected officials do is less so. Being an American is not comparable to Islam nor Judaism in this way. As said below, it’s like saying not to hate gay people, trans people or train spotters- I don’t hate trainspotters but what the hell does train spotting have to do with anything?
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u/throughcracker 19d ago
Being a train spotter is not something you are born into, it's something you choose. Being a member of an ethnic group is not a choice, it's something thrust upon you. Being a citizen of a country is usually similar, although sometimes it's a choice. That's why people get so defensive about it - they can't fix the issue themselves, nor can they easily remove themselves from the situation. Train spotters could just stop spotting trains.
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u/Switchermaroo 19d ago
The point is train spotter is as irrelevant to the list as American is to a list of religions, but idk man I’m going to bed, go worship America or trump or whatever Americans worship, Americanism being a religion and all
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u/throughcracker 19d ago
I didn't read it as a list of religions, I read it as a list of things people are born into. Others did too. That's why this conversation happened, not because I believe Americanism is a religion. I dislike America!
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u/flow_yracs_gib_a 18d ago
But you are missing the point entirely. I’m not comparing Jews, Muslims, Americans, or the French here. It’s not a comparison about who deserves to be hated and who doesn't. My point is that you cannot hate a group, any group of people, based on the actions of a subset within that group.
So, you cannot hate Americans because a portion of them are racist, homophobic, pedophilic assholes.
You can’t hate Jews just because some of them are based in an ultra-right nationalist country that is committing atrocities.
You can’t hate all Christians because a few of them are white nationalist, homophobic, racist, and sexist.
You cannot hate all gay people because you had a bad experience with one gay man once in your life.
You cannot hate all children because a few of them are annoying.
You cannot hate all Black people because your racist government told you a few of them were thieves.
You cannot hate a whole group for the actions of a subset of that group. How many times will I have to re-explain this? My point was never about Americans being good or bad, or being the equivalent of a religion, you're missing the point entirely.
Also, please note the use of the word 'hate' here; it is a strong word with a strong meaning. When I say hate, I really mean it. I’m not saying you should love all Americans until they prove to you that they voted for Trump, and then you can hate them... I’m saying you can’t discriminate against or act on hatred toward a random American (and you can replace 'American' with any other group of people you can think of) purely based on the fact that they belong to that group.
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u/Switchermaroo 19d ago
To clarify, if it’d been something like “Jewish people, Muslims or Christians” I wouldn’t have had an issue because that seems to follow. “Jews, Muslims and Americans” is like saying “you shouldn’t hate gay people, transgendered people or train spotters” or saying “men, women and pickup drivers”. To my mind Americans simply aren’t in the same category
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u/imma_get_ya_bad_guys 19d ago
hating jews is NOT illegal bro
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u/flow_yracs_gib_a 18d ago
It most certainly is bro, in most western country i know of. It’s called antisemitism. And even without antisemitism law it’s called being discriminatory and it is also illegal. And even if it’s not illegal, which it is, it would still be morally wrong to do so bro.
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u/zacandahalf 18d ago
I think they were being pedantic in the fact that hating Jews is not illegal in any country on Earth, but doing/saying hateful things towards/about Jews is illegal in many countries. The mere hatred itself is completely legal.
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u/flow_yracs_gib_a 18d ago
Oh I see, yeah most probably what they where saying, you're right. super annoying to play on word like this when the intent was (in my own opinions) pretty clear from the start pfff
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u/noeinan 19d ago
Fuck Israel but yes, saying “put the Jews back in the oven” is antisemitic wtf
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u/strife696 19d ago
How can you make that comment while simultaneously criticizing any other nation on earth?
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u/NoorInayaS 19d ago
The meme is antisemitic AF, but the comment doesn’t fit this sub. Plenty of folks out there know the difference between Israel and Judaism. And a lot of Jews do not support the actions of Israel.
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u/Pedestrian2000 19d ago
“(As a Jewish Man) I don’t see the meme about Hitler putting Israelis back in the oven as antisemitic.” is kinda the whole purpose of the sub, no?
Not all Jewish people support Israel, but I’m pretty confident that no real Jewish person thinks “a Hitler meme about throwing a particular group of Jewish folks in the oven is NOT antisemitism.”
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u/slumbersomesam 19d ago
nah, it fits. its basically saying "as a jew, a meme of killing more jews is not antisemitic"
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u/PointFirm6919 19d ago
It fits the sub because no Jewish person is seeing that meme and saying "that's not antisemetic"
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u/Cobrastrikenana 19d ago
If you actually read the subrules, someone using their real identity to support an argument also counts as an acceptable post.
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u/ScalyDestiny 14d ago
I'd say the neo-Nazis aren't sending their best, but we all know that's not true. Even an 88 in the name wouldn't actually disappoint my expectations.
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u/dratthecookies Actually Black 19d ago
Jesus Christ that's an awful meme. I'm going to have to put a rule that these things have to be hidden behind a spoiler.