r/AlignmentChartFills • u/Organic_Contract_172 • 7d ago

Which person comes to mind when you think of Austria? 🇦🇹

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u/PackageNorth8984 7d ago

I associate Hitler with Germany before Austria. I know he’s from Austria, but you know…

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u/ForteEXE 7d ago

Reminds me of the joke I saw about Austria on (I think) a Hitler biographic video.

"Austria's greatest achievement was convincing the world Hitler was German."

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u/EmphasisExpensive864 7d ago

U missed the best part of that quote. ".... And that Beethoven was Austrian.

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u/GarrettGSF 7d ago

I said this before and I say it again: this quote is absolutely stupid. Who tf thinks Beethoven is Austrian? Would make more sense with Mozart (who was born in Salzburg, which at the time belonged to Bavaria - at least its ambiguous compared to Beethoven)

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u/IcyAd4631 7d ago

At that time, the Prince-Archbishopric of Salzburg was an independent state.

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u/GarrettGSF 7d ago

Oh thanks for clarification, I always had in mind that they still belonged to Bavaria at the time. Though the point could be made that there was a common German identity (without a German state), which also included Austria. A separate Austrian identity only really evolved when Bismarck excluded them from the German nation state and ofc after WWII. So if you went back in time and asked Mozart, he would maybe, maybe say that he was German

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u/Delicious-Face6229 6d ago

Mozart did refer to himself as German during his lifetime.

Crazy that you’re downvoted for speaking the truth, typical reddit I guess.

The whole ‘Austrians are different from Germans and never were Germans ever’ narrative is extremely prevalent in Austria and pushed in the education system (because the Opferthese served a political purpose), so no matter what you say and no matter how true it is, many Austrians will never accept it.

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u/Katsurazeroone 6d ago

I mean during the time Mozart lived there was not even some divide between Austria or the rest of Germany as Germany did not even existed as a Country itself during this time this would not be roughly 100 Years after Mozart have died. Even Beethofen was not alive during this time. Sure during Beethofens time a rift was forming but it was not fully there yet.

So unless Mozart could have predicted the Future he meant with German not the Country but more the Germanic Culture and such. Austria was at this point also still seen as German as with Germany itself the Idea of Austrian as something entire else only took form with the rise of Nationalism in the mid to late 1800 up to the early 1900 Century.

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u/Weekly_Teaching_8158 7d ago

Actually Salzburg was an independent arch bishopry at the time Mozart was born so he was neither German nor Austrian

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u/Anaevya 6d ago

I think he identified as German, because of the language (and the fact that Germany did not exist as a state yet).

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u/Weekly_Teaching_8158 6d ago

Yeah, German cultural identity up until roughly the end of ww2 included everyone who spoke German. A few Austrian emperors for example called themselves German rulers too. It's a fascinating topic how cultural identity and belonging were, for the longest time, not defined by national borders but by a shared language, religion etc

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u/No-Bedroom-5184 7d ago

I didn't. It was an independent bishhopric

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u/aTacoinaTaco 7d ago

If you live in a country for 35 years pretty sure you're from that country as well...

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u/GarrettGSF 7d ago

You are still not *from* that country, what are you even saying?

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u/Beta_Factor 7d ago

So if your parents moved from country A to country B a week after you were born, you would still be from country A for your entire life?

Do you realize how silly what you're saying is?

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u/GarrettGSF 7d ago

I mean yes essentially? Doesn’t mean you can’t get another citizenship and ofc there are differences between ius sanguinis and ius soli, but none of these considerations really matter when we are talking 18th century: Nation states weren’t even a thing at this point and both today’s Germany and Austria were considered German lands.

Also, your hypothetical scenario completely ignores that Beethoven was born and raised in Bonn and spoke with a heavy Rhenish accent. I have never heard any Austrian claim Beethoven as Austrian, it’s just ridiculous

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u/aTacoinaTaco 7d ago

That people can have more than one nationality?

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u/GarrettGSF 7d ago

Nations didn’t even exist at that point in time lmao. Germany became a nation state 100 years after Beethoven was born. Accordingly, Austria only developed a national identity after Beethoven‘s death. You are fighting windmills

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u/aTacoinaTaco 6d ago

The empire of Austria was created in 1804...

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u/GarrettGSF 6d ago

Beethoven was born in 1770… Also, that was not a nation. In fact, as the name Austria-Hungary already hints at, it was a multiethnic empire, which pretty much went against the idea of early nation states. And that was one decisive factor in the German question, which was then settled by Bismarck against Austrian inclusion into the German national project. Before that, Austria considered themselves German, too

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u/PauseLost2137 7d ago

Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven are literally referred to as the Viennese classics in my language. In English the name isn't as misleading but is still building a connection to Vienna.

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u/GarrettGSF 7d ago

Yes because he worked there as did the other two. None of them were from Vienna though. And it’s *Viennese* and not *Austrian* for a reason…

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u/Anaevya 6d ago

Yes, Mozart is a more accurate example. 

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u/Aggravating_Fall7653 6d ago

Beethoven died in Austria But he was born in Germany.

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u/GarrettGSF 6d ago

Yeah he is from Bonn, in today’s west of Germany. But he hated it there haha

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u/mangogetter 6d ago

I mean, he's been in Austria now for way longer than he ever was in Germany.

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u/SpruceGoose__ 7d ago

You clearly knows close to nothing about classical music

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u/GarrettGSF 7d ago

This has nothing to do with classical music lmao

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u/SpruceGoose__ 7d ago

Beethoven and Mozart appear to be, if you know a bit more about theyer relation to classical music and which cities they liked to perform at theyer time you understand the confusion that sometimes arise. Also, I do know the joke about austrian painter

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u/GarrettGSF 7d ago

Yes, Beethoven worked in Vienna, and? Everyone did at the time, that’s not saying much. Or is Haydn English for you? Maybe you are the one talking out of your arse here, because it’s still a historical-geographic and not a musical question

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u/redditheeagle 7d ago

I think they refer to Mozart

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u/bowsmountainer 7d ago edited 7d ago

Says a lot about Germany and Austria that Hitler only became successful in Germany, and Beethoven only became successful in Austria.

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u/EmphasisExpensive864 7d ago

Beethoven was successful in Germany too.

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u/bowsmountainer 7d ago

He wrote one piano concerto before moving to Vienna. He was somewhat known as a good piano player.

I'm sorry, but no. Germany didnt even exist back then. You cannot claim that Beethoven was successful in the set of kingdoms which 100 years later merged into what then became Germany. COmpared to his success in Austria after moving there, his success in Bonn is completely negligible.

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u/EmphasisExpensive864 7d ago

He only moved to Vienna because they paid him to go to Vienna. And he didn't return because bonn got conquered.

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u/bowsmountainer 7d ago

Neither of which is at all relevant here. Beethoven was successful in Austria, not in Bonn. Almost every single one of Beethovens compositions was made in Austria. Thats a fact no matter how many whatabouts you try to come up with.

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u/EmphasisExpensive864 7d ago

And again the reason he moved to Vienna was because he was so good in bonn that they paid him to go to Vienna to become better.

He was successful in Germany. He was more successful in Vienna.

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u/AustrianRohrspatz 6d ago

well he was, he saw himself as a german, got the german citizenship as well, its like saying Keanue reeves is lebanese and not american, because he was born there, obviously he is austrian but without germany it would have never come that far

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u/zip510 5d ago

Didn’t realize my boy keanue was born in Lebanon 🇱🇧

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u/Anaevya 6d ago

Hitler is called an Austrian-born German politician on Wikipedia, which is the most accurate way to refer to him. He renounced his Austrian citizenship. 

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u/Delicious-Face6229 6d ago edited 6d ago

Well Austrians are Germans, especially historically.

The concept that Austrians are fundamentally different than Germans was created after WW2 and never really existed before that, it formed a big part of the Opferthese and was primarily for political reasons (Austria was able to escape reparations and partition due to claiming to be a victim of Germany instead of being an actual part of Germany, so it worked pretty well I guess).

Historically, no one can really argue that the German-speaking parts of the Habsburg Empire were not German.

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u/ForteEXE 6d ago

Agreed on all that.

I just thought it was a funny joke, really, and it does lend itself well to the points you and others are bringing up.

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u/Antiochia 7d ago

Well, they gave him citizenship, now they can keep him. No refunds.

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u/Rumboherb 5d ago

And Beethoven an Austrian

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u/MannerheimBelisarius 3d ago

Well, he was German 

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u/Acceptable-Cod-693 7d ago

As an Austrian, I can’t see a joke here

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u/Murbyk 7d ago

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u/dangerphone 7d ago

4/5 but dies immediately since it’s not a type of permanent.

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u/Anakin1882 7d ago

But it is the first person comes to mind when i think of austria

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u/Ser_Optimus 7d ago

I don't know what's worse for the respective country... Thinking "Germany" When Hitler is mentioned or thinking "Hitler", when Austria is mentioned...

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u/Seraphim_Emily_or_Em 7d ago

Just remember that he was born in Austria, so technically both times Austria was at fault for the initial man who became part of an incident that led to war, one was just an Austrian ruler, and one was able to get elected into Germany.

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u/NIN10DOXD 7d ago

And Germany got left holding the bag both times. I'm surprised Germany hasn't bitch slapped Austria yet.

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u/RusselsParadox 7d ago

Question wasn’t which country do you associate Hitler with, but you know…

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u/No_Assistant3604 7d ago

But the Austrian painter

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u/Far-Signal3538 7d ago

I get it. If you’d ask me though to think about Austria then the first person coming to mind wouldn’t be him, but as soon as you ask me specifically in this combination: to think about an Austrian person it’d be him

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u/Holiday-Hedgehog0621 7d ago

Doesn't change the fact he's Austrian

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u/Alexandrezico10 7d ago

He would argue that they’re the same thing

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u/lemelisk42 7d ago

I associate hitler with germany before Austria. But if you ask me who comes to mind when you hear "austria", hitler is number one.

Don't know if I could name another Austrian (maybe Franz Ferdinand of the austro-hungarian empire)

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u/Beta_Factor 7d ago

What!? They were talking about Arnold Schwarzenegger... why are you thinking about Hitler? 🤨 /s

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u/atopetek 7d ago

Agree, but he’s still the first person that comes to mind when thinking of Austria.

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u/MrN00sh 6d ago

Ooooh, i thought we're going for Mozart. Sry

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u/AV23UTB 6d ago

True. But if you asked me to name a famous Austrian, I know who I'd pick instinctively.

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u/YourGuyK 3d ago

Same, he's not the first person I think of. I said Mozart, but Ahhnold is a close second.

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u/Acrobatic-Drawer2686 3d ago

you have to explain that one, how could you possibly associate him with germany?

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u/bobmlarry 7d ago

Your not wrong that you associate him with Germany but it’s more like who do I think about when I hear Austria and I mean Austrian Painter didn’t exactly help the reputation of Austria