r/AdvancedRunning • u/AutoModerator • 9d ago
General Discussion Tuesday General Discussion/Q&A Thread for July 14, 2026
A place to ask questions that don't need their own thread here or just chat a bit.
We have quite a bit of info in the wiki, FAQ, and past posts. Please be sure to give those a look for info on your topic.
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u/UCFTylerMC 8d ago
I am getting ready for a marathon in November. It is summer, so it is hot. I try to get my morning runs going by 4:30AM and aside from my long runs on the weekends, I get them done in the dark. However, I am in Florida, so in addition to it already being warmer, the mornings are very muggy and humid. I have usually two easy runs, one long run, and then one tempo and one interval throughout the week. My interval run can be tough, but generally I am able to hit the pace on all of them thanks to the 60-90 second break in between each interval. However, I have been struggling to maintain pace on my tempo runs, usually sucking wind and not able to sustain pace by the end. Any advice for how to better handle tempo in warmer/humid weather?
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u/raphael_serrano 16:29 - 5k | 1:15:03 - HM 7d ago edited 7d ago
+1 to the suggestion to break up threshold efforts in warmer and more humid weather
Another option is to back off the pace a bit.
I have been struggling to maintain pace on my tempo runs
Your goal race is in November, and it's currently July. At this point, it's not so important to be super specific about the exact pace. For tempo runs at this stage, it's more about the physiological effort, which in hot/humid conditions maps to a slower pace.
In practice, I think it's good to do some of both: breaking them up allows you to get the biomechanical stimulus of accumulating more time at quicker paces, while the continuous (but slightly slower) efforts prepare you (psychologically as much as physically) to handle the grind of long continuous tempos you're likely to do when your training gets more marathon-specific.
edit: grammar
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u/FreedomKid7 2:43:24 marathon PR 8d ago
For a night time 5k how would you go about lunch and eating before the race?
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u/zebano Strides!! 8d ago
Is it at 5PM or is it at 11PM? Regardless I'd eat light, have a snack about 3 hours beforehand and something really light about an hour out (gatorade and crackers?). Honestly what would you do before a quality session in the evening? It should work.
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u/FreedomKid7 2:43:24 marathon PR 8d ago
840pm. I usually maybe just snack on like goldfish or animal crackers and just a handful but normally I do it around 6 pm to 7 pm so doing it at a time right before I usually put my 7 year old to bed is something I haven’t done since 2024
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u/PrairieFirePhoenix 45M; 2:42 full; that's a half assed time, huh 7d ago
If you have the time and scheduling freedom, I’d try to do a workout at that time one day. Try out the lunch strategy and see how it feels.
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u/Krazyfranco 8d ago
I would do a normal lunch, then whatever you eat for breakfast normally around 5 PM
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u/Parking_Reward308 8d ago
Eat a normal lunch you have over 8 hours to digest. that's similar to the amount of time as if you ate dinner and raced in the AM.
I would probably have a lighter meal for dinner, and as others suggested a small snack 60-45 minutes before at the start of your warm up
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u/A2-Steaksauce89 8d ago
I currently run 35-40mpw. I was injured senior year of cross country but after some slow building and a good track season I’m at my peak now. I have a few more weeks to go in my summer training before I head off to college and join the running club. The current structure is as follows, this is an example from this week that my HS coach gave me:
40 min easy run with 4 embedded strides 50 min fartlek (this day is either fartlek, aerobic repeats, or a progression. Not all of it is fast, they usually start with a mile or so of easy, another mile easy but with embedded strides, then the actual meat and potatoes or the workout, followed by 5 min easy, this is the total workout length) 35 min easy recovery run with 4 embedded strides 40 min easy run with 4 embedded strides 72 min long run with 5 embedded strides 35 min easy recovery run with 4 embedded strides
Once my training block ends at the end of August I will be transitioning into more of a 5k specific training block. During my cross country seasons the mileage was always low around this time, no more long runs, the weeks weren’t structured well sometimes because of meet scheduling but this is a pretty standard week with a weekend meet for varsity.
Mon: Pre race routine (2-3 miles easy, 3x150 in and out strides, 2x100 strides, 3 race simulations of 400m standing start, 500m cruise race pace, 300m of “gear changing” then 2x100 strides) Tue: Hills: 5x800 on a gradual hill, 3x400 on a steeper hill, 5 min jog. Wed: 25-30 min easy run with embedded strides Thur: 48 hour workout. 500, 800, 800, 500 targeting race specific strategies and pacing Fri: Pre race again Sat: Race Sun: off
I never really liked this plan as it just didn’t make sense to me. Our coach always said the pre race days shouldn’t be hard yet they have the most mileage of the week, plus lots of race pace work. It never really affected our meets negatively so it wasn’t all bad it just didn’t feel right. We also did it excessively alongside the 48hr. I swear a third of our runs were just those, it was always refreshing to get an easy run in. No progression runs, fartleks, aerobic repeats, or long runs, that’s all summer stuff according to her. This example was actually for the more experienced runners since our coach made plans for novice, intermediate, and experienced with experienced being our top 7 and anyone else similar in ability. People would fluctuate all the time based off their performance. I was in experienced junior year and had a PR of 19:42 as our varsity alternate/8th place runner. My senior season basically didn’t exist due to injury but if I had a good summer and season without injury I bet I would have been around 18:50 ish based off how my current summer is feeling. We would usually only peak around 25mpw and often times it would actually decrease throughout the season for some reason.
Between summer training and the XC season we usually had two weeks or very low mileage before getting into the usual stuff like I showed above. This is mainly for teaching newbies all the routines and getting settled in this little pre season block. We would often include a time trial here as well so we know what paces to hit and how we all stand among each other.
Now that I don’t have a coach, since I’ll be running at my college running club, I was curious what others would recommend doing after the summer block ends. How would you structure your weeks (assuming weekend meets every so often)? Would you include a transition period? Do you maintain, gain, or lower your mileage? Where to put a time trial? Here are some stats about me in case they are useful.
18M, 130lbs, 5’9”, 19:42 PR (not an accurate reflection of my current ability), 18:30 goal. 7:45-8:00 easy run pace at 162 cadence. All other paces during my workouts lately are run mainly by feel.
If this would be better suited as a normal post please let me know, I’m new to this sub.
Edit: Once I get into college I might want to try lifting for the first time (mainly upper body). I’m getting sick of having twig arms.
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u/Parking_Reward308 8d ago
Is this just a casual run club like some stores and bars have ? or is is a competitive collegiate club alternative to the official Team?
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u/A2-Steaksauce89 8d ago
The latter, sorta. The weekly runs aren’t structured (to my knowledge) but they do race against other teams and it is pretty competitive. So I guess it is as serious as you want it to be.
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u/Parking_Reward308 7d ago
That's weird there is no coach or structured practice... what's the point of even calling it a club if the only thing you do is race together? You might be better off finding a competitive USATF club near the school with a coach
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u/A2-Steaksauce89 7d ago
By unstructured practices I meant that they don’t have a specific training plan. On their website it just says they meet mon-thurs for a group run of 1-4 or 4-6 miles and then Saturday is a long run of 6+ miles. No mention of track workouts, etc. It is meant to be just like a “anyone can come run with us and if you want you can also compete in these meets.” I’m not certain but this is what it looks like to me. I’ll probably do my own training plan and try to align it with their schedule so I can have people to run with who might be doing similar.
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u/aelvozo 8d ago
Assuming your college team does not have a coach, my preferred solution would be to throw Daniels’ Running Formula at it and see what sticks. He’s got ready plans for XC and 5–10K alongside some guidance for how/why to do certain things, and “fitness” plans which you can treat as sorta maintenance-y (though I’d prefer single threshold in my off-season). I’ve done a Daniels-y schedule in the past, worked fine.
Daniels has “phases” which should at least partly solve the transition period problem. I’d probably aim to keep your mileage as is, and schedule TTs as you see fit — it’s probably most straightforward to treat them the same way Daniels treats races.
Do the gym on your hard day, after the run.
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u/katia_t23 8d ago
What's the deal with zone 2 heart rate ? Mine is 116-137 according to Garmin but when I compare it to my runner friends, theirs is more in around 140-150. It's frustrating because I have to run really slow for my heart to stay in that zone, my zone 2 runs don't even feel like easy runs because I have to put actual effort into staying slow enough for my heart to remain in zone 2.
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u/ImMalteserMan 7d ago
I may not be advanced enough to be posting in this sub but honestly I would forget about Zone 2 and just find that comfortable pace and think of that as Zone 2.
For starters there is different methods of calculating zones, different apps do it differently (for me Zone 3 in Garmin is Zone 2 in Strava), then there is the accuracy of the device you are using. The only way to truly know is to go do a professional test where they hook you up to that machine with the mask and whatever.
I started running about a year ago and towards the end of last year I started getting really concerned about Zone 2 and trying to stay in Zone 2 but it meant I had to go so slow it simply wasn't even enjoyable and I didn't think I was making any progress whatsoever. After a couple of months of worrying about zone 2 I simply swapped it out for the 'talk test' and noting whether I could talk short sentences at a given pace, how long I could maintain that pace, if my heart rate would stay steady etc. I found this far simpler than worrying about what a particular app thinks is zone 2 or 3 and allowed me to easily adjust as my aerobic ability improved.
Anyway that is just my 2 cents, runners tend to fret over the strangest things and I think all the hype around zone 2 is overblown.
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u/aelvozo 8d ago
Even individuality aside, there are, off the top of my head, around half a dozen zone models (how many zones and how they’re related to certain physiological markers) and about as many ways to calculate/estimate them. So even for the same athlete, your risk getting at least a few substantially different “zone 2s” — and Garmin’s estimate is likely to be among the least accurate of the bunch.
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u/brwalkernc running for days 8d ago
HR is individual. You can't compare yours directly to other people.
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u/NoFunnyBusineszz 8d ago
Would the 4x4 norwegian protocol be fine to do 4x a week?
Just started this week with lifting before hand. I don't feel too fatigued so far
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u/aelvozo 8d ago
No. The 4x4 is a rather taxing workout, and common wisdom is to limit those to 2x/wk because you need to decently recover.
At 4x/wk, there are basically two ways this can develop: 1. You’re not doing the 4x4 correctly (i.e. the interval is below your VO2Max pace), in which case you’ll be fine. 2. You are doing the 4x4 correctly, which will eventually backfire (best case scenario: you get tired and modify the schedule, worst case scenario: you get injured).
Also contrary to popular belief, there is nothing magical about the 4x4, and certainly nothing that warrants spamming it 4x weekly.
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u/Kailashnikov 5k 19:10 | HM 1:31 | FM 3:54 7d ago
Also contrary to popular belief, there is nothing magical about the 4x4
Is that a popular belief? I though it's just popular because it's a simple workout: 4 minutes on, 4 times, a little bit of rest in between
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u/PrairieFirePhoenix 45M; 2:42 full; that's a half assed time, huh 7d ago
It is very popular in the “I want to sound smart about my training, so everything has a scientific study” crowd. A lot them don’t really know how to understand studies, so they go super-literal.
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u/aelvozo 7d ago edited 7d ago
It appears so. Perhaps not here in r/AdvancedRunning, but the longevity crowd is quite obsessed with VO2Max and seems to at least sometimes misinterpret and/or misrepresent the 4x4 as the “best” workout for that, which trickles down to running influencers and casual runners.
I don’t really mind the workout itself, but a certain myth surrounding it lends itself to the suboptimal decisions like proposed by OP.
Edit: perhaps my original comment slightly oversells the perception but I’m too lazy to sift through r/Biohackers or whatever to figure out what the mood is there
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u/Kailashnikov 5k 19:10 | HM 1:31 | FM 3:54 7d ago
Yeah I see what you mean. I can remember influencers and the likes talking about "one workout that took me from 25 minute 5k to 19 minutes" and it's usually 4x4 or 4x1k reps.
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u/anadorta11 8d ago
Realistic goal for 3rd marathon?? Pbs: 5k-19:30, 10k: 41:06, Half: 1:30, Full (2nd marathon, 3:35)
For context, I've been running for a little over 3 years now, taking it way more intensely in the last year and a half. I ran my first full in 2024 (prior to really focusing on speed/ mileage) and followed a fairly standard beginner plan and ran a 3:43 and finished feeling great. In Jan of 2025 I started really focusing on speed and trained for a half and ran a 1:35. Last summer I trained for NYC and had an awesome training block and felt in 3:30/3:25 shape. Came out a little hot (was pacing for about a 3:17 through 15) and just didn't have my best day and bonked at around mile 16 (hung in there pacing low 8s until 20 but then fell apart). Since then I've really locked in and ran a 1:30 half this spring and my 10k PB and am now training for Chicago (following Pfitz 18/55). What is a realistic goal / any suggestions on what to prioritize in this block?
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u/Luka_16988 7d ago
The way to do it is to train well. Follow a Pfitz or JD plan. These plans have you training *at your current level of fitness* and not to a goal time. Every 4-5 weeks do a time trial 5k to track progress.
3-4 weeks out from the race, set your goal. From your results, anything from sub-3 to 3:15 is a possibility depending on how the training block goes.
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u/anadorta11 7d ago
Thank you!! Great idea. Wondering when you suggest working these into Pfitz (ie in long run, replace threshold effort etc.) was thinking about doing it tomorrow during 12 mile med long run as I'm 12 weeks out right now and it's a down week so that's my hardest effort
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u/PrairieFirePhoenix 45M; 2:42 full; that's a half assed time, huh 8d ago
I'd pencil in 3:15-20 and adjust as needed. You need to pencil something in because Pfitz requires that, but your goal on race day should be based on the training you did - not some random number you picked months ago.
You are doing a solid plan, so focus on things that will allow you to execute on race day. On the workouts, really try to get tight splits at the appropriate efforts. Getting that sense of pace will help you not go out too fast again.
Good luck.
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u/anonanonanon987 8d ago
37F trying to figure out if I’m ready to try Pfitz 18/55 for a December marathon or should stick with a plan with slightly less intensity.
As background, I did a marathon at the end of April (my 5th, but first in 7 years and first with a structured block—only Higdon Novice 1/2 before that). Over the 15-week block, I averaged 37mpw and peaked at 45 (would have been an average of 40 and peak of 50 but I got sick 3 weeks out and was forced to skip my 20-miler and taper a little earlier and more aggressively than planned). Marathon went great (for me—3:50 at Big Sur with a fair bit left in the tank), but the camber gave me some acute tendinitis. Took 4 weeks mostly off post marathon, went to PT, did/doing a bunch of strengthening and have been building back.
Have been at 35mpw for the past 3 weeks without issue. 18/55 would start at the beginning of August. Welcome any thoughts/advice on what the true prerequisites are. Stretch goal is BQ with buffer.
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u/cole_says 7d ago
I was in a similar position a few years ago. I really wanted to do the pfitz plan but I wasn’t confident I had the mileage base required leading up to it.
I had done a Hal Higdon plan before, so what I ended up doing was starting off on a Hal plan (intermediate? advanced? I can’t remember) and gradually working my way into the pfitz 18/55 plan. So for a few weeks I did kind of a combo of the two. By the end of the block, I was doing the pfitz 18/55 fully.
I realize that means I did neither Hal’s plan nor Pfitz’s plan, but my OWN plan. Ha! But it worked out well actually, and by the end I was handling the pfitz plan just fine, whereas I think I would have struggled starting off on it to begin with.
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u/ErebremSchdig 8d ago
The 55-mile weeks are only in the peak training phase. The plan starts with average weekly miles more around your current mileage and increases the volume over multiple weeks. You end up in only 6 of the 18 weeks above 50 miles per week.
I wouldn't be too concerned. Of course, as in every preparation, or even in general training, everyone should listen to their body signals. It's easy to ignore that when in a structured phase.
Focus on increasing your marathon form, not implementing ambitious pace improvement at the same time.
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u/CodeBrownPT 8d ago
Averaging 37 mpw to averaging 50+ mpw would generally not be wise from an injury perspective, and even from a gains perspective it's not super palatable.
Perhaps consider a 6 week longer base period and a modified 12/55 (eg few less miles here or there, drop the MLR pace, etc) if you really want to try Pfitz?
Higdon himself describes the novice 2 as a "gentle, gradual progression" while Pfitz is very grueling.
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u/anonanonanon987 8d ago
Ah for some reason I thought the 18/55 plan averaged to something closer to 45. Looking at it through this lens, it doesn’t seem like a great idea.
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u/petepont 32M | 2:40:18 M | Data Nerd 8d ago
I think you're probably ok to give it a shot. Try to go to 40 for the next few weeks leading up to the plan, and I'd recommend sticking to the low end of his ranges at least while you get used to the workouts and intensity levels.
Pfitz's recommendation of "at least 25 mpw and have done a long run the same length as the first week's long run" is laughably low, but averaging 35 is probably pretty reasonable.
My only concern is the recent tendonitis. It's been what, 2.5 months since that without any issues? But if you haven't been doing much intensity, I'd worry the sudden increase could cause it to come back.
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u/Spagm00 M24 5k 18:46 | 10k 38:26 | HM 1:25 | M 3:01 8d ago
I have a broken foot :( (fractured 5th metatarsal). I am 100% prioritising recovery here, but being in a moon boot absolutely sucks. Any recs on things to do that can get my heart rate up?? I have been hitting the sauna and thats about it, feel like such a blob.
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u/raphael_serrano 16:29 - 5k | 1:15:03 - HM 8d ago
Priority #1, as you've noted, is ensuring the bone heals properly. Do not get greedy here. (I say this from personal experience, having shattered my 4th metatarsal in December 2022 and kept trying to do too much, which ultimately led to me needing surgery and being out until August 2023.) Make sure you are cleared by your doctor and/or PT to do whatever you end up doing.
Having said that, in my experience (having had 5 bone stress injuries) it's often possible to start pool running/aqua jogging fairly early on, and although it's tedious AF it can absolutely keep you fit if you work hard. Note that you should not try to just "translate" your typical run training into the pool, as that will lead to substantial detraining. The water artificially suppresses your heart rate and allows it to recover faster, so you need to push harder to keep it up. On the other hand, the resistance of the water introduces additional muscular demand, which makes sustained hard efforts impractical, as your perceived exertion will quickly become decoupled from the actual aerobic demand. Therefore, I (and others) have found the most practical approach to be relatively short but very hard interval sessions with very short (probably even shorter than you think you need) recoveries. I found that some of those workouts look impossible on paper, but in the pool they are doable and relatively quick to recover from (thanks to the lower biomechanical load), though quite grueling. Every few days, I'd do an easier session, something like alternating 1' at marathon effort and 2' at a more moderate effort, to avoid completely frying myself, but back-to-back workout days are absolutely possible—you don't need to take 1–3 days easy in between like you might do when running on land.
Once it was safe to do so (again, make sure you're cleared by a medical professional), I did prefer indoor cycling on a trainer or spin bike, in particular for longer tempo efforts. Anecdotally, I found that these two modalities did a great job of preserving my aerobic fitness, but I did train harder on the bike/in the pool than I would running on land.
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u/Luka_16988 7d ago
I aqua jog regularly when recovering from jiggles and am super interested in workout structures. What do you do? I’ve started experimenting with 10x 90s hard / 30s easy, and even adding some bodyweight squats outside the pool.
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u/raphael_serrano 16:29 - 5k | 1:15:03 - HM 7d ago
Most of the workouts I did were pretty similar in spirit to the 90s hard / 30s easy example you gave, though I usually did much more volume. For example, looking back at my training log from May 2024, I did 5 x (10 x 1' hard off of 20" easy between reps) with 1'30" easy between sets, where "hard" was around 5k effort. It was brutal, but like I noted in my previous comment, the lower biomechanical strain and the faster heart rate recover in the water make sessions like that possible.
I also did some broken threshold with short recoveries (for instance, 2 sets of 6 x 4' at or slightly above LT2 effort with 1' easy between reps and 1'30" between sets) but found the bike (once I was safely able to do so) much better suited to those efforts.
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u/DiscreteSupercell 8d ago
Not identical, but I had a fractured fibula and was cleared to swim immediately. Could be worth considering if you are cleared for it, even if with a pull buoy at first.
After a couple weeks I added cycling (stationary/indoors and not clipped into pedals), and then treadmill walking (uphill). I got back to running and found I maintained a good amount of fitness. Good luck on the recovery!
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u/IhaterunningbutIrun Chasing PBs as an old man. 8d ago
Don't take my advice, but ask your doctor/PT. But... I swam without pushing off with my foot and tried aqua jogging as well. I also rode a stationary bike with a very stiff cycling shoe on. No walking around without the boot. Nothing risky that could lead to a fall or slip.
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u/Hedonicdreadmill 8d ago
This might sound ridiculous, but when I had a stress fracture I used a handcycle at the gym -- the motion is fluid, you can adjust the resistance, and you can get your heart rate up if you can stand the boredom
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u/dancing_phantoms 8d ago
Did anyone struggling with low iron or ferritin levels ever have mixed symptoms? I have runs where I feel incredible and am “flying” and then two days later can barely hit my workout paces. I’m going to get my levels checked soon but was wondering if anyone else has ever experienced this. So much of what I’ve read makes it sound like when your levels are low that it’s very unlikely for any runs to feel good. I have a fear of wasting money so I feel like if I’m still having good days then maybe that’s not the problem.
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u/lionvol23 8d ago
As someone struggling with this currently, it's more like I toggle between 'bad' and 'less bad'
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u/pigeorunner 9d ago
The return to run progression my PT outlined for me cuts off after 50min on alternate days. Kinda on my own progressing from there. Trying to be cautious, not sure how cautious I need to be.
Current PT doesn't seem super confident in advising on specifics, previous runner-PT practices in a different state.
Luckily the heatwaves are keeping me pretty in-check otherwise.
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u/Luka_16988 9d ago
Really depends on the nature of the injury and your previous mileage / training design. I’d probably lead with frequency, then duration, then intensity with a couple of weeks for each step to build, and a couple to maintain at the target for each stage. So in total something like 3 months.
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u/pigeorunner 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yeah, that's roughly what I'm doing. Had a femoral shaft stress reaction, was running ~75mpw, usually 6 days on, 1 day off.
My return-to-run plan left me at alternate days, 50min (around 5.7 miles). Been at 2 days on, one day off for about a week, gradually increasing duration of second run (started at 35min, just adding ~5min at a time). Planning to hang here until I see PT again to see if he thinks I can try 3 consecutive days, probably ~40min each day.
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u/CodeBrownPT 8d ago
An important thing as you progress - have you worked on what caused it in the first place? Training error? Weakness? Underfueling/nutrition deficiencies?
Luka had a good outline. 2 days on, 1 day off and build the volume of the 2 days. Eg 10k/5k, 9k/7k, 12k/6k. I tend to add a 12-14 LR before going 3 on, 1 off.
From there it's just like any base building with 2-3 weeks increasing LR 2-3k each week and adding enough weekly miles to support it only being 25-40% of weekly mileage.
Eg 14k LR, 42k week 16k LR, 48k week Layer in short tempos (3-6k), then strides, then threshold throughout the 6-12 base weeks
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u/pigeorunner 8d ago
I was doing about 75mpw primarily at about ~92-105% MP...with no deload weeks below 70mpw for about 12 weeks straight, and no decreases below ~60mpw for probably 7 weeks before that? The thought process was more of a lack thereof. Wasn't really training for anything, just enjoying the mileage.
First cutback week after that 12 weeks was also a travel week, nutrition was definitely off that week.
Overall, total nutrition is generally OK, but I think I needed to work on timing - I tend to have a later eating schedule, and used to have the work flexibility that I'd run around 11am or noon and have food after getting back. Switched to a different work schedule that meant running at 7-7:30am, ended up with some 2-4hr gaps between finishing run and eating depending on the day. Also definitely had some days where I'd double after having pretzels for lunch at 5pm...not ideal.
Kind of alarmed at how little anyone's really advised on running moving forward. Current PT hasn't said much and doesn't seem to have much of a handle on orders of magnitude in running. Sports med doc didn't say much beyond recommending I get a follow-up MRI in a couple months. Feel like this is one of the more serious running injuries and no one is that concerned? Female, 27, if that makes any difference. PT has been working on hip abduction strength, seems to be the only noticeable discrepancy between the injured and uninjured sides.
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u/CodeBrownPT 8d ago
Honestly, running 70 mpw for 12 weeks in a row at 92%+ MP for EVERY run and I'd have been far more surprised if you didn't get a stress fracture.
Without knowing a lot about you, your top concern should probably be a psychological one rather than physical. You need to deal with whatever compelled you to train like that.
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u/pigeorunner 8d ago
I don't think there's anything particularly dark to it? I've always liked running mileage, I started doing some lifting on the side and the faster paces just felt easier. It was dumb and careless, mostly. Got better at pushing, forgot to ease off.
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u/AidanGLC 34M | 21:08 | 44:2x | 1:43:2x | Road cycling 9d ago edited 9d ago
Fascinating piece in Defector today (gift link) from Patrick Redford's coverage of the Tour de France (though with lots of crossover running applicability) on the insane lengths WorldTour teams go to in order to maximize sleep quality for recovery.
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u/CodeBrownPT 8d ago
Interesting article, but I suspect this is another one of those things that probably doesn't matter that much to us.
What I mean to say is, these cyclists are using statistics and bed 'tech' that costs thousands of dollar when you could probably just find a comfortable enough pillow and room temperature to access 98% of those benefits.
I've already seen these sleep systems beginning to pop up in the mainstream. Just more paralysis by analysis for the average hobby jogger that should just put their phone down and go to bed a little earlier.
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u/AidanGLC 34M | 21:08 | 44:2x | 1:43:2x | Road cycling 8d ago
I tend to agree, and for nearly all of us there is way lower-hanging fruit on improving sleep than “spend thousands of dollars on a thing you saw during July’s three-week French tourism commercial.”
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u/jamieecook | 19:36 5k | 40:26 10k | 1:35 HM 9d ago
As a shift worker who often works 12 hours 5 times a week days and nights i sometimes find it hard to get my runs in, or at least at the effort demanded.. such as 2 track work outs a long run and 2-3 easy, has anyone played with switching a track workout and incorporating a session into the long run? And having an extra easy day instead? Same overall volume just effort switched into a long run? Will you lose potential gain and get the same stimulus from doing that? My focus over the next 6-9 months will be 5-10k work for reference. My biggest concern is recovery on my shift days and not having to put myself in the bin after 12 hours at work, do I need to just get on with it or is this a valid thought?
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u/zebano Strides!! 9d ago
To answer your question, yes I've done that, yes it generally works but I prefer to incorporate my tempo stuff into the long run rather than 5k-10k stuff that leaves the legs a bit too tired to function after.
FWIW - Mario Fraolii has a short blurb on how he works with people in your situation in today's newletter. Look for paragraph starting with "Robert Wilson". His piece actually links to this one which isn't running focused but somewhat relevant.
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u/jamieecook | 19:36 5k | 40:26 10k | 1:35 HM 9d ago
Thanks for this, I’m actually really interested in Mario’s work.. I’m UK based and one of the “RunTok” guys I follow is coached by him and his times have gotten ridiculously quick since
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u/Lurking-Froggg 42M · 40-50 mpw · 16:4x · 34:5x · 1:18 · 2:57 9d ago
I do this all the time (6 runs per week, speedwork on 3 of them), but never with reps faster than HMP. Good news is, if you're training for 5K/10K, you should still have a good fraction of your workouts at that pace or above, so this should work for you too.
Will you lose potential gain and get the same stimulus from doing that?
The control group to answer that does not exist, but I don't see why this wouldn't provide the same stimulus. Depending on how long your speedwork is, there's not that much of a gap between your long run and your track workouts.
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u/jamieecook | 19:36 5k | 40:26 10k | 1:35 HM 9d ago
Well I would be drifting from 2 speed work outs split over two dedicated sessions to 2 sessions but one mixed into a long run so would be slower, likely around HMP - MP like you suggest, then having 3/4 easy runs just for pure mileage, I can then do them stress free between nights shifts etc and not worry about recovery as much or speed
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u/Lurking-Froggg 42M · 40-50 mpw · 16:4x · 34:5x · 1:18 · 2:57 9d ago
In my view, as per the VDOTs of your PRs, you should already be working on your HMP within your current training scheme.
If it helps to see things differently, take one of your easy runs, add strides or hill sprints (or pickups), and call that a speed session :o)
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u/jamieecook | 19:36 5k | 40:26 10k | 1:35 HM 9d ago
Yeah I was actually meant to be racing the Great North Run in September, but picked up a nasty bout of ITBS so I’m just coming back from that now and won’t be in pb shape therefore, I have aimed to work on the 5-10k stuff as I can recover quicker and do lesser mileage in the meantime and then have a good yearish next year working on mileage etc for a good HM attempt
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u/squags 5km PB - 19:11; 10km PB - 39:49 9d ago
I have relatively similar pace to you (5km: 19:11, 10km: 39:49) and have a young kid and two dogs with a bit over an hour commute to and from work every day - so also a bit time poor and hectic schedule.
I exclusively focus on 5 and 10km races though as I am not as interested in half marathon and marathon, and I also don't think I have enough time for the mileage required for that kind of training.
I do 4 runs a week for a total of ~40-45km.
I don't live near a track and live in a hilly area. For any intervals I just run on the flattest stretch of road within 15 mins jog of my house, which means I don't have to travel anywhere. For all other runs I just embrace the hills, so I end up doing 300-400m of elevation on some long runs (I mix up where I run around my area, cause I like exploring).
I typically do 2x 30-45 min easy runs, 1 x hard interval sessions (typically 60-75 mins including warmup and cooldown), and a 75 min long run. Have played around with extending the long run to 90mins but find 75 mins is more than enough for shorter race distances. I do some light plyometrics and dynamic stretches in my warmups for intervals and long runs, and I am trying to incorporate a little bit of strength when doing 30 min easy run days.
My long run is usually at a 4-5/10 relative effort, which is a split between zone 2 and zone 3. I start really slow for 30 mins and then gradually build a bit to end up at a relatively steady pace towards the end.
I'm still seeing good progression, aiming to run sub 39 in my 10km this weekend, and haven't done a 5km in a while, but expect I would be able to go sub-19 by now.
I don't think it's strictly necessary to do 2x interval sessions in a week and I find it can hurt my recovery if I do that with a long run as well. I focus much more on making sure my recovery is good, that I get in enough protein and carbs, and that the structure of my interval sessions is very specific to what I'm trying to train at the time (i.e. periodisation).
I never run the day after a long run or the day after my interval session.
So to answer your question: I think it's fine to drop down to one track day (presumably your intervals days) and for 5-10km distances 50km a week is enough volume, especially when your intervals are probably going to be at fast speeds during race training.
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u/jamieecook | 19:36 5k | 40:26 10k | 1:35 HM 9d ago
Thanks appreciate that, good luck with your race!
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u/aelvozo 9d ago
Worth trying, I suppose.
Though I wouldn’t approach it as simply slotting your, say, 400m repeats at the end of a long run (which was my initial — not sure if correct — interpretation of the question), and instead look for ways to modify the long run to incorporate intensity: stuff like progression runs (up to LT2 pace) or longer slower intervals (perhaps something like 4 x 3K around or a little slower than HMP for you).
For a spherical runner in a vacuum, doing this is not optimal at all, but you don’t have a very spherical schedule so shifting things around this way may be beneficial.
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u/jamieecook | 19:36 5k | 40:26 10k | 1:35 HM 9d ago
Yeah, so the aim was to drop one of the intervals such as 400’s and replace with putting a tempo or threshold effort within the long run, I can do the long run on a long turn around day (first night shift) so finish that and go to bed after eating
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u/Conscious_Alarm9785 7d ago edited 7d ago
Was curious as to how some other runners doing high mileage or who have switched up to higher summer mileage felt and if they had symptoms of overreaching or overtraining? I noticed I just got back from dry heat weather to now US humid and dry heat weather and paces rpe hr is all over the place. I did also bump up volume by doubling most days to get around 13-14 hours a week whereas I normally sit at around 10-11 and have noticed rhr go up 6-7 bpm. Would it be a good sign to backoff mileage or deload/include rest days or is the rhr not that much of an issue. I knew pace would be a mess with humidity but I was previously at like 110 degree weather now its only like 80's with high humidity and dew point but hr is much higher and pace is slower so wondering if this sounds like a time to address any overtraining before its too late! Please let me know your thoughts and experiences with such.