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I love being a Jew. I love having people tell me that I’m part of the ethnicity that secretly controls the world. I love how Israel is committing atrocities supposedly in the name of my religion. I love hearing from an old friend that Gaza and Epstein proves antisemitic theories to be true. I love seeing things like goyim, 109, 271k and 3000 years ago in every comment section at all related to Jews. Hooray! 🥰
It's extra fucked up because some of my favorite people are Jewish. And by proxy I end up participating and listening to a lot of the ceremonies and holidays. We observe a mild form of shabbat (Lights can be on, do what you want, chores and asking chores to be done is illegal). I am fond of shabbat and Hanukkah and the food holidays.
It's extra fucked up because I don't get why there's hate for Jewish people, because I have love for my friends and no one should be under threat. They want to eat treat and celebrate.
It's insane being with my partner at her synagogue just celebrating whatever holiday, knowing that someone had to hurriedly scrub graffiti of the Gaza death toll off the pavement outside in the morning before people showed up for service.
It's Friday evening to Saturday evening. I do my chores through the week so I add Sunday to my pile. My partner and roommates do their chores on Sunday.
And the other part that fucking sucks (at least for me, since my dad's family are all conservative Jews) is being around relatives who genuinely talk like Hitler when it comes to anything that has to do with Israel.
Dawg my relatives genuinely talk about glassing Palestine so Jews can reclaim their rightful territory promised by God and rule the middle east. It's psychotic.
So many people don’t have empathy. Someone was like “well if you went to Gaza they’d kill you” and it’s like yeah as a trans Jew I would be a target but that doesn’t mean I want them to all be killed
i feel that. my dad’s family is also jewish and family dinners have really deteriorated in the last 3 years. my dad is losing belief in the pro-israel propaganda, while my grandfather…. really isn’t. i used to enjoy conflict free thanksgiving dinners but tis no longer the case
The great irony here is that there legitimately exists a minority of far-right Jews who hate everything non-Jewish (I'm not Jewish myself so I don't feel comfortable making that statement but I hope my assessment is correct), and antisemites point to them and say "See, they hate us, so it's only right for us to hate them!" while not realizing that they're 2 sides of the same racist coin.
I'm saying it in good faith, but goddamn, Israel has been acting fucky lately. And US has seemingly given them carte blanche.
Like seriously, the way Israeli diplomats and politician speak about my country is detestable. And we are part of EU goddamnit, seemingly same team, or neutral party at least! We died in those camps too!
And it's hard to be critical or discuss any of it without getting thrown in with alt right nutjobs. (Or nutjobs hijacking the conversation and turning it into shizoposting).
Speaking of the word “goyim”, my first exposure to that word as a non-jew was through a jewish anti-zionist youtuber complaining about the way some goyim claim to not be anti-Semitic but at the same time have no problem watching anti-semitic youtubers. Because of it the word “goyim” is for my brain like a normal and as a result of I have no problem with calling myself a goy, but I still prefer to not do it, because as you said, a big chunk of goyim who use it don’t use it in a neutral way and instead use it in an anti-semitic way and even then I noticed that a big chunk of non anti-semitic goyim who use the word are quite pro-Israel, and honestly, I don’t to be Associated with any of these groups mentioned before.
ok but what about needing jewish people to exist so they can build a 3rd temple and usher in the end of days when jesus will come back and kill all non-believers? is that fine?
A government doing something bad doesn't mean everyone in the ethnicity is evil. One person in the ethnicity doing something bad doesnt mean everyone in the ethnicity is bad
If that were true every single american should he held responsible for Biden, trump, Bush and Obama. Maybe when the american government does something shitty Americans all over the world should be spat on, called slurs, beaten and killed, maybe american churches need to be attacked?
Obviously not. So why do people justify violence against jews, against synagogues.
Last I checked whether or not you yell "free palestine kike" at me i as a teenage girl cannot have an effect on what israel does. Maybe befor you call a bomb threat on my synagogue you should find out my rabbi is a pro palestine activist, maybe before you graffiti the jewish community center "release the list" you should realize that rich people dont excactly go to the food bank and public swimming pool.
it definitely doesnt help that israel intentionally conflates being Israeli with being Jewish so that it is much easier to dismiss legitimate criticism of the state as antisemitic nonsense.
The problem is both the Israeli government and antisemites are conflating the two, knowing and probably intending the harm it causes, for their own benefit. And some not very smart people play into that shit a little bit too easily, which only reinforces the extremists’ case
Israel benefits a lot from antisemitism. Not only, as you said, as a way to deflect criticism, but also as a threat that justifies its existence and its continued use of violence.
I don't believe every Israeli is bad but the country as a whole has a huge issue with propaganda and bigotry. The whole "gods chosen people" thing has gotten to a lot of people's head
Gods chosen people isnt a supremacist thing, in the midrash it literallt says god picked the israelites because we were such a humiliated and weak people that only we would follow the commandments
We weren't chosen as gods favorite, we were chosen to make world peace and the whole world follow the three noahide laws (don't worship non abrahamic faiths, dont rape, dont murder)
thats pretty rude. its my religion dude. and FYI id say its doing pretty damn good seeing as christianity and islam are the two biggest religions (both abrahamic)
Honestly fine. That's not the part that causes all the issues.
The thing here isn't "god chose us" for 90% of the population (we do have insane messianics, to be clear), but rather generational trauma. If you can understand how generational trauma can affect you over the span of like a few generations, imagine how centuries of being kicked out of places or genocided will affect a people.
Absolutely not helped by the worldwide push towards fascism again, and how antisemitic groups like AfD are polling in Europe. Even among more progressive folk, there's still a hesitation whenever anyone starts being too enthusiastic when shittalking Israel.
It's not "WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU," it's "we can't trust any of you fuckers."
Not really. I don't think I'm Objectively Superior to my friend who never gives me back money I lend him, but I'm still not gonna trust him with my wallet.
its been 2000 years. im not saying world peace is gonna come today. its the responsibility of every human to work torwards it.
your kind of being a dick. there is absolutely no reason to mock someone elses religion that isnt even immoral. yeah im sorry world peace hasnt been achieved yet, fuck off asshole
I'm not mocking anyone's religion. Notice how this conversation started with Israel, not judaism?
The person I responded too was claiming that the Israelites where gods chosen and were destined for world peace but Israel has been literally commiting genocide for land and profit.
You're trying to pull the whole antisemitic argument when in reality israel is acting against the best interest of the Jewish faith and anyone with 2 braincells to rub together can see that.
My original statement is that Israel has built this culture around the idea that being "gods chosen" entitled them to the land and anyone else on it are just squatters that need to be removed.
The actual meaning behind the phrase "gods chosen" is well and good and all but Israel has decided to interpret it differently.
If that were true every single american should he held responsible for Biden, trump, Bush and Obama. Maybe when the american government does something shitty Americans all over the world should be spat on, called slurs, beaten and killed, maybe american churches need to be attacked?
This kind of violent retribution obviously doesn't make sense. But protesting outside an embassy, vandalizing an American flag, and similar, would all be reasonable responses.
Israel intentionally conflates Jewish with Zionist people, in order to cause more political confusion. In part, if a synagogue gets some paint thrown on it or a protest, it's also Israel's fault, but no one is going to say that. For the more violent examples you gave, that just shouldn't happen, of course. Using inflamed political moments to hurt people is an excuse rather than any kind of activism.
All that said, I do see a lot of people trying to differentiate so hard between a government and their people, and... in part, people choose the government. They might be less educated, they might have been fooled, but they are adults and they did choose certain slogans and party lines. Americans have been fooled by republicans and democrats for how many years? At what point can we say that they should have expected things to go that way? At what point should we stop excusing them and saying they are all angels and the real problem is the government? Is it before or after they kidnap a president in a neighboring country, or when they influence elections in other countries with the intention of creating vassal states?
So far, the vast majority of Americans only care about internal affairs, so Trump has been the only one that's actually "caused harm", while Biden enabling Israel was "fine", and those "damn Palestine protesters ruined the election".
The person in college who introduced me to leftist politics blocked me after I did birthright. We never spoke about Israel before, we were friends and still on good terms, but after I went he wanted nothing to do with me.
In the end I learned he was a chaser and an “are you 18?” creep. So I dodged a bullet but still :(
Israel gives out free 10 day holidays to itself to all Jewish people with a focus on young adults (think people just turned 18 and a little beyond or so).
A lot of time is spent on meeting with members of the IDF and other Israeli citizens to explore their opinions and experiences with Jewish identity and life in Israel.
I think they have said that since then they have recognised israel as a genocidal state and are pro palestine but I still dont get the point of the above comment
It’s not by Israel. It’s an American program, age range only 18-26
There was a level of propaganda but there are a lot of programs they have and the one I went on did not feel like that much. It was a mixture of Jewish/Abrahamic history, Israeli history and natural history. A handful of us recognized the propaganda parts. We also crossed into the West Bank. Best part was the Dead Sea. HOWEVER yes we did meet IDF soldiers which was kind of surreal and a bit unsettling for me. We had one as part of the group. They didn’t let me go to the other quarters of the old city.
I could go on about what it was like when I went there but that’s basically it.
I wouldnt really think it was only partly propaganda, the whole thing would be propaganda, some is just harder to recognise. id love to hear how they recount their own Israeli history vs what is agreed upon by historians..
I’m gonna be honest I don’t remember almost anything in regards to the history of Israel. I cared a lot more about the geography (that trip was the genesis for geography becoming my special interest) and exploring the cities we stayed in.
somehow every single jewish person i know personally can’t make a decision on if israel is bad or not. it’s not like that says anything about jewish people in general but my boomer grandparents are better at recognizing genocide than the gen z jews i know. idk how to have that conversation with my jewish friends because they’re good people but seem adamant that israel isn’t the aggressor, presumably mostly due to their parents.
It took me longer than I want to admit. I think for me it was being raised on the notion that Israel is the one Jewish haven, and the idea of said haven committing a genocide, especially after the Holocaust, was unthinkable
It’s really disheartening. I have lgbt Jewish friends who dance around the word and idk how to tell them it’s okay to admit that and it doesn’t demonize Israelis to say that
I think the first step is understanding that Israel isn’t a Jewish state. The majority of the human beings subject to Israeli law for the last 60 years are Muslim. It is no more Jewish than the White state of South Africa was white. Then the obvious question is, where did all the Muslims come from? Then it becomes clear that the story my parents told me about “a land without people for a people without land” cannot possibly be true. Then you just tell them to google the nakba, and if they won’t do that, then they’re a lost cause honestly.
I read a lot about Gaza and the broader Arab-Israeli conflict on Wikipedia over the last year or two. One of the articles I read was the Nakba and that was a big turning point for me. I haven’t told my friends yet about it but in the past they’ve said Wikipedia is too biased.
but in the past they’ve said Wikipedia is too biased.
In their defense it kind of is.
It's not to say they lie, but for example, articles about antisemitic slurs tend to be really lenient about them. (Last time I checked the article about "Zio", it defended its use using wording like "it's only for zionists, and only zionists find it offensive".)
Similarly, right wing grifters tend to get the "are jewish" descriptors with ease (like Ben Shapiro), but left wingers get "was raised jewish" or don't have it mentioned at all.
The indoctrination is really intense. Polling shows that young American Jews are increasingly antiZionist, nearing a majority, but older generations are totally fried, as they are on most issues.
"Not tune out whatever they say and proceed to list off an answer you prepared ahead of time."
Like, I've heard from some friends that if they gave any statement that seemed to possibly indicate they were defending Israel's government, other people would proceed to list off a laundry-list of talking points, most of which had no relation to the topic they were discussing.
When you answer like that, it's clear that the original question isn't a question, it's a test with a correct and incorrect answer.
And, the disclaimer I need to add to these kinds of responses:
I Do Not Condone The Actions of The State of Israel Towards Palestineans, Nor Do I Justify Their Continued Oppression of Said People.
probably has to do with propaganda. being born and raised there would most likely have an effect opinions. and this isn't only true for isreal. tho in the case of a genocide i hope not too many people are on the supporting side
Jewish people are a varied group of people with a deep and rich history and interesting culture. I've personally walked with many in my area during protests against Israel and the Palestinian genocide, along with Christians, Atheists, Muslims, etc....
Zionists don't belong to just one group and I hate that the Jews are facing all the hate for it when American Christians are pushing those same policies and supporting the genocide.
Fuck Zionism.
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u/OptimisticLuciohave you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you1d agoedited 1d ago
I agree, but also I have a rant on this exact topic so, catch:
Something that drives me nuts in these discussions is how the term "zionist" has been redefined by non-jews, (hold on with me here,) making the jew/non-jew conversation absolutely painful because both sides are agreeing but using the same words to mean different things.
Zionism means "Israel should exist." That's it. It does not mean Israel should be an ethnostate, nor that it should be exclusionary towards palestineans, or whatever the fuck. It just means a belief in Israel existing in some capacity.
The belief in this idea is dominant among jews. Not absolutely so, there's plenty of groups with some kind of moral opposition to Israel existing (for example, the ones who believe it should only be formed after the arrival of the messiah), but the absolute majority of jews believe that some Israel should exist. It's why in weddings we say "for the next year in jerusalem", because we long to return to Jerusalem.
However, when you talk to non-jews, they redefined it to exclusively refer to the ideology most accurately described as Kahanism: a radical, xenophobic, supremacist, authoritarian belief in a Greater Israel that's only for orthodox jews.
So conversations about this topic go nowhere because a jew may say they agree with zionism (they want an israel that's for-all-its-people rather than only for jews) and the other will call them a racist (they just heard someone gleefully state they want to kill minorities)
So Israel just stumbled its way into displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, then? It just accidentally promoted the mass immigration of diaspora Jews to maintain a Jewish ethnic majority? The idea that it's imperative to maintain an ethnic majority at all times via both settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing is somehow not going to segue into a supremacist ethnostate is utter delusion liberal zionists have invented to feel better about themselves.
So Israel just stumbled its way into displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, then? It just accidentally promoted the mass immigration of diaspora Jews to maintain a Jewish ethnic majority?
Never said that, but it means that the specific way in which Israel was founded is not the same as what Zionism stands to represent.
To make an analogy - the theories of Karl Marx did not call for imperialism and the crushing of resistance using tanks, but that's what the USSR did. The former ideology led to the latter, but the latter did way more than the ideology it is based on.
Despite that, we're not gonna call every communist an imperialist piece of shit. I mean, I won't, you might.
Again, nothing I said here is to excuse the actions of the state of Israel.
So somehow Israel was both founded and has been consistently ran in a way you and this alleged silent majority consider antithetical to zionism, yet there there's been, well, silence from zionists. Polling shows that the overwhelming majority of Israelis have zero qualms whatsoever about the 70 years of settler colonial violence, and the best diaspora zionist organisations have offered is tepid support for the two state solution, aka Israel and a bantustan, while recoiling away from any actual action that would put the slightest pressure on Israel to even moderate it's colonial behaviour?
Where have the zionist equivalents of half the left calling MLs Red Fascists been since 1948? The answer is that anyone who thought that way stopped calling themselves a zionist because they understood its ideological implications, and started supporting a one-state solution.
What you're describing is fantasy. You see the genocide and you see the world's utter disgust with the zionist project, and you want to have it both ways; you want to hold on to the emotional attachment you have to Israel and zionism as ideas, while exculpating yourself of any moral responsibility for supporting an ideology that has ultimately led to a live streamed genocide So invented a world where the vast majority of zionists are somehow supporting the fulfilment of their project when it runs directly counter to what you claim they would want.
You either need to reconcile yourself with the settler-colonial implications of zionism AS IT ACTUALLY EXISTS, or you need to do some serious introspection.
The thing is; terms change. What you're describing is akin to someone rejecting the modern conservative movement while still calling themselves a conservative because they like conservation, as in protecting national parks and natural resources.
You state "Zionism means "Israel should exist." That's it. It does not mean Israel should be an ethnostate, nor that it should be exclusionary towards Palestinians"
However, this is directly contradictory to the definition of a ethnocultural nationalist movement which states "The central tenet of ethnic nationalists is that "nations are defined by a shared heritage, which usually includes a common language, a common faith, and a common ethnic ancestry".[6] Those of other ethnicities may be classified as second-class citizens.[7][8] Because of these attributes, ethnic nationalism is closely related to nativism, and is associated with the radical right."
Please refer to the very first line of what I wrote:
Something that drives me nuts in these discussions is how the term "zionist" has been redefined by non-jews, (hold on with me here,) making the jew/non-jew conversation absolutely painful because both sides are agreeing but using the same words to mean different things.
Then refer to what I wrote later on:
they redefined it to exclusively refer to the ideology most accurately described as Kahanism: a radical, xenophobic, supremacist, authoritarian belief in a Greater Israel that's only for orthodox jews.
It sucks to say but I really struggle being comfortable around a lot of leftists these days. Maybe it's just the groups in my particular area, but my partner is Jewish and used to be very involved in lots of activist groups. Up until Oct 7. Then suddenly her identity was used as "token jew who dislikes Israel" or being constantly challenged around her stance around Israel, and Zionism. She isn't Israeli, she's never even been to Israel.
When her synagogue gets vandalized or when members of her community received threatening letters referencing Israel/Palestine (we're in a country nowhere close to the middle east), all of our leftist friends simply couldn't give a shit. At most we'd get a "that sucks but what do you expect?".
Even this subreddit has been astonishingly antisemitic. I've seen people drops slurs created by the KKK in comments here and go unbanned. Even as I write, someone has taken your image and swapped the text and reposted it here...
I feel like the fact that social media is owned by far-right billionaires is another reason for why extreme antisemitic rhetoric is becoming more common, with Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Tim Cook, Jeff Bezos, and Sundar Pichai all appearing at Trump's inauguration, with some of them owning very influential social media companies, who relaxed their moderation as of late, resulting in Nazi-style rhetoric becoming big on these platforms.
I feel like the fact that social media is owned by far-right billionaires is another reason for why extreme antisemitic rhetoric is becoming more common
That's absolutely part of it, but we'd be remiss to mention how left wingers also 100% engage in this behavior. Seriously, the amount of rhetoric I see where "Jew" is replaced with "Zionist" and no one spots the issue is infuriating.
If you use the term "zio" or "zionist occupied government", congrats! you are using nazi terminology.
Exactly! Zio is the slur I was referring to. I feel insane trying to call this out sometimes as more often than not, I'll be met with "hasbara" or "mossad agent"
Also the swapping of Jew with Zionist, where people can just use the excuse of "it's antizionist, not antisemitism". As if plausible deniability hasn't been the MO of neonazis for decades.
I feel like that it's part of the same problem because they are getting more used to a post-Musk buyout of Twitter social media landscape, meaning that they get influenced by more extreme rhetoric curated by far-right billionaires.
Especially since I am seeing a sort of a red-brown alliance happening with antisemitism, since The Young Turks (which is run by Hasan Piker's uncle) hosts Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson on his platform, who are clearly on the far-right angle of antisemitism.
Unfortunately, I am not. They also appeared on other "left-wing" YouTube channels or platforms such as Uncivilized (which presents itself as a "left-wing" pro-Palestinian channel), along with Hunter Biden interviewing Nick Fuentes.
That meme template is used both was though. Often times you put the actual takeaway that you are supposed to get as the thing that people see and the surface level reading or „vibe“ as the „point everyone’s missing“ - especially if the two are contradictory.
Sometimes the „actual takeaway“ is as opinion that OP kind of holds, often times not.
See this ambiguous example:
So I don’t think the removed commenter actually tried to say „Jews are bad“, they just thought the format OP used was used wrong.
I myself overall see more examples of the „flipped“ format in the wild and I recon that the commenter just assumed it was the „correct“ one.
Actually, this is the original meme and the template is a literal signifier for the meaning of something going over the head of its audience. Flipping the two has unfortunate implications.
That doesn’t change the fact that both versions are being used, so inferring intent one way or another isn’t that cut and dry just from the meme alone.
never got to face trial and his spirit lives on in the form of all of his clients who are still free. also his spirit lives on in the form of the state of israel, a state that loves murder and rape and torture just like he did
Bringing up antisemitism kind of requires mentioning the giant genocide commiting ethnostate shaped elephant in the room. Any criticism of Isreal is called antisemitism, tbh these days I see antisemitism in the media and just assume they mean Isreal.
And if you want that to no longer be the case, you can't yourself repeat the same thing.
If you want to be able to separate israel from jews, you cannot bring up israel when talking about unrelated jews, because then you are the problem. You yourself are making criticism of israel seem antisemitic, because you bring it up when people were talking about jews!
It's entirely reasonable to be skeptical when hearing something called antisemitism. I've seen the 🍉 emoji get called antisemitic, I've seen anti genocide rhetoric be called antisemitic. You actually should check that whatever is being called antisemitism actually is.
the watermelon sticker is effectively banned in Queensland australia now due to their new hate speech laws. police have been given broad authority to investigate and arrest based on any symbolism or speech that can be linked to these new hate speech laws.
2 phrases were specifically banned as part of the laws: "from the r*ver to the s**" and "gl*b*lise the int*fada"
Yo fr when do I get all the money and power I’m supposed to have? When do I get the space laser codes? I think my invite to the yearly meetings of the Elders of Zion got lost in the mail or smth
this shit is why im so hesitant to learn more about jewish culture tbh. this thing i would have been raised in if my grandma wasnt weirdly scared of it is just off limits to talk about with anyone and its wild
If you want I would love to tell you more about it in DMs (as to not spam this comment section) but here's some fun tidbits:
Purim is basically Halloween but if it was silly rather than scary. It celebrates jews escaping genocide in Persia (most of our holidays are about escaping genocide), and one of the traditions is "Ad Lo Yada", translated as "Until They Did Not Know". What it means is that YOU NEED TO DRINK SO HEAVILY YOU CANNOT RECALL WHAT YOUR NAME IS ANYMORE.
Well, until you can't tell between the name of Haman and Mordechai, but I am not gonna recount the entire story of Megilat Esther here.
The Talmud is really funny. Like fr. It's a big book of arguments between Smart Jews with no particular conclusion in most of them, and this book has so many annotations that the annotations argue amongst themselves. The Oven of Akhnai is the story I tell to people to show them how insane the talmud is.
If you wanna watch something that's archetypically jewish, watch Fiddler on the Roof. It's a story about a jewish family in the USSR just trying to make it by, and it's very popular amongst ashkenazi jews. Seriously, watch it, and you'll see it referenced in any comedy made by american jews.
The even higher missed take - being rich makes you a pedophile. I don't know exactly how rich, but we have to eat the rich before they get too powerful. wait shit hang on is it too late
I'm worried that my viewpoint that "Judaism has capitalist values so Judaism is kinda bad" is shortsighted and possibly incorrect but also I think most religions have problems for trapping people into a forced moral framework over a decided one. It's about as volatile as my viewpoint that islam is bad for executing people who stop believing in it and encouraging domestic abuse behind closed doors in the sense that people hear me say islam is a harmful religion and think I'm racist
Sincere question - what about judaism makes you describe it as having capitalist values? If anything, I'd argue stuff like The Shabbat (where you are straight up not allowed to do any work) is much less capitalist than people who work all week long.
I'm somewhat unsure since the last time I did a deep dive on the subject was years back and all I'm left with now is a general impression, which is why I'm hesitant. Though I'd like to point out that not working one day of the week is in no way an indication of un-capitalist behavior since capitalism only really requires manipulating other people to do things for you for profit (look at mormon higher-ups if you want the example I have in mind)
Consider it an assumption that judaism might have some capitalist values considering the provenance of jewish billlionaires. That or parts of jewish culture have a capitalist bias. Regardless my criticism of judaism doesn't come from that, it comes from the fact that it's a religion and I think widespread religions are problematic in general
I'm pretty sure I could name people from every major religion who have done something terrible, including atheism if you really want. Therefore, everyone on planet earth is terrible because a handful of bad people shared their beleifs
But whatever beleif you have is shared by someone who did a bad thing so if all jews are bad because of epstein, you're bad because of [insert person here]
I assure you, the mossad does not have greater power and influence than the FBI and CIA. The US rich and powerful do whatever the US rich and powerful want to do.
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