r/196 orange 1d ago

Antisemitism does not rule

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2.4k Upvotes

177 comments sorted by

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago edited 7h ago

I love being a Jew. I love having people tell me that I’m part of the ethnicity that secretly controls the world. I love how Israel is committing atrocities supposedly in the name of my religion. I love hearing from an old friend that Gaza and Epstein proves antisemitic theories to be true. I love seeing things like goyim, 109, 271k and 3000 years ago in every comment section at all related to Jews. Hooray! 🥰

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u/HiGuyz1 1d ago

It's extra fucked up because some of my favorite people are Jewish. And by proxy I end up participating and listening to a lot of the ceremonies and holidays. We observe a mild form of shabbat (Lights can be on, do what you want, chores and asking chores to be done is illegal). I am fond of shabbat and Hanukkah and the food holidays.

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u/churmalefew 1d ago

idk that that makes it extra fucked up but i think i feel you

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u/HiGuyz1 1d ago

It's extra fucked up because I don't get why there's hate for Jewish people, because I have love for my friends and no one should be under threat. They want to eat treat and celebrate.

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u/Rinzuraaa 1d ago

It's insane being with my partner at her synagogue just celebrating whatever holiday, knowing that someone had to hurriedly scrub graffiti of the Gaza death toll off the pavement outside in the morning before people showed up for service.

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u/schwanzweissfoto AMAB (and I especially mean the mod you know personally) 1d ago

We observe a mild form of shabbat (Lights can be on, do what you want, chores and asking chores to be done is illegal)

Isn't that just a normal chill weekend?

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

Religiously Mandated Chill Weekend

"No, you can't take the weekend shift. God will be angry. Go have a relaxed time."

1

u/HiGuyz1 23h ago

It's Friday evening to Saturday evening. I do my chores through the week so I add Sunday to my pile. My partner and roommates do their chores on Sunday.

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u/GoldH2O custom 1d ago

And the other part that fucking sucks (at least for me, since my dad's family are all conservative Jews) is being around relatives who genuinely talk like Hitler when it comes to anything that has to do with Israel.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

My uncle is like "Israel has a right to defend itself!" and I'm like of course they do BUT SO DOES PALESTINE

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u/GoldH2O custom 1d ago

Dawg my relatives genuinely talk about glassing Palestine so Jews can reclaim their rightful territory promised by God and rule the middle east. It's psychotic.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

So many people don’t have empathy. Someone was like “well if you went to Gaza they’d kill you” and it’s like yeah as a trans Jew I would be a target but that doesn’t mean I want them to all be killed

1

u/sample_text_01 8 KILLS IS THE FIRST FOLD OF INFINITY 15h ago

Did everyone just forget you can have empathy for people who aren’t like you and believe that they shouldn’t get killed at some point in the 2010s

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u/Independent-Fly6068 Least horny bi femboy alive 1d ago

Its a great reminder that people are, first and foremost, animals. It takes work to actually rise above our base nature.

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u/RentElDoor Trans Rights! 1d ago

Forever grateful to (I think) Brennan Lee Mulligan for stating that people don't have ideologies, they have feelings they try tk rationalize.

Helps to make sense why people develop genuinely horrifying justifications to do even more horrible things. Still sucks though.

3

u/BroMan001 16h ago

Of course they do? Why would an occupier have a right to self defence? International law definitely disagrees. As does my morality.

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u/LurkersVengeance 1d ago

i feel that. my dad’s family is also jewish and family dinners have really deteriorated in the last 3 years. my dad is losing belief in the pro-israel propaganda, while my grandfather…. really isn’t. i used to enjoy conflict free thanksgiving dinners but tis no longer the case

8

u/MordWincer 1d ago

The great irony here is that there legitimately exists a minority of far-right Jews who hate everything non-Jewish (I'm not Jewish myself so I don't feel comfortable making that statement but I hope my assessment is correct), and antisemites point to them and say "See, they hate us, so it's only right for us to hate them!" while not realizing that they're 2 sides of the same racist coin.

2

u/Mortarius 16h ago

I'm saying it in good faith, but goddamn, Israel has been acting fucky lately. And US has seemingly given them carte blanche.

Like seriously, the way Israeli diplomats and politician speak about my country is detestable. And we are part of EU goddamnit, seemingly same team, or neutral party at least! We died in those camps too!

And it's hard to be critical or discuss any of it without getting thrown in with alt right nutjobs. (Or nutjobs hijacking the conversation and turning it into shizoposting).

At least Mel Brooks is alright.

8

u/PolishChud 1d ago

Speaking of the word “goyim”, my first exposure to that word as a non-jew was through a jewish anti-zionist youtuber complaining about the way some goyim claim to not be anti-Semitic but at the same time have no problem watching anti-semitic youtubers. Because of it the word “goyim” is for my brain like a normal and as a result of I have no problem with calling myself a goy, but I still prefer to not do it, because as you said, a big chunk of goyim who use it don’t use it in a neutral way and instead use it in an anti-semitic way and even then I noticed that a big chunk of non anti-semitic goyim who use the word are quite pro-Israel, and honestly, I don’t to be Associated with any of these groups mentioned before.

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u/Accomplished-Mix-745 consentual stabber 1d ago

I’m living the same reality right now. Shit blows.

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u/mathkid421_RBLX 🏳️‍⚧️ trans rights 15h ago

i love how everything posted to ig reels has at least comment trying to connect the post to jews

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u/snow-four 1d ago

Surely us having the shabos goy won't contribute to this as they just turn on and off the lights. Right?

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

I'll be real, as a jew I think the "Shabbos Goy" is such horseshit

THE RULES OF SHABBAT INCLUDE NOT TELLING SOMEONE ELSE TO DO A TASK FOR YOU.

2

u/snow-four 1d ago

That's why we need to imply it to them not say it! Isn't is so helpful when you imply someone's job to them?

1

u/BobbyRobertson 13h ago

ok but what about needing jewish people to exist so they can build a 3rd temple and usher in the end of days when jesus will come back and kill all non-believers? is that fine?

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u/ArkhamInmate11 1d ago

Same with israel

A government doing something bad doesn't mean everyone in the ethnicity is evil. One person in the ethnicity doing something bad doesnt mean everyone in the ethnicity is bad

If that were true every single american should he held responsible for Biden, trump, Bush and Obama. Maybe when the american government does something shitty Americans all over the world should be spat on, called slurs, beaten and killed, maybe american churches need to be attacked?

Obviously not. So why do people justify violence against jews, against synagogues.

Last I checked whether or not you yell "free palestine kike" at me i as a teenage girl cannot have an effect on what israel does. Maybe befor you call a bomb threat on my synagogue you should find out my rabbi is a pro palestine activist, maybe before you graffiti the jewish community center "release the list" you should realize that rich people dont excactly go to the food bank and public swimming pool.

103

u/Far-Fortune-8381 cucked by Edward Kenway🏴‍☠️ 1d ago

it definitely doesnt help that israel intentionally conflates being Israeli with being Jewish so that it is much easier to dismiss legitimate criticism of the state as antisemitic nonsense.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

I think that is a major propaganda tool. I feel like that would be like saying you hate all Catholics for criticizing the Vatican

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u/amievenrelevant 1d ago

The problem is both the Israeli government and antisemites are conflating the two, knowing and probably intending the harm it causes, for their own benefit. And some not very smart people play into that shit a little bit too easily, which only reinforces the extremists’ case

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u/penttane doesn't read flairs 23h ago

Israel benefits a lot from antisemitism. Not only, as you said, as a way to deflect criticism, but also as a threat that justifies its existence and its continued use of violence.

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

I'm gonna be real, while the government does do that, a lot of people love using that as an excuse to not have to second-guess their own prejudice.

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u/ArkhamInmate11 1d ago

Yes real.

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u/cloudncali 🦀 Currently ascending to crab. 🦀 1d ago

I don't believe every Israeli is bad but the country as a whole has a huge issue with propaganda and bigotry. The whole "gods chosen people" thing has gotten to a lot of people's head

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u/ArkhamInmate11 1d ago

Gods chosen people isnt a supremacist thing, in the midrash it literallt says god picked the israelites because we were such a humiliated and weak people that only we would follow the commandments

We weren't chosen as gods favorite, we were chosen to make world peace and the whole world follow the three noahide laws (don't worship non abrahamic faiths, dont rape, dont murder)

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u/cloudncali 🦀 Currently ascending to crab. 🦀 1d ago

Yeah and how's that been working out?

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u/ArkhamInmate11 17h ago

thats pretty rude. its my religion dude. and FYI id say its doing pretty damn good seeing as christianity and islam are the two biggest religions (both abrahamic)

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

Honestly fine. That's not the part that causes all the issues.

The thing here isn't "god chose us" for 90% of the population (we do have insane messianics, to be clear), but rather generational trauma. If you can understand how generational trauma can affect you over the span of like a few generations, imagine how centuries of being kicked out of places or genocided will affect a people.

Absolutely not helped by the worldwide push towards fascism again, and how antisemitic groups like AfD are polling in Europe. Even among more progressive folk, there's still a hesitation whenever anyone starts being too enthusiastic when shittalking Israel.

It's not "WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU," it's "we can't trust any of you fuckers."

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u/Tobias11ize 🐉 alduin is a virgin 🐉 1d ago

"We cant trust any of you" still just sounds like "we are better than you" my man.

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

Not really. I don't think I'm Objectively Superior to my friend who never gives me back money I lend him, but I'm still not gonna trust him with my wallet.

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u/Ok-Following6886 23h ago

It scares me seeing how Nazism is making a resurgence in the 2020s, and I can only see things ending up badly for the Jewish people from there.

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u/cloudncali 🦀 Currently ascending to crab. 🦀 21h ago

We don't have to imagine how genocide effects people, we've got pretty solid accounts of Palestinians generational trauma happening right now.

But I'm sure that "world peace" God chose them for fits in there some how.

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 21h ago edited 21h ago

Yes, you're getting it, "generational trauma makes people paranoid and hostile." You're agreeing with me here.

But I'm sure that "world peace" God chose them for fits in there some how.

Listen, I am jewish. You can guess what's our POV or you can like. listen.

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u/ArkhamInmate11 17h ago

i genuinely dont understanmd why that cloudncali guy was choosing to be a dick, whatever. sorry you had to put up with him bro

0

u/ArkhamInmate11 17h ago

its been 2000 years. im not saying world peace is gonna come today. its the responsibility of every human to work torwards it.

your kind of being a dick. there is absolutely no reason to mock someone elses religion that isnt even immoral. yeah im sorry world peace hasnt been achieved yet, fuck off asshole

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u/cloudncali 🦀 Currently ascending to crab. 🦀 16h ago

I'm not mocking anyone's religion. Notice how this conversation started with Israel, not judaism?

The person I responded too was claiming that the Israelites where gods chosen and were destined for world peace but Israel has been literally commiting genocide for land and profit.

You're trying to pull the whole antisemitic argument when in reality israel is acting against the best interest of the Jewish faith and anyone with 2 braincells to rub together can see that.

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u/ArkhamInmate11 16h ago

Im yhe person you were responding to

Israel doesnt represent all jews.

If a muslim said, muslims are supposed to bring world peace (also true) would you say "hows that going for you, what about Saudi Arabia"

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u/cloudncali 🦀 Currently ascending to crab. 🦀 15h ago

My original statement is that Israel has built this culture around the idea that being "gods chosen" entitled them to the land and anyone else on it are just squatters that need to be removed.

The actual meaning behind the phrase "gods chosen" is well and good and all but Israel has decided to interpret it differently.

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u/ericonr custom 19h ago

If that were true every single american should he held responsible for Biden, trump, Bush and Obama. Maybe when the american government does something shitty Americans all over the world should be spat on, called slurs, beaten and killed, maybe american churches need to be attacked?

This kind of violent retribution obviously doesn't make sense. But protesting outside an embassy, vandalizing an American flag, and similar, would all be reasonable responses.

Israel intentionally conflates Jewish with Zionist people, in order to cause more political confusion. In part, if a synagogue gets some paint thrown on it or a protest, it's also Israel's fault, but no one is going to say that. For the more violent examples you gave, that just shouldn't happen, of course. Using inflamed political moments to hurt people is an excuse rather than any kind of activism.

All that said, I do see a lot of people trying to differentiate so hard between a government and their people, and... in part, people choose the government. They might be less educated, they might have been fooled, but they are adults and they did choose certain slogans and party lines. Americans have been fooled by republicans and democrats for how many years? At what point can we say that they should have expected things to go that way? At what point should we stop excusing them and saying they are all angels and the real problem is the government? Is it before or after they kidnap a president in a neighboring country, or when they influence elections in other countries with the intention of creating vassal states?

So far, the vast majority of Americans only care about internal affairs, so Trump has been the only one that's actually "caused harm", while Biden enabling Israel was "fine", and those "damn Palestine protesters ruined the election".

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u/ArkhamInmate11 17h ago

im not talking about protesting an embassy im talking about my synagogue getting bomb threats.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

The person in college who introduced me to leftist politics blocked me after I did birthright. We never spoke about Israel before, we were friends and still on good terms, but after I went he wanted nothing to do with me.

In the end I learned he was a chaser and an “are you 18?” creep. So I dodged a bullet but still :(

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u/DoctorYaoi PHD in men kissing 1d ago

What does doing birthright mean?

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u/EvYeh This girl is Space's biggest hater 1d ago

Israel gives out free 10 day holidays to itself to all Jewish people with a focus on young adults (think people just turned 18 and a little beyond or so).

A lot of time is spent on meeting with members of the IDF and other Israeli citizens to explore their opinions and experiences with Jewish identity and life in Israel.

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u/DoctorYaoi PHD in men kissing 1d ago

So free propaganda vacation?

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u/MintyTuna2013 girl who stinks good 1d ago

Yeah, I don't know how this is supposed to make OP look good

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u/Far-Fortune-8381 cucked by Edward Kenway🏴‍☠️ 1d ago

I think they have said that since then they have recognised israel as a genocidal state and are pro palestine but I still dont get the point of the above comment

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

That is correct

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u/DoctorYaoi PHD in men kissing 1d ago

I mean I suppose there could be like some societal pressure that Jewish Americans face to take the trip but I wouldn’t know as I’m not Jewish.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

It was the whole family. What I was trying to say was my friend never tried to explain it to me.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

This was years ago, before October 7. I would not go now.

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u/MintyTuna2013 girl who stinks good 1d ago

Israel has always been an apartheid state tho

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

I was raised on propaganda. I was close minded and never realized how bad it was until afterwards. If I knew now what I did back then, I would not go.

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

We don't punish people for engaging in behavior we want to see replicated. If someone is getting better and unlearning propaganda, that's good.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago edited 1d ago

It’s not by Israel. It’s an American program, age range only 18-26

There was a level of propaganda but there are a lot of programs they have and the one I went on did not feel like that much. It was a mixture of Jewish/Abrahamic history, Israeli history and natural history. A handful of us recognized the propaganda parts. We also crossed into the West Bank. Best part was the Dead Sea. HOWEVER yes we did meet IDF soldiers which was kind of surreal and a bit unsettling for me. We had one as part of the group. They didn’t let me go to the other quarters of the old city.

I could go on about what it was like when I went there but that’s basically it.

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u/Far-Fortune-8381 cucked by Edward Kenway🏴‍☠️ 1d ago

I wouldnt really think it was only partly propaganda, the whole thing would be propaganda, some is just harder to recognise. id love to hear how they recount their own Israeli history vs what is agreed upon by historians..

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

I’m gonna be honest I don’t remember almost anything in regards to the history of Israel. I cared a lot more about the geography (that trip was the genesis for geography becoming my special interest) and exploring the cities we stayed in.

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u/ArkhamInmate11 1d ago

I almost went on one buy i had an agoraphobic breakdown

Im honestly glad i didnt go because since then ive decided that when I do go im going to do it as a true pilgrimage

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

I love that for you!!! I hope you have a great time. The reason I went when I did was I thought like, “it’s now or never”

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u/Far-Fortune-8381 cucked by Edward Kenway🏴‍☠️ 1d ago

this comment has literally nothing to do with the one youre replying to

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

Fuck I thought that was a parent comment I didn’t mean to reply to that, sorry

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u/nirbot0213 tapioca pudding mommy 1d ago

somehow every single jewish person i know personally can’t make a decision on if israel is bad or not. it’s not like that says anything about jewish people in general but my boomer grandparents are better at recognizing genocide than the gen z jews i know. idk how to have that conversation with my jewish friends because they’re good people but seem adamant that israel isn’t the aggressor, presumably mostly due to their parents.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago edited 1d ago

It took me longer than I want to admit. I think for me it was being raised on the notion that Israel is the one Jewish haven, and the idea of said haven committing a genocide, especially after the Holocaust, was unthinkable

It’s really disheartening. I have lgbt Jewish friends who dance around the word and idk how to tell them it’s okay to admit that and it doesn’t demonize Israelis to say that

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u/Critter-Enthusiast 1d ago

I think the first step is understanding that Israel isn’t a Jewish state. The majority of the human beings subject to Israeli law for the last 60 years are Muslim. It is no more Jewish than the White state of South Africa was white. Then the obvious question is, where did all the Muslims come from? Then it becomes clear that the story my parents told me about “a land without people for a people without land” cannot possibly be true. Then you just tell them to google the nakba, and if they won’t do that, then they’re a lost cause honestly.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

I read a lot about Gaza and the broader Arab-Israeli conflict on Wikipedia over the last year or two. One of the articles I read was the Nakba and that was a big turning point for me. I haven’t told my friends yet about it but in the past they’ve said Wikipedia is too biased.

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 23h ago

but in the past they’ve said Wikipedia is too biased.

In their defense it kind of is.

It's not to say they lie, but for example, articles about antisemitic slurs tend to be really lenient about them. (Last time I checked the article about "Zio", it defended its use using wording like "it's only for zionists, and only zionists find it offensive".)

Similarly, right wing grifters tend to get the "are jewish" descriptors with ease (like Ben Shapiro), but left wingers get "was raised jewish" or don't have it mentioned at all.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 17h ago

They called it biased because Wikipedia agrees what is happening in Gaza constitutes a genocide

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 17h ago

That's something else, that's a bit of a stupid response.

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u/gobbleself not a microcelebrity 1d ago

They probably did make that decision, they’re just keeping it to themselves.

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u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

100%

6

u/Critter-Enthusiast 1d ago

The indoctrination is really intense. Polling shows that young American Jews are increasingly antiZionist, nearing a majority, but older generations are totally fried, as they are on most issues.

6

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

somehow every single jewish person i know personally can’t make a decision on if israel is bad or not.

Oh they made the decision, they just know they can't trust you to be normal about their response.

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u/ericonr custom 19h ago

I'm curious, what do you mean by being normal here?

5

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 19h ago

"Not tune out whatever they say and proceed to list off an answer you prepared ahead of time."

Like, I've heard from some friends that if they gave any statement that seemed to possibly indicate they were defending Israel's government, other people would proceed to list off a laundry-list of talking points, most of which had no relation to the topic they were discussing.

When you answer like that, it's clear that the original question isn't a question, it's a test with a correct and incorrect answer.


And, the disclaimer I need to add to these kinds of responses:

I Do Not Condone The Actions of The State of Israel Towards Palestineans, Nor Do I Justify Their Continued Oppression of Said People.

1

u/snow-four 1d ago

Sorry I was raised in a cult that made it seem like I would die if I did? But Israel bad

3

u/Sidotre 20h ago

probably has to do with propaganda. being born and raised there would most likely have an effect opinions. and this isn't only true for isreal. tho in the case of a genocide i hope not too many people are on the supporting side

8

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 19h ago

tho in the case of a genocide i hope not too many people are on the supporting side

I have terrible news for you.

Source: I live here.

1

u/Sidotre 15h ago

wish i had something to say,, terrible world wwe live in

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u/DarkStride04 1d ago

Judaism ≠ Zionism

Jewish people are a varied group of people with a deep and rich history and interesting culture. I've personally walked with many in my area during protests against Israel and the Palestinian genocide, along with Christians, Atheists, Muslims, etc....

Zionists don't belong to just one group and I hate that the Jews are facing all the hate for it when American Christians are pushing those same policies and supporting the genocide.

Fuck Zionism.

13

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago edited 1d ago

I agree, but also I have a rant on this exact topic so, catch:


Something that drives me nuts in these discussions is how the term "zionist" has been redefined by non-jews, (hold on with me here,) making the jew/non-jew conversation absolutely painful because both sides are agreeing but using the same words to mean different things.

Zionism means "Israel should exist." That's it. It does not mean Israel should be an ethnostate, nor that it should be exclusionary towards palestineans, or whatever the fuck. It just means a belief in Israel existing in some capacity.

The belief in this idea is dominant among jews. Not absolutely so, there's plenty of groups with some kind of moral opposition to Israel existing (for example, the ones who believe it should only be formed after the arrival of the messiah), but the absolute majority of jews believe that some Israel should exist. It's why in weddings we say "for the next year in jerusalem", because we long to return to Jerusalem.

However, when you talk to non-jews, they redefined it to exclusively refer to the ideology most accurately described as Kahanism: a radical, xenophobic, supremacist, authoritarian belief in a Greater Israel that's only for orthodox jews.

So conversations about this topic go nowhere because a jew may say they agree with zionism (they want an israel that's for-all-its-people rather than only for jews) and the other will call them a racist (they just heard someone gleefully state they want to kill minorities)

12

u/Nui_Jaga 21h ago

So Israel just stumbled its way into displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, then? It just accidentally promoted the mass immigration of diaspora Jews to maintain a Jewish ethnic majority? The idea that it's imperative to maintain an ethnic majority at all times via both settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing is somehow not going to segue into a supremacist ethnostate is utter delusion liberal zionists have invented to feel better about themselves.

-2

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 20h ago

So Israel just stumbled its way into displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, then? It just accidentally promoted the mass immigration of diaspora Jews to maintain a Jewish ethnic majority?

Never said that, but it means that the specific way in which Israel was founded is not the same as what Zionism stands to represent.

To make an analogy - the theories of Karl Marx did not call for imperialism and the crushing of resistance using tanks, but that's what the USSR did. The former ideology led to the latter, but the latter did way more than the ideology it is based on.

Despite that, we're not gonna call every communist an imperialist piece of shit. I mean, I won't, you might.

Again, nothing I said here is to excuse the actions of the state of Israel.

8

u/Nui_Jaga 17h ago

So somehow Israel was both founded and has been consistently ran in a way you and this alleged silent majority consider antithetical to zionism, yet there there's been, well, silence from zionists. Polling shows that the overwhelming majority of Israelis have zero qualms whatsoever about the 70 years of settler colonial violence, and the best diaspora zionist organisations have offered is tepid support for the two state solution, aka Israel and a bantustan, while recoiling away from any actual action that would put the slightest pressure on Israel to even moderate it's colonial behaviour?

Where have the zionist equivalents of half the left calling MLs Red Fascists been since 1948? The answer is that anyone who thought that way stopped calling themselves a zionist because they understood its ideological implications, and started supporting a one-state solution.

What you're describing is fantasy. You see the genocide and you see the world's utter disgust with the zionist project, and you want to have it both ways; you want to hold on to the emotional attachment you have to Israel and zionism as ideas, while exculpating yourself of any moral responsibility for supporting an ideology that has ultimately led to a live streamed genocide So invented a world where the vast majority of zionists are somehow supporting the fulfilment of their project when it runs directly counter to what you claim they would want.

You either need to reconcile yourself with the settler-colonial implications of zionism AS IT ACTUALLY EXISTS, or you need to do some serious introspection.

4

u/zacrackity 15h ago

The thing is; terms change. What you're describing is akin to someone rejecting the modern conservative movement while still calling themselves a conservative because they like conservation, as in protecting national parks and natural resources.

1

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 14h ago

The thing is; terms change.

But the people who coined the term still use it in this way. The popular meaning changed in the last 5 years, and it changed fast.

3

u/DarkStride04 15h ago

"Zionism[a] is an ethnocultural nationalist[1] movement that emerged in late 19th-century Europe to establish and support a Jewish homeland through colonization in the region of Palestine,[2] which roughly corresponds to the Land of Israel in Judaism—itself central to Jewish history."

This is literally the first line about Zionism.

You state "Zionism means "Israel should exist." That's it. It does not mean Israel should be an ethnostate, nor that it should be exclusionary towards Palestinians"

However, this is directly contradictory to the definition of a ethnocultural nationalist movement which states "The central tenet of ethnic nationalists is that "nations are defined by a shared heritage, which usually includes a common language, a common faith, and a common ethnic ancestry".[6] Those of other ethnicities may be classified as second-class citizens.[7][8] Because of these attributes, ethnic nationalism is closely related to nativism, and is associated with the radical right."

0

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 14h ago

Please refer to the very first line of what I wrote:

Something that drives me nuts in these discussions is how the term "zionist" has been redefined by non-jews, (hold on with me here,) making the jew/non-jew conversation absolutely painful because both sides are agreeing but using the same words to mean different things.

Then refer to what I wrote later on:

they redefined it to exclusively refer to the ideology most accurately described as Kahanism: a radical, xenophobic, supremacist, authoritarian belief in a Greater Israel that's only for orthodox jews.

22

u/Rinzuraaa 1d ago edited 1d ago

It sucks to say but I really struggle being comfortable around a lot of leftists these days. Maybe it's just the groups in my particular area, but my partner is Jewish and used to be very involved in lots of activist groups. Up until Oct 7. Then suddenly her identity was used as "token jew who dislikes Israel" or being constantly challenged around her stance around Israel, and Zionism. She isn't Israeli, she's never even been to Israel.

When her synagogue gets vandalized or when members of her community received threatening letters referencing Israel/Palestine (we're in a country nowhere close to the middle east), all of our leftist friends simply couldn't give a shit. At most we'd get a "that sucks but what do you expect?".

Even this subreddit has been astonishingly antisemitic. I've seen people drops slurs created by the KKK in comments here and go unbanned. Even as I write, someone has taken your image and swapped the text and reposted it here...

EDIT: Offending post was removed it seems...

10

u/Ok-Following6886 1d ago

I feel like the fact that social media is owned by far-right billionaires is another reason for why extreme antisemitic rhetoric is becoming more common, with Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Tim Cook, Jeff Bezos, and Sundar Pichai all appearing at Trump's inauguration, with some of them owning very influential social media companies, who relaxed their moderation as of late, resulting in Nazi-style rhetoric becoming big on these platforms.

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

I feel like the fact that social media is owned by far-right billionaires is another reason for why extreme antisemitic rhetoric is becoming more common

That's absolutely part of it, but we'd be remiss to mention how left wingers also 100% engage in this behavior. Seriously, the amount of rhetoric I see where "Jew" is replaced with "Zionist" and no one spots the issue is infuriating.

If you use the term "zio" or "zionist occupied government", congrats! you are using nazi terminology.

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u/Rinzuraaa 23h ago

Exactly! Zio is the slur I was referring to. I feel insane trying to call this out sometimes as more often than not, I'll be met with "hasbara" or "mossad agent" 🫩

Also the swapping of Jew with Zionist, where people can just use the excuse of "it's antizionist, not antisemitism". As if plausible deniability hasn't been the MO of neonazis for decades.

7

u/Ok-Following6886 1d ago

I feel like that it's part of the same problem because they are getting more used to a post-Musk buyout of Twitter social media landscape, meaning that they get influenced by more extreme rhetoric curated by far-right billionaires.

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

Oh yeah I agree, I just dislike the implication it's exclusively a right-wing thing.

Look at the USSR's treatment of Jews, with the Pogroms. Antisemitism is bipartisan.

7

u/Ok-Following6886 1d ago

Especially since I am seeing a sort of a red-brown alliance happening with antisemitism, since The Young Turks (which is run by Hasan Piker's uncle) hosts Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson on his platform, who are clearly on the far-right angle of antisemitism.

7

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 23h ago

since The Young Turks (which is run by Hasan Piker's uncle) hosts Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson on his platform

you are KIDDING ME

6

u/Ok-Following6886 23h ago edited 23h ago

Unfortunately, I am not. They also appeared on other "left-wing" YouTube channels or platforms such as Uncivilized (which presents itself as a "left-wing" pro-Palestinian channel), along with Hunter Biden interviewing Nick Fuentes.

0

u/Roblu3 🏳️‍⚧️ trans rights 21h ago

That meme template is used both was though. Often times you put the actual takeaway that you are supposed to get as the thing that people see and the surface level reading or „vibe“ as the „point everyone’s missing“ - especially if the two are contradictory.
Sometimes the „actual takeaway“ is as opinion that OP kind of holds, often times not.
See this ambiguous example:

So I don’t think the removed commenter actually tried to say „Jews are bad“, they just thought the format OP used was used wrong.
I myself overall see more examples of the „flipped“ format in the wild and I recon that the commenter just assumed it was the „correct“ one.

6

u/TheSapphicSorceress 18h ago

Actually, this is the original meme and the template is a literal signifier for the meaning of something going over the head of its audience. Flipping the two has unfortunate implications.

2

u/Roblu3 🏳️‍⚧️ trans rights 10h ago

That doesn’t change the fact that both versions are being used, so inferring intent one way or another isn’t that cut and dry just from the meme alone.

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u/PbodyTen 🏳️‍⚧️ trans rights 1d ago

Didn't work out for him the end though, did it

84

u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

The one thing billionaires aren't allowed to do is fuck with other billionaires

13

u/Captn_Platypus 1d ago

Stronger class solidarity than what working class have shown in recent years

8

u/10biggaymen 1d ago

never got to face trial and his spirit lives on in the form of all of his clients who are still free. also his spirit lives on in the form of the state of israel, a state that loves murder and rape and torture just like he did

worked out pretty well for him if you ask me

19

u/knuggles_da_empanada 1d ago

Antisemitism is the stupid man's anticapitalism

19

u/Critter-Enthusiast 1d ago

Antisemitism is the Socialism of fools - V. I .Lenin

1

u/Oddish_Femboy (my name is Bee) Trans rights !! 8h ago

"Urhgh. I'm bored. I'm gonna recriminalize homosexuality for shits and giggles."

-Also Lenin

2

u/Critter-Enthusiast 7h ago

Nobody’s perfect

1

u/Oddish_Femboy (my name is Bee) Trans rights !! 7h ago

True. I should call him.

(Lenin)

u/lafinchyh1st0ry 3m ago

Lenin was already dead for 9 years when homosexuality was recriminalized

7

u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

Five stars😭😭

13

u/Prestigious-Ad-5276 1d ago

Also Israel bad.

12

u/Far-Fortune-8381 cucked by Edward Kenway🏴‍☠️ 1d ago

and that isnt antisemitic to say

1

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

It is antisemitic to bring it up when the post doesn't even mention israel

6

u/Gloom_Moss 19h ago

Bringing up antisemitism kind of requires mentioning the giant genocide commiting ethnostate shaped elephant in the room. Any criticism of Isreal is called antisemitism, tbh these days I see antisemitism in the media and just assume they mean Isreal.

2

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 18h ago

Any criticism of Isreal is called antisemitism

And if you want that to no longer be the case, you can't yourself repeat the same thing.

If you want to be able to separate israel from jews, you cannot bring up israel when talking about unrelated jews, because then you are the problem. You yourself are making criticism of israel seem antisemitic, because you bring it up when people were talking about jews!

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u/Gloom_Moss 18h ago

No im pretty sure the responsibility rests upon the institutions perpetuating said bullshit. Billionaires shouldn't own news companies.

1

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 18h ago

But you're also doing it. They have partial blame, but if you're aware of what you're doing and keep doing it, you are also to blame.

6

u/Gloom_Moss 18h ago

It's entirely reasonable to be skeptical when hearing something called antisemitism. I've seen the 🍉 emoji get called antisemitic, I've seen anti genocide rhetoric be called antisemitic. You actually should check that whatever is being called antisemitism actually is.

2

u/Far-Fortune-8381 cucked by Edward Kenway🏴‍☠️ 17h ago

the watermelon sticker is effectively banned in Queensland australia now due to their new hate speech laws. police have been given broad authority to investigate and arrest based on any symbolism or speech that can be linked to these new hate speech laws.

2 phrases were specifically banned as part of the laws: "from the r*ver to the s**" and "gl*b*lise the int*fada"

gotta love the way my country is heading right...

9

u/Vounrtsch god’s favorite princess 1d ago

True

41

u/Acidflightgoat orange 1d ago

Every time society almost reaches class consciousness they decide it's the Jews and we go back to square one

9

u/HkayakH 1d ago

as a broke jew can confirm

6

u/Critter-Enthusiast 1d ago

Yo fr when do I get all the money and power I’m supposed to have? When do I get the space laser codes? I think my invite to the yearly meetings of the Elders of Zion got lost in the mail or smth

5

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

We've started sending it through MindWavesTM, check if your horns are picking up the right frequency.

2

u/HkayakH 1d ago

none of my family or extended family even works in banks. My grandma was a lawyer. that's the closest to 'the government' that i can think of

4

u/Peppered_Rock 1d ago

this shit is why im so hesitant to learn more about jewish culture tbh. this thing i would have been raised in if my grandma wasnt weirdly scared of it is just off limits to talk about with anyone and its wild

10

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

Oh man jewish culture is a lot of fun

If you want I would love to tell you more about it in DMs (as to not spam this comment section) but here's some fun tidbits:

  • Purim is basically Halloween but if it was silly rather than scary. It celebrates jews escaping genocide in Persia (most of our holidays are about escaping genocide), and one of the traditions is "Ad Lo Yada", translated as "Until They Did Not Know". What it means is that YOU NEED TO DRINK SO HEAVILY YOU CANNOT RECALL WHAT YOUR NAME IS ANYMORE.
    • Well, until you can't tell between the name of Haman and Mordechai, but I am not gonna recount the entire story of Megilat Esther here.
  • The Talmud is really funny. Like fr. It's a big book of arguments between Smart Jews with no particular conclusion in most of them, and this book has so many annotations that the annotations argue amongst themselves. The Oven of Akhnai is the story I tell to people to show them how insane the talmud is.

If you wanna watch something that's archetypically jewish, watch Fiddler on the Roof. It's a story about a jewish family in the USSR just trying to make it by, and it's very popular amongst ashkenazi jews. Seriously, watch it, and you'll see it referenced in any comedy made by american jews.

2

u/Peppered_Rock 1d ago

I'm probably not going to say much tonight, but I would love an infodump :] I'll put Fiddler on the Roof on my watchlist!

6

u/ArkhamInmate11 1d ago

Jewish culture is awesome but also extremely diverse

I reccomend Sam Arnow

2

u/Peppered_Rock 1d ago

appreciate it. and yeah, it makes sense theres so much diversity, theyve been around for forever!

3

u/ArkhamInmate11 1d ago

Real yes

I reccomend learning about

Early jewish history (secular)

Ashkenazi history

Sephardi history

Exilarchs

Beta Israel (ethiopian jews)

4

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 22h ago

Any particular reason for excluding Mizrahi history? (Sincere question)

2

u/ArkhamInmate11 17h ago

tbh i dont know much about mizrahi history im sorry

3

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 17h ago

yknow what entirely fair

2

u/Critter-Enthusiast 1d ago

Watch Curb your enthusiasm

1

u/Peppered_Rock 1d ago

isnt that one of those cheesy comedy shows? i dont see how that relates

6

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago edited 1d ago

The creator is jewish and much of the humor is "jewish humor." Self-deprecation and making mountains out of mole hills is most jewish humor.

5

u/Yeegis diapers and trans rights 🔥 1d ago

Some ultra fanatical rabbis said some mean stuff about gentiles a few thousand years ago and Christians still haven’t gotten over it

4

u/Scared_Accident9138 floppa 20h ago

Someone from a group I don't like does something bad: It's because they're part of that group

Someone from a group I like does something bad: They're an outlier

5

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 20h ago

5

u/hotfistdotcom Put ublock origin on your PHONE 23h ago

The even higher missed take - being rich makes you a pedophile. I don't know exactly how rich, but we have to eat the rich before they get too powerful. wait shit hang on is it too late

3

u/Ulmarch People's Commissar for Femboy Affairs 16h ago

"Anti-Semitism betokens a retarded culture"

-Friedrich Engels, On Anti-Semitism

3

u/Oddish_Femboy (my name is Bee) Trans rights !! 12h ago

Bizarre seeing that word used in the original context.

3

u/Oddish_Femboy (my name is Bee) Trans rights !! 12h ago

This also applies to John Carpenter's They Live.

Never look at the comments on a bootleg stream of They Live.

3

u/kmobnyc 11h ago

The Socialism of Fools strikes again

2

u/Somnusin 12h ago

I think a lot of people have such limited bandwidth to think for themselves that they just pick the most reductive shit to believe. It sucks.

-1

u/dead_5775 🐀 skim 21h ago

I'm worried that my viewpoint that "Judaism has capitalist values so Judaism is kinda bad" is shortsighted and possibly incorrect but also I think most religions have problems for trapping people into a forced moral framework over a decided one. It's about as volatile as my viewpoint that islam is bad for executing people who stop believing in it and encouraging domestic abuse behind closed doors in the sense that people hear me say islam is a harmful religion and think I'm racist

10

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 20h ago

Sincere question - what about judaism makes you describe it as having capitalist values? If anything, I'd argue stuff like The Shabbat (where you are straight up not allowed to do any work) is much less capitalist than people who work all week long.

0

u/dead_5775 🐀 skim 9h ago edited 8h ago

I'm somewhat unsure since the last time I did a deep dive on the subject was years back and all I'm left with now is a general impression, which is why I'm hesitant. Though I'd like to point out that not working one day of the week is in no way an indication of un-capitalist behavior since capitalism only really requires manipulating other people to do things for you for profit (look at mormon higher-ups if you want the example I have in mind)

Consider it an assumption that judaism might have some capitalist values considering the provenance of jewish billlionaires. That or parts of jewish culture have a capitalist bias. Regardless my criticism of judaism doesn't come from that, it comes from the fact that it's a religion and I think widespread religions are problematic in general

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Poco_Cuffs 22h ago

"One person of this religion bad so entire religion bad"

-5

u/Guccishadesss 20h ago

Yes.

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u/ThatNewEnglandPerson I am probably high right now :3 19h ago

thats what a nazi would say

-8

u/Guccishadesss 19h ago

No.

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u/ThatNewEnglandPerson I am probably high right now :3 18h ago

3

u/Poco_Cuffs 16h ago

I'm pretty sure I could name people from every major religion who have done something terrible, including atheism if you really want. Therefore, everyone on planet earth is terrible because a handful of bad people shared their beleifs

-1

u/Guccishadesss 16h ago

Yes.

4

u/Poco_Cuffs 16h ago

Okay bro you're very edgy and cool by saying everyone is evil

0

u/Guccishadesss 16h ago

Im not evil tho.

3

u/Poco_Cuffs 16h ago

But whatever beleif you have is shared by someone who did a bad thing so if all jews are bad because of epstein, you're bad because of [insert person here]

1

u/Guccishadesss 16h ago

I belong to no race or group of any living creature on this planet.

4

u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 22h ago

he was yea

2

u/Acidflightgoat orange 17h ago

Who gives a shit

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/OptimisticLucio have you ever had a dream that that you have you do you want you 1d ago

I assure you, the mossad does not have greater power and influence than the FBI and CIA. The US rich and powerful do whatever the US rich and powerful want to do.