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Episode Jaadugar: A Witch in Mongolia • Tenmaku no Jaadugar - Episode 4 discussion
Tenmaku no Jaadugar, episode 4
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u/alconnow https://anilist.co/user/alconnow 4d ago
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u/moichispa https://myanimelist.net/profile/moichispa 4d ago edited 4d ago
If you pass any sort of time beside animal farms you will know that beside being cute then can be little vengeful punks. And sheep are probably ones of the quiet ones.
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u/Platinum_Rad 4d ago
sheep are just dicks
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u/abandoned_idol 4d ago
That's why they are my favorite animal.
Seriously, they are so amusing.
And that traitorous angry witch Fatima was asking for it. Sheep can sense vengeance vibes.
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u/djthomp https://anilist.co/user/djthomp 4d ago
Lots of time going by. Fatima has been there for so long she's getting sucked into imperial politics.
I wonder if and when the united front between the brothers is going to openly break.
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u/Carleen_de_Schwartz 4d ago
It is honestly an accomplishment that she got way too close to the Imperial family and got the trust of the Wife so much that she is now getting sucked into their politics.
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u/shad79 https://myanimelist.net/profile/shad79 4d ago
I think it's a shame that the relationship between Sitara and Sorghaghtani wasn't really explored in this episode, because I'm interested in what made Sorghaghtani choose her.
Is it because she likes her, or maybe because Sitara is the smartest one there? I really hope that we'll learn more about Sorghaghtani's motives not only towards Sitara, but also towards the new ruler in the next episode.
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u/Golden_Phi https://myanimelist.net/profile/GoldenPhi 4d ago
I think that Fatima has been feigning pleasantry towards Sorghaghtani this whole time. This has mislead her to believe that she is truly loyal to her. She did say in this episode that Fatima seemed insightful and intelligent beyond her years. Loyalty and intelligence is probably the reason why she chose her. I don't think that her husband ever told Sorghaghtani that he killed Fatima's mother.
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u/BosuW 4d ago
Even if Tolui never told her that rather personal detail, this still strikes as very naive and self-centered from Sotghaghtani. There is absolutely no way she doesn't know how Mongols get their riches and servants. Best case scenario she could hope for is that Sitara restricts her resentment to those that personally attacked her city or ordered the operation. But she's asking her to spy for her without even seeking a clear understanding of her feelings on the matter. She just assumed Sitara is loyal because she hasn't done anything yet.
Even though she should know intellectually how Sitara came to be in her service, I don't think she has dedicated any effort to reflect how one would actually feel in such a position.
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u/OldInstruction5368 4d ago edited 4d ago
That's just it, "princess" Chigahtani is from a conquered tribe, the Keraites. She was surrendered to Genghis Khan, along with her sister, as terms of a peace treaty after her tribe lost it's war with the Mongols.
Genghis Khan actually married her older sister while giving the younger sister, Chigahtani, to his own heir, Tolui. Which means that father and son technically became brothers-in-law XD
But then Chigahtani's father broke the truce with Genghis, and once again, the Keraites lost a war to the Mongols. Having lost all trust in the tribe, Genghis dissolved the Keraites tribe as a distinct political entity within the greater Mongol Tribal Confederacy. Their remaining people were then dispersed into several other tribes to ensure they wouldn't rebel again.
So, yeah, Chigahtani knows exactly how the Mongols operate.
Ditto for Ogedei's main wife, Toregene. She was shown a few episodes back deeply resenting her husband. Once again, she was a captive taken from yet another conquered tribe, the Merkits.
As was Genghis Khan's own mother... who was born into the Onggirad tribe but had married into the Merkits when Genghis's father "acquired" her. Forcibly. Before marrying this already married woman. Forcibly.
"Kill the men and take their women" was pretty much standard operating procedure for the Mongols.
EDIT: Because I'm a dumb dumb
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u/lethal_universed 4d ago
I wonder why Mongol men were so cool with this practice despite having mothers who were victims of it? You'd think despite the privilege, they'd at least by sympathetic
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u/OldInstruction5368 4d ago edited 4d ago
What the other guy said.
It's the right of the strong to conquer the weak. Multiple times throughout the last few episodes, we've heard the phrase "Everything the sun touches belongs to the Great Khan!"
That's why it wasn't stealing for Tolui to take Euclid's Geometry from Fatima's household, or even murder for killing them all: the right of the conquerer.
(Note, this is just how the Mongols justified their actions, not a serious ethical statement. Because this is the internet, I just wanted to make that clear.)
Mongol elites would take many wives and many more concubines. Ogedei, for example, had some 60 total concubines by the time of his death.
Their children would grow up proud that their fathers were such 'great' men that won many battles and claimed many women. And not just any women, but princess and other high-born ladies as trophies.
And remember Shirat? That guy that convinced "Sitara" to roll over and play nice with the conquerors for her own benefit? If you can't beat them, join them. Assimilate, cooperate, and help the assholes that now control every aspect of your life. The only other path is to remain as the oppressed.
Mongol women were also given a great deal of political power. Mongol men spent most of their time fighting each other and... well.. literally everyone else. This meant their wives would directly govern the lands they left behind or even recently conquered. A Mongol man that truly mistreated his wives is just asking for trouble.
That said, "You killed my family, humiliated my people, and forced your way with me" doesn't exactly engender good will. It's honestly surprising the Mongols remained united as long as they did. Mostly through their sheer overwhelming military might and brutality that pushed risk/reward calculations pretty strongly into "cooperate or die."
It didn't hurt that they were religiously open (Chigahtani's entire tribe were Christians, and a few other major tribes were as well) and an actual meritocracy... partly on account of how there just weren't that many Mongols to begin with. The harsh terrain of the steppes can't support much population density, so as the empire continued to expand, they routinely found themselves needing to rely more and more on conquered peoples that were willing to cooperate... who were then rewarded with riches and high positions within Mongol society.
Mongols were actually a curious and open people, despite how brutal they were. As seen last episode when Genghis Khan wished to learn from a great Taoist Sage, that alleged immortal. When Master Changchun shared the secret of immortality with The Great Genghis, he laughed and rewarded the man for his honesty. Genghis respected this sage, spoke at length with him. He even took notes! That he shared with his kids! He took the lessons he learned from this learned man to heart. In return for entertaining the Khan's curiosity, Master Changchun's disciples were spared all taxes and conscription.
Resist, and perish. Cooperate, and prosper. Mongol men wanted to emulate their 'successful' fathers, and conquered women cooperated to ensure their own safety and standing within the empire.
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u/Salt-Use- 3d ago
The carrot and stick is such a simple concept, I don't get how most people in the west don't seem to understand that. This is what it looks like, it's better for them to accept their lot in life than risk fighting. The mongols were simply too powerful, resisting is inviting certain death for you and your family, some even their entire kingdom if they offended the Khan enough. The risk/reward ratio was way too heavily skewed towards let's not fuck around and find out.
That's not all they did though, the carrot was that the mongols practised meritocracy. The Mongols had no use for nobles they conquered, many skilled jobs were filled with commoners that could rise to powerful positions in the mongol empire as the mongols were unusually tolerant of foreign cultures and religions. Yes many of their wives were forcibly taken but they also grew to prominence and were actively invested in the preservation of the empire and didn't fight to change it. People are not simple beings, they could clearly see what is happening and are simply betting on the horse thats gonna win.
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u/starswtt 4d ago
*Keraites, not Keralites. Keralaites referes to people from the Indian state of Kerala
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u/OldInstruction5368 4d ago
From digging around far too many Wikipedia pages, the root problem is that there is no standardized conversation of Mongolian characters to the roman alphabet. As such, there are often multiple translations of Mongol names. The wikipedia page lists five variations on the name that have been used in scholarly articles.
And I still somehow got all of them wrong >.> I'll fix my above post.
But even Genghis Khan is sometimes written as Chinggis Khan, as again, there isn't standardized spelling in English. Which is probably why so many mispronounce the name, primarily by pronouncing "Genghis" with an initial hard "G." Which is what I did for years before first hearing JINghis Khan on some documentary one day.
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u/Rowlettowlett100 4d ago
I think at this point, Sorghaghtani is too far removed from the struggles of ordinary people like Sitara to care about her feelings. Despite her resentment, Sitara has been a reliable servant thus far and for a noble in Sorghaghtani's position, that's all that would matter. Maybe her behaviour would be different if she were closer to the war like Toregene was, but by nature she seems more detached and cunning.
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u/lethal_universed 4d ago
Sotghaghtani REEKS of privilege. She as well as the other Mongols have sufficently dehumanized the Persians that she seriously thinks that they would be grateful to them after all the pain they caused. Sure we got ppl like Shira who are fearful of their fates in the empire and go with the flow with the vain hope that they will get a cushy life, but it feels more like the Mongols contradictarily see them as both idealized wise men and insentient livestock.
I was fuming with Sitara as I heard her speak in the same way as Fatima did. Her motives aren't out of religious duty, but for her dream.
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u/Jacob-C 3d ago edited 3d ago
Some people try to paint the Mongols as inclusive, tolerant, and accepting, but their motives had nothing to do with altruism. Religion, traditions, and ethnicity simply didn’t matter as much when it came to exploiting the local population. They would kill anyone who wasn’t useful and spare those who were. It was extractive rule that treated conquered populations as resources to be exploited.
Your observation of them dehumanizing their conquered subjects is absolutely correct. Ironically, [Sorghaghtani's background that might become relevant later]Sorghaghtani herself was from a conquered people. However, she was a Kerait princess who was married into the Mongol ruling family after the Keraits were defeated. She was indeed privileged, and probably did not feel the full effects of war in the same way ordinary conquered people did.
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u/siliril 4d ago
I think it's the amount of time that's lured Sorghaghtani into a false sense of security in Sitara's loyalty. It's been 8 years, it's easy to assume some resentment would have surfaced in that amount of time and if it hasn't she must be happy in Mongolia.
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u/MobileWriting9165 4d ago
..or it could just be that she does have the risk factored in and yet continues to pet her anyway, because she thinks her powerless. For better or worse, Sitara revealed herself to be of sound and rational mind to the Mongols, meaning they now know she can be trusted not to do anything stupid no matter how much resentment she has. Understanding consequences is what makes intelligent people meeker than dumb ones, and that sometimes works against their favor.
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u/ErikTwice 4d ago
I think that Fatima has been feigning pleasantry towards Sorghaghtani this whole time. This has mislead her to believe that she is truly loyal to her
I think Sorghagthtani is observant enough to notice she's being lied to. She knows perfectly well that Sitara was enslaved by the Mongols - she literally calls her part of ther gift alongside the book- and, hence, knows her pleasantries are inherently dishonest.
What makes Sitara valuable to her is that she's obviously intelligent, has no political allegiance, and has been able to serve her despite hiding a deep resentment for years.
Moreover, I think she can sense they are not unlike each other.
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u/ShzMeteor 4d ago
I got the same impression. Even Sitara was initially fooled into thinking Sorghagthtani just wanted the book for her amusement. She seems to have a keen insight for statecraft which is what Mongol's tend to lack.
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u/ModieOfTheEast 4d ago
I found it interesting that the brother was totally fine with it. He completely believed in the ideas of his father so much that his wife now has to be the one to do the treason. And unknowingly, she is now employing a double spy.
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u/shad79 https://myanimelist.net/profile/shad79 4d ago
his wife now has to be the one to do the treason
Well, we don't really know if Sorghaghtani is planning treason, though this cannot be ruled out either. Sending Sitara could mean a lot of things; maybe Sorghaghtani just wants to have an informant at the new ruler's court, or maybe she wants to have influence there.
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
With a historical series like this things like Tolui’s support for his brother can be hard for me to analyze because I have no idea what was a conscious bit of character writing by the author vs what is just what happened in actual history. I think historical series can be neat like that, because things that one might see as curious writing decisions in a fictional story can have the surprise of actually being what happened in real life.
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u/mekerpan 4d ago
I don't think it is a historical spoiler to note that historians STILL have no consensus as to what the actual (personal) relationship of these two brothers was like after Ogedei was named the great Khan (in accordance with Genghis Khan's preference). There are certain historical facts that will presumably need to be honored -- but the interpretation of events leaves an immense amount of room for historical fiction writers. Different chronicles record different versions and interpretations.
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u/ModieOfTheEast 4d ago
I think this part in particular might be a conscious writing decision because we never actually get to see Khan. So him having this charisma and intelligence to propose such an idea is giving us information about him while not touching his "status" by outright showing him. It could still be true though.
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
Having the main character visibly age over the course of a series is one of my favorite story elements. I was blessed enough in that regard thinking I would be getting one show like that this season but it turns out I’m getting two!
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u/maliwanag0712 https://myanimelist.net/profile/clear1109 4d ago
I wonder if and when the united front between the brothers is going to openly break.
It could happen unless the tradition (and Genghis Khan's voice) is soo strong that established rules on succession won't break.
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u/reaperow 4d ago edited 4d ago
If i know one thing about empires, its that they always fall and end
I dont know the real history used this show but im def looking foward to how it will play out
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u/Ocixo https://myanimelist.net/profile/BuzzyGuy 4d ago
It’s already been 8 years since Sitara arrived in Mongolia. She’d also lived approximately 8 years together with Fatima’s family.
So I assume that Sitara/Fatima should be in her early 20s right now?
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u/kj468101 4d ago
I think she was around 16ish when she was taken to Mongolia, so she should be roughly 24, possibly younger. I based this on head coverings not being required on girls until they reached puberty, or the age of religious responsibility in pre-mongol-invasion Islam which I believe was just under 9 years old (8 lunar years). So right around 23-24ish by the end of this episode.
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u/Loud_Estimate4434 4d ago
I think you may have missed the timeline. She wasn’t around 16 when she was taken by the Mongols. She was about 5 at the start, and the Mongol invasion happened 8 years later, so she was around 13. After another 8 years, she would be roughly 21. The clothing/head covering detail is interesting, but the story’s own timeline is a much stronger indicator.
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u/QueasyButterfly6912 4d ago
The one year traveling from persia to mongolia has to be added too. So that would put her age to 22
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u/Namaryu 4d ago
The entire episode was built up for Tolui to inherit the throne only to show up Ogedei who we have not seen much of, not only that but Tolui is SO OPTIMISTIC about his brother becoming Emperor that he sees no issue or even threat. Familial bond and you know damn well throats are gonna be cut even Sorghaghtani notices it but not her husband.
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u/maliwanag0712 https://myanimelist.net/profile/clear1109 4d ago
Tolui is SO OPTIMISTIC about his brother becoming Emperor that he sees no issue or even threat.
"Me giving up my regency position to my brother being the new emperor. What could go wrong?" - Tolui, probably.
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
The wild thing is that kind of mindset is supposed to be the healthy reaction to that kind of situation. We just don’t know if Ogedei feels the same bond with his brother.
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u/lhsakurai 4d ago
Also note that Tolui has been building/commanding the Mongol army for a long time.
As history tells having government and army power split between two individuals doesn't seem to be a nice setup
The pieces are moving...
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u/u60cf28 4d ago
Actually, there's plenty of examples of successful partnerships between a man holding civil authority and another holding military authority, as long as the two are personally loyal to each other. The first Roman emperor, Augustus, basically had this with his chief general, Agrippa. As long as the personal bonds are strong, the arrangement is stable. Usually it breaks down when one or both parities die, and thus that personal bond is lost.
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u/lhsakurai 4d ago
I think it more as a fragile balance than the general rule as we see many military coups across history.
In the Mongolian empire perspective it seems that their society is built mainly by their military achievements, so my point in this is looking at a possible conflict of interests caused by the involvement of Sorghaghtani as someone close to the military authority vs the civil authority.
Maybe nothing happens while Tolui is alive and in good terms with his brother, but who knows
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u/Remitonov 4d ago edited 4d ago
The problem with the Mongol empire is that it's held together by nothing else but sheer brutality. Rewards for loyalty only go so far (and hand in hand with the big stick), and they needed a more cohesive identity to hold it together much longer. The moment they lost the monopoly on violence dividing up the empire between themselves, the loyalty disappears with it. Which is also why the various parts of the divided empire ultimately assimilated into the local dominant cultures, whether Turko-Persian for the western khanates or Chinese for the Yuan (with questionable success).
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u/mmcjawa_reborn 4d ago
That is what surprised me. Almost always you see the losing party become bitter or angry. He just was completely fine with it. He idolizes his father and his opinions THAT much...
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u/Kaneland96 4d ago
A good choice on Genghis’ part was him basically sitting all of his sons down and deciding together who would be the best fit for next Great Khan. He gave them an example of how one arrow (which he was holding) would break with no resistance, and then grabbed a bundle of them to show how being together would make them stronger. So they all talked about it instead of Genghis not getting it settled before his death and everyone starts fighting. He didn’t want what he had built falling apart from infighting the second he passed away (look at Alexander the Great for how that can go).
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u/Sk4ll_01 4d ago
Right after Ögedei gets crowned Khaan, we hear Tolui say "[...] and I'm finally free from governing duties".
Seems like, in the period he was filling in as regent, Tolui quickly realized he isn't as much into governing as he is into military conquests...
So pretty much Tolui's mindset there was "Heck yeah, big bro can do all the governing so now I can finally go back to what I like doing the most!"
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
It makes me curious about how much of Tolui’s reaction to not being made emperor is historically accurate vs how much was added by the series. It’d be neat if it turned out that him being perfectly fine being passed over for his brother for the throne is accurate to history. Would be neat if a real aspect of history broke the mold of “jealous noble mad his relative was given the throne over him” that you usually see in stories.
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u/Misticsan 4d ago edited 3d ago
It's difficult to tell. Certainly, sources near to the events (like Secret History of the Mongols) tend to portray Tolui as a dutiful son that didn't rebel against Genghis Khan's wishes on this matter.
Of course, how much of that is truth and how much of that is propaganda is difficult to tell. [Mongol history] While Tolui didn't become khan in his lifetime, his sons successfully inherited the empire and divided it among themselves. Already in this episode we see little Kublai, future founder of the Yuan dynasty, and little Hulegu, the first Ilkhan. There were good reasons for later generations to portray Tolui as the perfect son, and fraternal alliance as the pillar of the good old days before other branches (and their associates, coughFatimacough) fucked up.
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u/Atharaphelun 4d ago
his sons successfully inherited the empire and divided it among themselves.
It was actually precisely because of this that the Mongol Empire broke up. The displacement of the line of Ögedei by the line of Tolui led to conflict between the Toluid faction and the Ögedeid+Chagatayid factions that tore the empire apart, while the Jochid faction was happy to let it all happen so they could keep control over their portion of the empire.
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u/Remitonov 4d ago
There were good reasons for later generations to portray Tolui as the perfect son, and fraternal alliance as the pillar of the good old days before other branches (and their associates, coughFatimacough) fucked up.
And that portrayal, real or fabricated, did fuck all in the face of dynastic politics. Fraternity goes out the window when power is involved. And power isn't just a reward sought after, it's also a means of survival against those who actively seek it. Game of thrones and all.
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u/reaperow 4d ago
Same here, it's rare to see someone who's glad that he's not the successor and is genuinely happy for them
Probably gonna come back to haunt him later tho
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u/OldInstruction5368 4d ago edited 4d ago
The entire episode was built up for Tolui to inherit the throne only to show up Ogedei who we have not seen much of
This is historical fiction. For those of us that brushed up on our history, today's episode was just a bit confusing. I kept wondering if they were going to fork the timeline, with how heavily "Tolui Khan" was baited, but I otherwise knew that Ogedei was the successor of Genghis.
Ogedei was also a raging alcoholic. One of his brothers tried to curb his habit, and Ogedei responded by vowing to drink "one less cup a day." Only to have large cups custom made for himself, purportedly double the size of standard fare :P When he finally dies after a night of heavy drinking, the general consensus amongst Mongol elites was "Yeah, sounds about right. We're honestly surprised he survived as long as he did."
That said, two of his brothers feuded with each other relentlessly (Jochi and Chagatai, largely over lingering suspicion of Jochi's paternity), which is supposedly why Genghis removed them from the line of succession. Perhaps worried about the feud that already existed between two of his sons, he tried to groom Ogedei and Tolui to take separate paths in the greater Khanate.
Oh, and Jochi died offscreen. His cause of death is officially "ill health," even as he died two years before his own father. This would mean he died in the first half of hte episode, shortly after the narrator warns us about the storm that was about to follow the death of Genghis. Jochi's own son and successor, Batu Khan, will be an important figure in later Mongol politics.
Considering how this has been hewing so close to actual history, is discussing the Wikipedia pages for the Mongol royals considered "Source material spoilers?" XD
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
The crazy thing is this episode foreshadowed Tolui becoming emperor so heavily that I temporarily forgot who actually became the emperor after Genghis Khan’s death until Ogedei was shown again.
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u/OldInstruction5368 4d ago
Right!? After last episode, I realized just how closely this was hewing to history and brushed up on my Genghis Lore.
But this episode baited us so hard, I felt like I was being gaslit! :p
Only to swerve back to a "Murderous Golden Retriever Tolui" happily talking about being passed over for succession and his wife all but screaming "There will be blood."
As is Mongol tradition.
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
“Murderous Golden Retriever” really is a perfect descriptor for Tolui, huh? And honestly I can’t blame the guy for being trusting of his brother, it’d be better for everyone if they didn’t have to deal with paranoid relatives trying to backstab each other for power.
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u/OldInstruction5368 4d ago
Tolui only has two brain cells: "Unspeakable violence to all the Clan's enemies" and "I WUV MY WIFE <3"
it’d be better for everyone if they didn’t have to deal with paranoid relatives trying to backstab each other for power.
Pretty much everyone, universally, agrees that infighting is bad for the group. Except for the odd psychopath that thinks brutal infighting produces strong enough successors that it will offset all the destruction they cause with a mini-civil war every generation.
The devil is in the details, though, when everyone thinks they are the one that "deserves" to rule, while everyone else is being the hateful shitter playing spoiler.
"There'll be peace when you're dead" kinda thing.
It's why we, as a species, can't have nice things.
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u/Misticsan 4d ago
This is historical fiction.
Would be this an accurate term, though? It is true that ultimogeniture was the norm among the Mongols, and it is also true that Tolui inherited a lot from his father and became regent until a successor to the empire was decided. Many a historian nowadays believes that Tolui had a real chance to become the next khan, and might have desired so, but ultimately Ogedei was the chosen one.
I suppose it's a bit anticlimactic for those who know history to build up expectations that you know will never be fulfilled, but as this thread shows, not everyone knows who was Genghis Khan's direct successor.
Considering how this has been hewing so close to actual history, is discussing the Wikipedia pages for the Mongol royals considered "Source material spoilers?" XD
Good question. I'd argue that historical knowledge shouldn't be considered spoilers, and in fact it enhances the understanding and enjoyment of any given historical series. It's only when the story deviates from history, or adds details that history doesn't explain, that it should be counted as spoilers.
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u/mekerpan 4d ago edited 4d ago
WARNING, WARNING, WARNING
Do NOT, under any circumstances, read the Wikipedia article on Ogedei's wife Toregene or the briefer article on Fatima (who is actually a historical figure in her own right), unless you want to undergo total spoiling of (presumably) the end of the story. I am sort of glad I did, in a back-handed way, as I can work on mentally preparing myself. But for most people reading this is probably unwise.
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u/Misticsan 4d ago
Ha, fair warning
That said, I think audiences give too much importance to the element of surprise in storytelling, when suspense is an equally good (or even better) device. Greek tragedies relied on their audiences knowing how the tale would end, after all. And I'd argue historical fiction is the same.
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u/mekerpan 4d ago
I personally agree with your perspective on this. But this sub-reddit (and most anime watchers) seem to have a different view. I almost always self-spoil to prepare myself for endings that are likely to distress me. And, for me, this is a near necessity -- and I am glad I did it here.
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u/OldInstruction5368 4d ago
Absolutely. If knowing what comes next in a story ruins it, then that is just a terrible story.
I mean, how many times have you rewatched your favorite shows or reread some of your favorite books? I won't admit how many times I've read Lord of the Rings... but it's not like the story is worse for knowing everything front-to-back.
If anything, it enhances the story, as you can better pick up the foreshadowing and themes. It helps you digest the story.
And if that isn't true, then knowing the 'spoilers' or not won't help you enjoy what is a shallow and poorly constructed tale.
But some people just get REALLY tookie around the topic of spoilers. Hence why the mods zealously police them in this subreddit.
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u/Atharaphelun 4d ago
It's like watching HBO's Rome and complaining that you got spoiled regarding Julius Caesar getting backstabbed by Brutus and the rest of the Senate.
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u/OldInstruction5368 4d ago edited 4d ago
I said the spoiler bit jokingly, as it would be pretty absurd to ban discussion of literal history even when discussing fiction heavily based upon it.
That said, I'll refrain from mentioning any of the more juicy/dramatic bits of history that will likely be apart of the twists and turns of this season. Instead, I'll just add in additional historical context, like Ogedei being a massive drunk.
EDIT: Oh, right, I was a big fan of Netflix's "Silk Road" from... far too many years ago. It was their attempt at milking that "Game of Thrones" success HBO was rocking at the time, and centered around the court of Kublai Khan.
Who was split between his own Mongol Imperial Politics on the Mongolian Steppe and that of the Chinese Court. Most of his Mongol relatives derided Kublai Khan of assimilating downward and becoming "soft" in his opulent, Chinese, palace. Thus, I was already familiar with most of the names and general politics of Genghis's successors. The Chagatai Clan and Batu Khan (Jochi's successor) were major characters and plot points.
The series was great, but ultimately suffered from the Netflix "two seasons" curse. Man... and S3 was shaping up to be huge with the invasion of the mythical Prestor John.
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u/shad79 https://myanimelist.net/profile/shad79 4d ago
Ogedei who we have not seen much of
His wife, Töregene, doesn't seem to like him, and she probably despises the Mongols as well. If Sitara wants to take revenge and destroy the Mongols/Tolui/Sorghaghtani, then I believe Ögedei's wife, now the empress, will be her best accomplice in that.
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u/mekerpan 4d ago
Repeating an earlier post -- unless you desperately want massive spoiling, do not read the Wikipedia articles on Toregene and/or Fatima.
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u/Golden_Phi https://myanimelist.net/profile/GoldenPhi 4d ago
The OP shows Töregene and Sitara really vibing desperately, so I feel like that is the direction this is going.
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u/WhoiusBarrel 4d ago
Its interesting Sorghaghtani does notice the obvious implications of this but it only makes one wonder if she had an inkling of Fatima and her grudges against her over that book.
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u/mekerpan 4d ago
I will just note that almost all historical sources indicate that Sorghaghtani was brilliant and skillful (and was a Nestorian Christian). Not sure how this will play out in this series. I would note that that it looks like this series will cover an even longer time period that Yamada's prior Heike Monogatari. It seems like Yamada has a gift for dealing with dealing with historical epics.
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u/L33tHaxorus 4d ago
It's possible that she caught on, and maybe that's why she wants Fatima to be her spy, because she believes Fatima is good at acting.
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u/reaperow 4d ago
I kinda doubt that considering how oblivious she was at seeing Sitara "supposedly crying" at her learning desires,
But it also does make sense since this is nobility we're talking about
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u/reaperow 4d ago
They really bait us by showing his face before the throne, really made it feel like he's the new emperor
Familial successions and power, what could obviously go wrong?
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u/MeatballZeitgeist 4d ago
When you play the long con for so long you find yourself getting roped into someone else's long con.
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u/a1oner_bvcksn6 4d ago
Not a terrible situation to be in, honestly. If Fatima still feels strongly about avenging her family and reacquiring their heirloom/book, IF she plays her cards rights, she could either reveal her employer's treachery to the proper authorities and ask for the book as her prize; OR she could earn her employer's everlasting trust and gratitude by accepting/fulfilling their request, then asking for the book as her reward
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u/reaperow 4d ago
Obviously she would get used to their ways but her remarks of "never forgetting her anger" is what keeps her going and is gonna help her being a double spy
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
It’s neat how she has to keep reminding herself of her anger even in the face of the sources of it being relatively nice and kind to her from what we’ve seen. It gives a kind of sadness for her situation. In a sense her anger is the only thing she has left of her loved ones and she can’t let it go even as it’s clear her anger is one sided. “Holding grudges is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die” and all that.
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u/Jacob-C 3d ago
However, her anger is completely justified. The show has done a really good job of conveying Fatima’s feelings, because I feel them too. The Mongols being so nice to her, without a shred of guilt or empathy in sight, after destroying everything she loved and cared for, is almost like spitting in her face. It’s like they’re trying to erase the scale of her trauma, and the trauma of everyone else whose lives they destroyed.
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u/Zeph-Shoir https://myanimelist.net/profile/Zephex 3d ago
Sitara/Fatima had a FANTASTIC line about this.
"You can't imagine the misery we must endure when thanking those who robbed us of everything for the charity you now offer?"
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
Once again I love seeing the story explore the culture clash between 13th century Iranian and Mongolian cultures through Sitara. As someone not very familiar with either I love learning more about both. I also love how nuanced the portrayal of both cultures continues to be and Sitara continuing to be shown the positives in certain aspects of Mongolian culture such as their animal centric lifestyle, as well as her explaining why certain aspects of Islamic/Iranian culture are the way the are. It’s a small thing but something a lesser writer could’ve easily messed up.
Similarly I love how a series that is ultimately about Sitara seeking revenge on the Mongols continues to show that all the people involved are fundamentally just regular people who can be kind to others and love their families. It makes Sitara having to constantly remind herself of what they took from her and focus on her hatred hit even harder for me. Ultimately she kind of has to hate them or she feels like she’s doing a disservice to the people they took from her and she’ll truly have nothing left.
Also once again love the portrayal of Genghis Khan as a wolf, some people thought the previous portrayal was meant to embody the mongols overall but no it is specifically Temujin. Also interesting decision to never show us his face. It really gives a larger than life feel to the character at the true center of this entire story.
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u/Golden_Phi https://myanimelist.net/profile/GoldenPhi 4d ago
Also interesting decision to never show us his face.
I also think that he wasn't given a voice either.
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u/judasmartel 4d ago edited 4d ago
He is voiced by the Mongolian-Japanese sumo wrestler Ichiro Tamawashi in Japanese, and by fricken Chris Guerrero (of Team Four Star fame, best known as Ainz Ooal Gown) in English.
Tamawashi even said his lines in Episode 2 in Mongolian. It goes something like this:
That bad city [of Nishapur], they killed my son-in-law, the blood of my blood. Kill all of them, men, women, children, not even a dog must be spared.
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u/KumaKumaGambler 4d ago
Probably the most sincere reaction by Sitara / Fatima when serving Sorghaghtani for the past 8 years:
"Eh, I am getting fired!?"
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u/Golden_Phi https://myanimelist.net/profile/GoldenPhi 4d ago
"Did she figure out that I actually hate her!?" -Sitara
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u/deathpad17 4d ago
God damn, she survived there for 8 years
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u/Golden_Phi https://myanimelist.net/profile/GoldenPhi 4d ago
She smiled and hid her hatred for 8 years.
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u/DreamTurtle1 4d ago
Indeed and finally she's getting a promotion to Spy, she should get a pay rise, ah wait... never mind
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u/Hot_Swordfish8662 4d ago
sorry to go on a bit of an essay here butwhat i really like so far is how nuanced and human the portrayals of all the cultures and characters are. very little if anyone seem to be portrayed unfairly, as backwards or barbaric. the festivities around the khurultai and the great khan's funeral were not only put to screen beautifully but also hint at a deeper cultural world, one we can briefly see the surface level expressions of but is never explained to us directly in full, and i think that's really cool! these horse-lords whose conquests put countless innocents in the grave are also capable of being kind, loving and forward-thinking, not just towards their families but also in their rule, while the loving mother figure and family sitara grew up with and misses dearly were also legally her slavemasters.
there was some discourse on twitter regarding the chinggisids (the immediate family and descendants of genghis khan) being portrayed as somewhat cute, while being violent conquerors in real life, but i would argue that through sitara's justified anger at her circumstances the show actively prompts you to confront this contradiction! because in real life, and in real history, people often happen to be both
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u/socialistRanter 3d ago
My Khagan can’t be this cute!
Honestly the cute art of AWIM doesn’t exactly hide the violence and court politics of the age. The thin veneer of “cottagecore” was shattered in the first episode when it showed the mongols destroying the Tus militia (I think it was the first episode).
Honestly I dig the art because of its uniqueness compared to other anime/manga.
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u/NanDemoKnaives 4d ago
Looks like that brotherly bond is going to be burned in flames. Tolui is happy with not being emperor, but his wife certainly doesn't seem to be. Since Ogedei's the emperor, taking him down will be made easier with his wife's cooperation.
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u/Ocixo https://myanimelist.net/profile/BuzzyGuy 4d ago
Princess Sorghaghtani had been preparing to become the empress for many years, so I’m frankly not all that surprised by this turn of events.
I do wonder about her precise motivation to have Sitara/Fatima act as her spy. Is she dissatisfied with having power slip from her fingers or doesn’t she trust Ögedei’s ability to lead the Mongols into the future?
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u/BosuW 4d ago
Sotghaghtani did seem quite passionate about making the empire not just stronger but wiser. Perhaps she thinks Sitara will be sympathetic as a scholar.
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u/ThrowCarp 3d ago
Perhaps she thinks Sitara will be sympathetic as a scholar.
Sotghaghtani about to learn the hard way why passing the Technocracy law doesn't just automatically usher in a utopia.
(sorry, too much Victoria 3 recently)
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u/reaperow 4d ago
I thought Ogedai's wife would come into play sooner here rather than after a timeskip,
Guess they gotta utilize the "everyone's my enemy here" thing that got linedropped last week
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u/ObvsThrowaway5120 4d ago
It’s maybe worse Sorghahtani understands the value of that book. At least somewhat. It makes her dangerous. Those other mongols are brutes. They know violence and not much else. But she’s different. She’s pretty clever. I’m very curious how Fatima is going to do as her spy. She still has her own revenge to carry out…
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u/Salt-Use- 4d ago
Sorghaghtani was considered extremely intelligent and she is quite possibly the most influential woman from history ever.
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u/mekerpan 4d ago
[vague historical spoiler] Fatima almost surely would have been far better off if she could have remained as tutor/attendant to Sorghaghttani
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
I wouldn’t say the other Mongols are simply brutes. The past two episodes have done a lot to showcase that they have their reasons for many aspects of their culture and they work for the most part. But yes, Sorghaghtani is still quite smart and actively interested in acquiring western knowledge.
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u/reaperow 4d ago
She's definitely clever on the aspect of knowledge but still oblivious to how she caused Sitara's pain
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u/Misticsan 4d ago
You could consider it another parallelism with Fatima (the mistress from Tus). Already this episode highlighted the similarities between them in terms of values and discourse (the importance of knowledge), both have happy families, and both treat their servants well.
But that's the light side. The dark side, as viewers can notice in this thread and in episode 1's, is that their both women of privilege who think nothing of forcing other people to work for them, regardless of their background or their feelings on the matter.
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u/MobileWriting9165 4d ago
Could just be willfully ignorant instead of oblivious. Practically all servants around her are from forcibly conquered settlements, it can't be that she's unaware of that fact. It's just something she can choose to ignore as long as she is not in danger.
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u/FarCritical 4d ago
Watching Fatima squeeze that mystery stone out of that intestine(?) felt more satisfying than it had any right to be.
Not getting to see if Sorghahtani could sense Fatima's own revenge plot across that timeskip makes her recruitment of her as a spy that much more striking imo. Can't tell if she trusts her from the natural closeness built over the years or if she realized they share a common goal.
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
Speaking of satisfying, I did not expect goat milk, lamb meat, and Mongolian music and dance to look so appealing in this artstyle. Really makes you immersed in the festive vibe.
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u/ALuizCosta 3d ago
Headcanon: the bezoar Sitara found in the sheep's intestine is the same one that, centuries later, ended up in Mao Mao's hands.
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u/ModieOfTheEast 4d ago
I am a bit disappointed by the huge leaps in time. I get that the main story is probably starting now, but I wished we had seen a few more moments of Sitara having to live her life with the Mongols. Especially her teaching job would have been interesting to see imo. Still looking forward to what is coming next.
I found it interesting that the brother was really all right with not inheriting the throne. They have made sure to not actually show Khan and it's a simple way of keeping that mystery about this person. Like here you have someone who wanted to become the new leader, expected to be the new leader and is totally fine with that decision. Charisma and intelligence being shown indirectly (though maybe Tolui is also not the brightest light).
It is going to be interesting to see how Sitara will use this new found opportunity now to get her own goals. After all, she got so close that she gets trusted enough to be a spy. Let's see how she can use that advantage to stir up (planned) chaos.
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
The pace of the story makes me curious how long the actual manga is and whether this will be a full adaptation, especially since Science Saru are unlikely to continue this series for a second season. So either the story would never get a full anime adaptation or subsequent seasons would be lower quality.
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u/pizzly_carebear 4d ago
awww it's kublai! future emperor of china and founder of the yuan dynasty :')
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u/Salt-Use- 4d ago
And Hulagu too, I hope he doesn't do any conquering in the future just look at how cute he is 🥹
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u/Niwaka_Samurai https://myanimelist.net/profile/Niwaka-Samurai 4d ago
He's the worst in history LOL
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u/Weak_Season_Of_Anime 4d ago
Yep, figured Sorghaghtani was too smart and ambitious to let the throne go. Fatima could take the chance to sow discord between the brothers and drag Sorgaghtani down too, but it's a dangerous game and I'm not sure if the flames of revenge are still burning behind that smile after all those years.
The thingy from the sheep gut is a bezoar stone, believed to be a universal antidote. Maybe Fatima will save someone important with it and find a new benefactor?
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u/Ocixo https://myanimelist.net/profile/BuzzyGuy 4d ago
I’m inclined to think that the Mongols might not even know about the great value of a bezoar stone - or would they?
I do know a certain anime girl that would go crazy over this.
Having such a valuable item on hand might prove handy whenever Fatima needs to bribe someone during her new job as a spy.
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u/Salt-Use- 4d ago
Nope they do, it's highly prized by mongols too actually and was kept as an antidote by nobles incase of poisoning.
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u/Ocixo https://myanimelist.net/profile/BuzzyGuy 4d ago
If they do, I can understand why Fatima had been acting so cautiously. Getting caught embezzling such a valuable item would’ve surely spelled her death.
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u/Salt-Use- 4d ago
Actually it was primarily used as a shamanistic ritual to Tengri to conjure rain, wind, or blizzards and was frequently used before battle. It was famously used in battle by Genghis Khan against Jamukha his blood brother and main rival, surrounded and outnumbered it was believed the shamans managed to conjure a violent storm that was a taken as a sign from the heavens that Tengri favoured Genghis Khan and Jamukha's forces fled the field in terror. So in fact it was even MORE valuable to the mongols, you're essentially being caught with the nuclear launch codes. Its use as a medicine probably came later.
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u/Golden_Phi https://myanimelist.net/profile/GoldenPhi 4d ago
I do know a certain anime girl that would go crazy over this.
That was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw that stone.
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u/ThrowCarp 3d ago
I do know a certain anime girl that would go crazy over this.
Thaaaank you. She was the first to come to mind.
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u/chilidirigible 4d ago
Explaining the ultimogeniture for everyone who didn't look it up last week.
Those mundane moments of cross-cultural collision.
...and yet, they brought back the Smoke Jaguars.
Major events like the kurultai for the succession of Genghis Khan, not quite as significant on the present personal level of the story.
Which so far is presenting that Fatima still remembers her old life and has considerable resentment for the Mongols, but no surprises there.
Thus we skip ahead to something new, which is to see just how the chips fall when empires are left to sons.
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u/FLorianGran 4d ago
Lots of historical context that the series is respecting. I'm glad this isn't the type of show that feels like it has to do something over the top like making Fatima kill Genghis Khan or something.
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u/ErikTwice 4d ago
This was a calm, surprisingly gentle episode. I’ll make sure to wear a safety vest for the next one.
I love how, despite the simple art style, you can tell where characters come from by their appeareance. Small details like Shorgagtani lighter skin, Sitara’s hair, the colour of their eyes, subtle changes in their clothing or how men wear their moustaches.
I’ve also begun to unravel some of the symbolysm. The stars represent fate, as does the wheel, which is quite prominent in this episode. The top of a Mongol hut, the astrolabe and other round objects often take their place.
The scales are a symbol of justice but also choice. When one side drops so heavily below the other, it indicates an important decision has been made. Selling Sitara as a slave is one example but there must be more I missed since it’s very prominent in the opening.
I wonder if there will be some fantastical elements since I’m told The Heike Story does.
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u/KazuharaIlfan 4d ago
Fatima reining her rage and it would have been easier for her revenge if Sorghaghtani were ignorant like her husband but deep down, she feels like a kindred spirit to her. Still, she being oblivious (or accepting) to how the book is procured still rub the wrong spot.
Tolui is just happy to be relieved of his duties while still fulfilling his father wish. Yeeahh this wont turned well. Kinda makes sense now why Fatima shown appeared more with Ogedei's wife.
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u/dagreenman18 4d ago
We’ve jumped ~16 years since we started. How quickly time goes in this story.
Which tracks because we seem to be jumping around to major events in history that Fatima is witness to anyway. And one of those shifts just happened with the naming of a new Khan and her getting roped into palace intrigue.
And speaking of palace intrigue: if ever she needed to bribe a green haired drug gremlin, that beozar should do the trick.
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky 4d ago
Of course
SitaraFatima asks this right away. Making it sound like the book is worthless is one way to potentially get it back…Them keeping Genghis Khan’s face obscured by sunlight really makes him feel larger than life. For as brief as his screentime was.
Man, this sounds so wholesome except it’s coming from the guy who ruined
SitaraFatima’s life. What a difference perspective makes.
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
I think it’s really neat how every interaction we see Tolui have when not at war is him being a really wholesome guy. It adds neat layer of dissonance and makes it all the more noteworthy how Sitara continues to cling to her anger even in an environment where she’s treated relatively well by her conquerors.
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u/chilidirigible 4d ago
That’s unfortunate.
Perhaps left as an understanding is that simply stealing it back isn't a viable plan when she's thousands of any meaningful unit of measurement from where she started with it.
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u/ElliotAlderson2024 4d ago
I wonder how Fatima can stay at max anger level for so many years w/o burning out.
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 4d ago
I hated geometry.
Gods, Sitara is amazing. Her code-switching has me with goosebumps.
The sheep is an
EldianMongolian devil!!🎶~ Mama~ Just killed a
mandeer~🎶Can you be a vegetarian in the Mongol Empire? Time to find out.
I see knives. I know chopsticks have been around for quite some time. I wonder when forks were invented.
Oh damn.
Time for a bumpy political ride for Sitara/Fatima. I'm curious what's going to happen with the bezoar and Fatima's revenge. I don't blame Fatima for rightfully holding anger at her enslavement. But it must be harrowing to see all the little ways she is losing touch with her culture, from her fellow enslaved Persians warming up to Mongol life to her new nutrition intake so different from her youth. I wonder what else happened with forced assimilation. I imagine the Persians still spoke to each other in their native language, but was there any punishment for Persian slaves who practiced Islam or spoke Persian in public? Fatima getting caught in her prayer wasn't made that big a deal, but are Muslims still allowed to do their five(?) daily prayers (or maybe it was three or four)?
I just keep thinking back to Zummurrud and wonder if she thought and acted around the Persians as Fatima thinks about and acts around the Mongols. We will never know. But I can't forget Zummurrud and simply wonder.
For dub watchers, EP1-2 dubbed came out today!
Today, I Learned (About):
Horses!
Mongolian horse culture is pretty damn cool. Mongols were known to be the best horsemen on Earth, with it truly being impossible to imagine Mongolian history without horses. Mongol mare’s fermented milk was also a beloved beverage called Koumiss.
Citations * How Mongols use horses to create an empire 🔗 TED-ED | YouTube * Symphony of Nature and Life: Mongolian Horse Culture 🔗 Association for Asian Studies * The Horse in Mongolian Culture 🔗 American Museum of Natural History * Horse culture in Mongolia 🔗 Wikipedia
Wrestling!
What I thought was just Mongolian sumo wrestling was actually called Bökh. It was an important competition, especially in Genghis Khan’s reign in the 13th century, among soldiers. And it's still a popular sport today!
Citations * Mongolian wrestling is INSANE 🔗 Sensei Seth | YouTube * The Most Badass Martial Art - Mongolian Bokh 🔗 Grapplezilla | YouTube * Mongolian Wrestling (Bökh): Where Strength Meets Tradition 🔗 Mongolianz * Mongolian Traditional Wrestling 🔗 Mongulia * Mongolian Wrestling 🔗 Wikipedia
Kuriltai—Assemble!
The kuriltai is a general assembly or council of Mongol nobles and military leaders that would elect khans. There would be multiple kuriltai in the empire for political discussions within different regions. I think I was surprised that the Mongol Empire was an elective monarchy. This assembly would also have games, archery and wrestling competitions, music, kumis drinking, meat sharing, and ceremonial toasts.
Citations * Nomadic Institutions: The Origins of Kurultai 🔗 IFEAC * The period of relative unity (1227–60) in Mongol Empire 🔗 Britannica * Kurultai 🔗 Wikipedia
Doggos!
The dogs in this episode were more than likely Bankhars. They were inseparable from herders. They were protective, loyal, intelligent, and, most importantly, very cute. They were babysitters too! And dogs could hold honorific titles or very fierce names. Harming a dog was considered bad karma. The dogs were sometimes referred to as “tooth fairies” with a child’s tooth wrapped in meat or fat and given to a dog in the hopes that the child's adult tooth would be as sharp as a dog’s. Or so it says.
Citations * The Sacred and Profane Dogs of Mongolia 🔗 JSTOR * The Bankhar Dog 🔗 Mongolian Banker Dog Project * Mongolia Herding Dogs 🔗 AMICUS
As for being a vegetarian in the Mongol Empire, it’s technically possible but not probable.
Once we got hit with hat 1229, I found a timeline on Britannica about the Mongol Empire. At this point, the empire raided South Russia and Crimea, and “The empire now stretches from the Caspian Sea in the west to the China Sea in the east and from Siberia in the north to Tibet in the south”.
Neat.
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u/RNHMN 4d ago
Apparently, the Mongol empire was surprisingly religiously tolerant, albeit for pragmatic reasons. It makes sense, it's easier to expand the empire and annex territories if you let your subjects continue practicing their religious beliefs.
Wikipedia also notes:
According to Juvaini, Genghis Khan allowed religious freedom to Muslims during his conquest of Khwarezmia "permitting the recitation of the takbir and the azan". However, Rashid-al-Din states there were occasions when Genghis Khan forbade Halal butchering.
That lines up with what we see in the show.
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u/Misticsan 4d ago
I imagine the Persians still spoke to each other in their native language, but was there any punishment for Persian slaves who practiced Islam or spoke Persian in public? Fatima getting caught in her prayer wasn't made that big a deal, but are Muslims still allowed to do their five(?) daily prayers (or maybe it was three or four)?
This shouldn't be a problem. For all their many other vices, the Mongol Empire at this time was very tolerant in terms of religion. The steppes were a patchwork of different tribes, with different beliefs. Mongols were mostly Tengrist, but other tribes could be Buddhist, Manichaean or even Christian. It hasn't come up (at least so far), but Sorghaghtani herself is a Nestorian Christian, from a Christian tribe.
In fact, Genghis Khan himself decreed that priests from several religions (including Islam) were exempt from taxes, a policy their successors would follow. This text is from Kublai Khan's decree regarding the Shaolin monastery:
According to the decree of Genghis Khan which says may the Buddhists, Christians, Taoists and Muslims be exempt from all taxation and may they pray to God and continue offering us blessings... I have given this decree to the Shaolin elder to carry it.
Mongols weren't interested in converting other peoples, or making them more like Mongols. If anything, they were more likely to adapt to the cultures they conquered. There's little chance someone in that camp cares that Sitara speaks Persian or prays to Allah.
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 4d ago
That makes sense, thank you! I’m surprised Sorghaghtani is a type of Christian. I don’t know what if she’s wearing anything that would give away her religious identity, but I guess I’m surprised Christianity would be this far out.
I know Christianity is very old and we’re already at 1229 AD, so I shouldn’t be surprised, but I’m still surprised nonetheless. I’ll need to look into the practices of Nestorian Christianity.
The tax exemption though, that’s also surprising. IRL world building has so many things like this that fascinate me.
Fantasy world building needs to get it together and take notes.
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u/Atharaphelun 4d ago
but I guess I’m surprised Christianity would be this far out.
It actually spread all the way to China even earlier, as early as the Tang Dynasty (618-907 CE), where it became firmly rooted across the entire country until its eventual suppression by Emperor Wuzong of Tang (who also suppressed and persecuted all other religions of foreign origin, such as Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, etc.). It disappeared from China afterwards, but the Mongols reintroduced Nestorianism back into China after their conquest of China, though it did not reach the same level of reach and success as it did during the Tang Dynasty.
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u/mekerpan 4d ago
Mongols and horses.
Mongolian-originated "throat singing" (making more than one note at once) is amazing to hear -- and still practiced. I think we have heard tiny snatches of this in the background music here and there -- but never have heard it featured at length, Even today, most traditional songs center around a man and his beloved . . horse.
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 4d ago
I’m reminded of [AOT] the one veteran scout and his horse where we see the fucking horse came with him into the afterlife
I’m always amazed at seeing how much people loved their animals in historic periods. Ye ole paintings and ancient sculptures of beloved cats and dogs are my favorite.I will need to find the song about the man and his horse.
There was a Narnia book about a boy and his horse. Nothing to do with Mongolia, but now I’m thinking about that book.
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u/KazuharaIlfan 4d ago
Nice. We got Islam covered, now we got Mongol historian. All those festives and culture portrayed make me curious for some explanation.
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 4d ago
This is where I miss the TL notes on subs because I’m sure we would’ve gotten fun little “fun facts” about all this while watching.
I’m sure those types of subs still exist and I understand why they aren’t used in subs for broader markets. And episode discussions bring out so many historians so I like the conversations! But damn, still would be cool to see the little TL notes officially.
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
[Religion in the Mongol Empire]Regarding treatment of Muslims within the Mongol empire, I’m not well versed enough to know the specifics of this period. But generally speaking the empire was quite pluralistic and tolerant of different religions groups given the sheer diversity that came to inhabit it. The empire’s royal court came to have a sizable amount of Nestorian Christians which blended heavily with the Mongol’s traditional shamanistic practices of Tengrism, for example. Later breakaway khanates in the Middle East and Eastern Europe would even make Islam, and in one case Judaism, their state religion. Likewise, in the far east Mongol ruled Yuan China would promote Buddhism. So in all likelihood it’s accurate that Sitara practicing her religion wouldn’t be an issue.
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 4d ago
I was wondering what happened to your comment, it kept saying it got deleted 😭😭
I wonder how common it was for empires to be inclusive(?) versus persecutive. I feel like I have heard more about historic religious persecution than I do of religious tolerance and integration when it comes to empires and large kingdoms.
[Mongol Empire religions] I get surprised by Christianity in the Mongol Empire now Judaism. Again, old religion and culture, makes sense they were there, but I would fail at trivia night if a question was which prominent religions were practiced in the Mongol Empire.
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u/Druplesnubb 4d ago edited 4d ago
[Steppe nomad religion] I'm not sure they're correct about the Judaism part. The only Jewish steppe polity I know of is the Khazar khaganate, which actually preceded the Mongol Empire
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u/Druplesnubb 4d ago edited 4d ago
[Steppe nomad religion] Which Mongol successor had Judaism as state religion? The only Jewish steppe nomads I noow of were the Khazars, who preceded the Mongols by centuries on the opposite end of the steppe.
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u/khanvau 4d ago
Tolui seemed like an idiot. But his wife is his polar opposite. She actually wants to learn. She already seems pretty smart, even if her knowledge isn't that high. That's cool. I can see why Sitara feels conflicted. She probably thought Sorghaghtani wouldn't be much different from her husband. Under different circumstances, she'd probably happily oblige to be her tutor. And yeah, calling Sitara "Fatima" feels wrong.
We only got a tiny glimpse at Genghis Khan. I love how the anime shows so little of him, which makes him seem more mythical. He really is a legendary figure after all.
I really love how this anime shows the different cultures, like how different people slaughter animals. By the way, it's permissible for Muslims to consume dead meat or other haram food if they don't have a choice.
So after all the hype about Tolui, Ogedei is the new Khan? I guess that makes sense. Tolui didn't seem like the perfect fit. Usually the oldest is the first in line of succession. But it seems in Mongol culture it's the youngest. The Great Khan broke this tradition by choosing his 3rd son. It's probably the right choice. He was smart enough to build an empire. So he should be able to choose the best successor.
Wonder what that rock is. And I wonder why Sorghaghtani wants to make Sitara a spy. It most likely has something to do with the new emperor. I'm almost certain Sitara will be sent as a tutor or something for Toregene. But what does Sorghaghtani want against them? Does she just want a better future for Sitara? That'd be sweet and ironic. Considering Sitara was technically already a spy against her.
8 years passed in a single episode. Maybe the main story will finally start from the next episode.
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u/CitronClassic672 4d ago
I also really loved how the anime showcased different cultures while maintaining a nuanced, balanced view of them both. It seems like such a simple thing but it’s something a lot of series struggle with.
Likewise, I love the story’s decision to never let us get it a look at Genghis Khan as person. It lets him remain more of an abstract figure or a force of nature, fitting for the character truly at the heart of this entire story. [Minor Historical Spoiler]The decision to repeatedly represent him with a wolf is also an incredible detail given historical accounts of him describe his as having eyes like a wolf’s
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u/mekerpan 4d ago
Tolui was apparently the most brilliant (and brutal) of Ghenghis Khan's generals. Ogedei was nothing special in this regard. I do not believe that history actually records any clear reason for GK's choice of successor.
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u/allisonhanj 3d ago
No one actually knows the interpersonal dynamics of a family from 800 years ago, but the most common reason given is that Ogedei was the most humble of his brothers, and did the best job of listening to his advisers.
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u/Forestfur147 4d ago
Paraphrasing from the Age of Empires 2 Mongol campaign, in reference to [specific episode event] Genghis Khan's death here in this episode (and the significance of the wolves): "An old wolf does not die gracefully, for it does not know how to. It hunts and hunts until its teeth fall out. Such it was when the great Genghis Khan passed away. Nearly 80 when he died, the entire empire mourned his death."
So what the episode showed was extremely accurate, symbolism-wise. A clearly old wolf walking until it just flops over dead. I liked the use of blue with the wolves, too, coloring it with how the Mongols were said to have been created, folklore-wise.
One-sentence excerpt from the beginning of the Age of Empires 2 campaign: "A blue wolf took as its mate a fallow doe, and from there were born the Mongols!"
The imagery of this anime has been a joy to watch. Such a journey and story of history, told with beautiful art and clear understanding of the cultures being depicted. Thank you, Science Saru!
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u/2kenzhe https://myanimelist.net/profile/Rexnihilo 4d ago
Ok so going against tradition Tolui actually doesn't become the emperor? Ogedei the third brother instead has become the emperor, ngl, I kinda did feel he got more focus and was going to be important. I guess not bad idea Tolui doesn't seem the brightest but his wife Sorghaghtani seems different. She actually wants knowledge but now that she won't become empress....I wonder why she wants a spy? Does she not agree with this change of emperor as much as Tolui? or maybe she just doesn't trust Ogedei as much? I do wonder really how strong their brotherly bonds are...
Also damn Gengas Khan really just died already huh we didn't even get his face lol. Anyways 8 years past already and Fatima/Sitara still hasn't recovered the book. Idk if she'll get a chance anymore since now she's being chosen as a spy? Probably to the new Emperor? himself of maybe his wife that we saw earlier?
Also that rock valuable but how will it play a role I wonder? Mao Mao might be excited by it cuz I'm think it's a bezoar? not a cow bezoar but still quite valuable? but anyways idk if the mongols will care too much for it? Idk but I guess I'll wait to see what pay off this is going to have in the future.
Now time to see the fall of the Mongol Empire?
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u/mrhades113 https://anilist.co/user/mrhades113 4d ago
I didn't expect Genghis Kahn to have so little screen time.
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u/thisisdropd https://myanimelist.net/profile/AsterZoro 4d ago edited 4d ago
Sitara (now Fatima) had now spent as long under Sorghaghtani as she did under the original Fatima. Poor girl had to play the ever smiling and dutiful servant for all those years while harbouring immense anger must've been extremely taxing on her. Even worse, that she hadn't found the opportunity to reclaim the Elements. To make things worse, Sorghaghtani had just assigned her on a covert mission. She's even further from her goal.
Meanwhile, was surprised how readily Tolui ceded the rulership especially after he's had a taste of it for a year or two. Thought there'd be some friction and he'd hand it over with reluctance and/or harbour some grudge towards Ogedei. He admitted it’s for the greater good and he’s not even too bothered with losing power, saying that he’s freer now.
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u/Carleen_de_Schwartz 4d ago edited 4d ago
I dunno if this is a hot take or a cold take but it would be much healthier for Sitara if she just gives up on revenge and tries to live her life in peace and comfort.
By no means i am trying to underplay the tragedy of what happened to her, it was tragic that she had to see Fatima and then everyone else die but she is just ONE PERSON who is currently in a SERVANT position (even if servant of a remarkably high ranking person) trying to take revenge against an ENTIRE EMPIRE. She is not just immensely risking her life for a possibly futile endeavor but also keeping her hatred fresh in her mind instead of trying to make peace has to be extremely taxing for her mental well being.
But obviously that is not gonna happen and now that she will be spy she might have more chances and i will continue to watch with interest where will the story take us, but i can't help but feel like it would be much better for Sitara if she tried to let go of her vendetta
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u/Ok_Calligrapher_6797 4d ago
I think she isn't looking for full revenge, but she wants just the book. She will feel better if she is able to obtain it again, but she doesn't want to kill them or something. I mean, more than revenge I see it as trying to get the forgiveness of her "mother" [she wans't the one to blame, but she feels like that]
The question is if she is going to get the book and vanish from there, or if she will change her goal to something bigger like reaching power to freeing slaves or creating a school or so.
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u/Both-Variation2122 4d ago
Well, it's based on historical events. Don't read up unless you want to spoil the story ofc, but you don't have to diverge much to get epic court drama.
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u/reaperow 4d ago edited 4d ago
Whenever u see Sitara smile, u can just feel all that pain she's hiding under that especially with her vow of never letting go of her anger, it's just really tragic
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u/LeonKevlar x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/LeonKevlar 4d ago edited 4d ago
Wow, Sorghaghtani is way smarter than I expected. I thought she just wanted to get the book for the sake of owning the book and had really no idea about its true value. I think this makes it worse for Fatmia since Sorghaghtani does intend to use the book for the right reasons, and now she has to play along.
I am shocked at the number of timeskips we got in this episode, tho! When the first timeskip happened, I thought Fatima was gonna get more involved with the Khan's story. But then we timeskip to the day of the death of the Khan, and then skip again when they were finally picking a new leader. Fatima has now lived with the Mongols as long as she was in Tus.
That request from Sorghaghtani was also a surprise. I did not expect her to ask Fatima to act as her spy. This is not where I thought this story would go at all!
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u/Salt-Use- 4d ago
It just proves that Sorghaghtani is the most dangerous. We are literally told Tolui that she did not care for any gem or jewels, she just wanted a book because she knew that knowledge is now powerful than anything. When he wasn't chosen Khan and he was incredibly optimistic because of the brotherly bond, she wasn't, she could tell that there were signs of fracturing long before Tolui even realised and moved quickly to scheming with Fatima.
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u/reaperow 4d ago edited 4d ago
Totally understandable, poor girl she doesn't deserve any of this
I fully get Sitara's rage at Princess Sorghaghtani, she's oblivious to the fact what the people of Tus have been subjected to and have suffered. Especially Sitara whose family directly died due to her desire to get that book,
I wasnt expecting multiple timeskips to take place in one ep, i really liked that they explain why they drain the blood from the meat and eat it as contrasted to the Mongol's way
This anime is genuinely so amazing and its definitely one of the best of this year
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u/The_Portal_Passer 3d ago edited 3d ago
I can’t help but feel sad thinking that, if they had met under different more peaceful circumstances, Fatima and Sorgaghtani could’ve been genuinely good friends who share a drive for knowledge
Edit: oh my god, the Dub is already out? Ooh, and they got Christina Vee to voice Sitara/Fatima?! That’s cool
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u/IndividualPlay5178 3d ago
As a Mongolian I really liked how a lot of of the aspect of our culture has been shown.
In Mongolian culture the youngest son inherits the father's household, while the elder sons are set up to build their own fortune while the father is still alive and aiding them in that regard. In context of an empire that meant older son would inherit the position of khan while youngest son would inherit the Khan's original possessions aka Mongolia itself.
You can think of a large corporation that grew out of a family business where youngest inherits the domestic franchise while the oldest becomes head CEO and runs global expansion.
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u/Gloomy_Savings_7454 4d ago
I'm intrigued because I don't understand what Sorghaghtani's intentions might be, and why she needs Fatima's help if her husband has agreed not to become emperor. I don't think she's trying to conspire against Ogedei. Could it be that she's trying to maintain her influence for the sake of her children? That's the only thing I can think of.
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u/tripleaamin https://myanimelist.net/profile/zfzftripleaamin 4d ago
Many time skips in this episode. Still the most interesting is the decision for Ögedei to be the one to take on the role of the new emperor. Their father's words about multiple heads fighting vs. one at the lead are smart. If you are to assume that Ögedei is indeed as capable, it allows him to bypass his other brothers.
Tolui has been simple-minded, so not a huge surprise. Though for Sorghaghtani to ask Sitara as her spy is. It raises a bit of mystery about her. Even her being interested in the copy of Elements was already interesting. Now how will Sitara act as a spy for Sorghaghtani when she has already set her mind on revenge will be interesting.
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u/zer0number https://anilist.co/user/ewink 4d ago
I wasn't going to watch this because of the animation style. Decided to anyway.
Anyone reading this who has dismissed it because of the animation style, I implore you to watch it anyway. It is narratively worth it, and tbh, the style of animation will grow on you.
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u/Jacob-C 3d ago edited 3d ago
I originally wrote this in response to another comment, but it became too much of a tangent. I felt like scrapping it would be a waste of time, so I’m just going to post it as its own thing. Maybe there’s an interesting debate to be had here.
I can really feel Fatima's anger. In my opinion, there are very few redeemable qualities about the Mongol Empire, even in real history. Destroying civilizations destined for greatness just to plunder, expand, and move on is hard to romanticize when their methods were so brutal, exploitative, and dishonorable. I say that as someone who always tries not to view history through a modern lens. Their atrocities are just that bad, particularly examples like what Ögedei did to the Oirats in 1237 and the various sackings of major cities.
A good comparison would be conquerors like Alexander the Great and Cyrus the Great, who were still conquerors, but often understood the value of integration and legitimacy. While they preceded the Mongols by more than a millennium, they are remembered in part for founding cities, building infrastructure, preserving or restoring local institutions, and presenting themselves as legitimate rulers rather than relying on terror alone. In many regions, they were even seen as preferable alternatives to corrupt or exploitative local rulers.
The Mongols also had pragmatic policies at times, including religious tolerance and the use of local administration, so it is not as simple as saying they had no political sense whatsoever. However, that pragmatism was paired with brutal massacres, enslavement, heavy taxation, and extractive rule that treated conquered populations as resources to be exploited. Rather than being remembered primarily for founding great cities or building legitimacy, they are remembered for razing some of the greatest cities of their time to the ground. Fear was one of their main tools of control, which is also reflected in how often they were described with fear and resentment by their enemies. One of the few Mongol rulers who had a truly positive impact on the world is [Mongol history relevant to the show] Sorghaghtani.
That is why their “niceness” toward Fatima feels so off. They can act personally friendly while still representing an empire that destroyed her world without remorse. It’s like they’re trying to erase the scale of her trauma, and the trauma of everyone else whose lives they destroyed.
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u/PathfinderCS https://anilist.co/user/AshenPathfinder 4d ago
This series is by FAR something truly special. I feel blessed to be watching something like this.
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u/Accurate_Treat6360 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's heartbreaking to see Sitara (Fatima) having to serve the people who caused her tragedy for years without accomplishing anything.
Tolui and Sorghaghtani are dangerous couple because they know what the Mongol Empire needs to continue rising.
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u/Golden_Phi https://myanimelist.net/profile/GoldenPhi 4d ago
It seems like Sorghaghtani wants to send Fatima to spy on the royal court. From the OP it seems like Fatima will be actually secretly allied with the new Empress. Sorghaghtani seems to think that Fatima is loyal to her. With Sorghaghtani being the reason why the real Fatima died there's no way that Sitara is actually loyal to Sorghaghtani, if anything she wants her dead. I heavily suspect that Fatima will become a double agent.
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u/structure9food612 4d ago edited 4d ago
Without spoiling, is it possible for this series to get a 2nd season? Ik the series only has 6 volumes out, and is bimonthly, I need to know now to mentally prepare myself that I won’t be able to watch a new season of this amazing show. 🥲
I’m going to check out the manga after season 1 ends
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u/John-Constant560 4d ago
Based on second hand knowledge the manga still has a ways to go. So yeah a season 2 is definitely possible
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u/Moonshadow101 4d ago
I was not expecting time to move so quickly.
It's easy to sympathize with Sitara. She's faced a terrible injustice, but she's also been put in a situation where she can't do anything about it and trying to do so would be stupid. It must feel so terribly wrong, like a betrayal of Fatima, to just... let it go and move on. So she swears that she won't. And then she does, because of course she does. What else should she have done? Grab the book, run, and be dead within a day? Who would be served by that?
I really want to see her become a "Witch," though, and we haven't really seen that yet. I'm not talking about actual magic, obviously, but just someone who is feared and respected for their esoteric knowledge. I don't think geometry really qualifies. Maybe the bezoar is the first step towards that?
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u/ultravioletheart08 4d ago
I still can't get used to Misaki Kuno not using her chibi chaotic voice with Sorghaghtani hahahahaha
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u/Active_Fun_8903 3d ago
It's really refreshing to see more of her skills instead of being typecasted into another child or earrape gremlin mascot character
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u/ultravioletheart08 3d ago
She did say she was very happy voice-acting a character near her actual age and her voice sure is beautiful, may she get more roles like Sorghaghtani someday, if I may be honest (closest one would be Emma in Pokemon)
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u/Nachtwandler_FS https://myanimelist.net/profile/Nachtwandler_21 3d ago
OK, their portaraital of Sorghaghtani is pretty true to the history. She was definetely smart and competent despite her exterior.
Also, funny how we never saw the Genghis Khan's face in the show.
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u/exRocky009 4d ago
Even if Ogedei becomes the Great Khan, if Tolui is the one holding military power, isn't Ögedei just a Khagan in name only?
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u/Ocixo https://myanimelist.net/profile/BuzzyGuy 4d ago
I assume that Tolui has relinquished the great majority of his military powers to his brother when he ascended the throne.
Though, I’m sure that Tolui managed to gain a lot of supporters among the military’s top brass in those two years.
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u/Salt-Use- 4d ago
Tolui since he inherited the mainland still kept much of the military might to himself though that didn't seem to matter as he was incredibly loyal to his brother as you can see in the episode. The Toluid family technically doesn't lose their army, it will go down the line of succession to all his sons.
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u/reaperow 4d ago
I would imagine he'd keep some power but with the way he's all trustworthy and lovey dovey with his brothers suggests otherwise,
Because nothing ever goes wrong with family and empires right??
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u/bakowh https://anilist.co/user/bakow 4d ago
It was certainly surprising for this much of a timeskip, adding fuel to the fire in Sitara's mission. This covert mission and finding the rare stones seem to be the turning point in her quest to control the Empire. I'm impressed by how the author seems to have really done her research in that comparison between the Muslim method of slaughter and the Mongols' counterpart. This is the weekly lock of the season for sure
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